The Dragon is always male?

[idiostock]

I saw some mentions of Jordan explicitly saying that the Dragonsoul is always a man. Can anyone find the quote itself?

 

I think that's kind of lame.

[mb]

Do not have an exact quote. All Heroes (of which Lews Therin was/is one) I take to have the same gender each rebirth.

[Byzantine279]

A soul has a gender attached to it, so Rand is always male, brigette always female, etc (this holds true for normal people as well). RJ did not confirm or deny that "the champion of the light" in some turnings might indeed be a woman, he simply stated it was outside the scope he intended to cover with the WoT.

[dobraine]

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

 

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

Re: Female Dragon..NO when a female Hero is needed she is one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

Let's try and clear some of this up... I can't remember the exact question, but from what I read in this thread, it doesn't matter (I haven't read the Female Dragon thread). RJ said that, no, it is not possible to have a female Dragon. If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

He also said that a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender, therefore the Dragon is ALWAYS male.

 

There ya go!The Theoryland quote db is awesome.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

It's too bad. I wonder why RJ felt so strongly about shutting down that possibility.

[Erunion]

It's tied into the cosmology - The ability to channel (Saidin or Saidar) is tied to gender and the soul. In order to prevent paradoxes and whatnot, each soul has a pre-assigned gender that they are born with.

 

However, it is possible to have a female "Dragon" (that is, leader of the forces of the light), and her name is probably Ameresu. Which I think is pretty cool. If RJ had lived to re-visit the world, a story about a turning where Ameresu is the champion of the light would be fun.

[Sharaman]

Now we know why the GLoD wants to get hold of him. Then he can do a Halima-rangar to LTT-Rand.

[Vermillion]

It's tied into the cosmology - The ability to channel (Saidin or Saidar) is tied to gender and the soul. In order to prevent paradoxes and whatnot, each soul has a pre-assigned gender that they are born with.

 

However, it is possible to have a female "Dragon" (that is, leader of the forces of the light), and her name is probably Ameresu. Which I think is pretty cool. If RJ had lived to re-visit the world, a story about a turning where Ameresu is the champion of the light would be fun.

 

I think he was saying that the Dragon is always male. But maybe in other ages there is a female champion that defeats whatever other threat.

[Morsker]

I don't see a problem with this. If there were a female Dragon, there'd be an Age where saidar is tainted, and it wouldn't just be a mirror image, because men can't link and are much less likely to have Healing, among other differences. It would be pretty terrible overall, never mind the risk of widespread misogyny.

[Agitel]

It's tied into the cosmology - The ability to channel (Saidin or Saidar) is tied to gender and the soul. In order to prevent paradoxes and whatnot, each soul has a pre-assigned gender that they are born with.

 

However, it is possible to have a female "Dragon" (that is, leader of the forces of the light), and her name is probably Ameresu. Which I think is pretty cool. If RJ had lived to re-visit the world, a story about a turning where Ameresu is the champion of the light would be fun.

 

I think he was saying that the Dragon is always male. But maybe in other ages there is a female champion that defeats whatever other threat.

 

To me it sounds like it's an either or, depending on what the Wheel feels is best needed for a correction mechanism.

[MasterAblar]

I don't see a problem with this. If there were a female Dragon, there'd be an Age where saidar is tainted, and it wouldn't just be a mirror image, because men can't link and are much less likely to have Healing, among other differences. It would be pretty terrible overall, never mind the risk of widespread misogyny.

 

Why would they be less likely to have healing?

[yoniy0]

RJ didn't seem to be too worried about gender equality. If you'd ask him on it, I have a feeling he'd say something about a woman who's worth anything not needing a man to protect her. I think his theme was cooperation between the sexes, not that they're interchangeable. Hence - no need for a female Dragon. The women can hold their own without it.

[OptimusPrime]

Hey, you never know, Rand and Cyndane might cross balefires, giving Rand access to saidar...

[chuckievi]

Hey, you never know, Rand and Cyndane might cross balefires, giving Rand access to saidar...

 

S/S/TP super channeler!

[AvroChris]

Amerasu sounds far too much like a dessert...

[Agitel]

Amerasu sounds far too much like a dessert...

 

Or the Japanese sun goddess.

 

Is there any chance we misunderstand the cosmology? Perhaps LTT was/is the champion because, for that turning, he was the best fit. Maybe the Wheel could use a different hero if it felt it to be appropriate for the events, or maybe even none at all if it didn't compute it to be necessary. Heroes are correction devices, after all. Neither the Fourth Age scholars nor Ishamael are necessarily authorities on this, and it's certainly understandable how the role of the dragon has become almost religion in the fourth age. Has RJ said it's always LTT/Rand for this fight?

[Erunion]

No, I don't think he has. It's quite possible that the pattern looked at it's events and decided "hey, let's use this dude to fix things, he'd work best this time around."

Maybe next time a different hero will be chosen than the "Dragon" soul. However, that "Dragon" soul will always be male. So you'll never have Lucy Therin Telamon, but you might have a female hero chosen to stop the DO during the Second Age.

[Pygmalion79]

This seems like much ado about nothing. Do we care if Artur Hawkwing is always male? Then why care if Lews Therin / Rand is always male? That is what we are asking when we ask if the Dragon is always male. "Dragon" isn't a title for whomever the Light decides to use to fight the Dark One; it's a title for a specific hero. The Pattern has both male and female heroes and if it wants a female hero then it will spin out the Japanese sun goddess or whomever to fight the DO and if it wants a male hero it will spin out some male hero such as the Dragon. Now, someone might wish to argue about the whole idea of souls possessing a designated sex. Always Sunny will probably want to lead that discussion when s/he catches up with us. But then focusing on the Dragon is a red herring.