Why Destroy the Choedan Kal?

[Elan Tedronai]

the dark one will be fighting behind a prison with a small tiny hole in it.

Do you have confirmation of that?

yes. the dark one will never win. how do i know that? outtrigger novels.

The Dark One not winning does not confirm from where he fights. And the outrigger novels only confirm that he does not win this time.

By "confirmation" I meant that the author confirmed it.

 

 

that's the whole point. if the dark one does not win, it means the bore will be sealed. this means the dark one will be fighting like i said earlier. behind a prison with a small hole in it. You don't need the author to tell you that!

[Elan Tedronai]

The CK was destroyed because it was simply too much power for one individual to have. We saw how easy it was for the Shadow to free Semirhage. The could attain it in a similar manner.

 

Secondly, any usage of the CK is an instant beacon and bulls-eye as it alerts every male channeler where Rand is exactly.

 

Thirdly, the CK was never necessary. It was not needed to seal the bore in the War of Power nor is it apparently needed now. Rand notes that it's not referenced in the Prophecies in "Veins of Gold."

 

 

too much power for a single person? c'mon now. When the aes sedai in AOL built not one but two of them, no one thought it was too much for one person. no one thought that 'oh shit ishy and co are going to jump on the person who is channelling it' And this is when we had an age filled with aes sedai and dreadlords. No one was worried because one there would be protection for the person channelling the kal and two even if you cut through, how are you going to face a person who has enough of the power to kill you a million times over?

 

 

Yes the kal is and was never necessary for sealing the bore. But without the kal men channellers would be going mad to this day. If LPD and co didnt create the kal and simply opposed LTT, the world would have been in a much worse condition.

 

The kal in the hands of logain or narishma would practically make all of the shadow forces irrelevant whereas rand does his thing in shayol ghul. But ofcourse it wouldn't be a battle. Instead it would be a slaughtering.

 

that's the real reason the kal has been destroyed.

[Agitel]

so if zen rand had the power of the kal in his hands right now, he's going to turn to despair and frustration again lol?

 

A sangreal is a sangreal. It amplies the power and gives an aura of invincibility. Nothing more. You won't turn to padan fain if you are channelling the kal.

 

The kal has been taken out because the baddies would be at a serious disadvantage. You would need the great lord himself in battle to face someone who has the kal.

 

That's not at all what I was implying. Sheesh, seriously, you guys. Within twenty-four hours he nearly wiped out hundreds of thousands of people and then nearly destroyed all of creation. It was insane Rand who was too blind/uncaring to destroy something that has that power, it was zen Rand who did. Just because he went to being zen Rand didn't make the horror of what he almost did any less poignant (in fact I think sanity would make it more so), nor does it make him immune from mistakes or something different from a man.

 

As for the Choedan Kal, the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were very wary about their use, and there were huge arguments over it and whether they would even work or whether someone would truly be able to use them. They never were tested.

[mb]

that's the whole point. if the dark one does not win, it means the bore will be sealed. this means the dark one will be fighting like i said earlier. behind a prison with a small hole in it. You don't need the author to tell you that!

Actually, it does need author confirmation since I can see other possibilities which I posted somewhat recently.

The post::

My guess would be there would be like a partial release during Tarmon Gaidon; like the Dark One possessing a body (miasma, creature, person, statue, etc). Dark side winning Tarmon Gaidon, Dark One becoming entirely free.

The Creator interfering sometime during Tarmon Gaidon might be another possibility.

[icspots]

 

When the Dark One comes out, his powers/abilities might be much greater than they are now.

 

Undoubtedly when the seals are destroyed and the bore is opened the Dark One will have an increased.... influence on the world at large. Remember though that in the Age of Legends from the time the bore was drilled to the time that LTT and the Hundred Companions sealed it was hundreds of years. So it's not like the world will end the moment the bore is opened fully again.

[quick ben]

 

When the Dark One comes out, his powers/abilities might be much greater than they are now.

 

Undoubtedly when the seals are destroyed and the bore is opened the Dark One will have an increased.... influence on the world at large. Remember though that in the Age of Legends from the time the bore was drilled to the time that LTT and the Hundred Companions sealed it was hundreds of years. So it's not like the world will end the moment the bore is opened fully again.

 

+1

Have to agree with you here..

I believe a lot of people may forget the length of time that the bore was open for in the AOL

[Muad Cheade]

too much power for a single person? c'mon now. When the aes sedai in AOL built not one but two of them, no one thought it was too much for one person. no one thought that 'oh shit ishy and co are going to jump on the person who is channelling it' And this is when we had an age filled with aes sedai and dreadlords. No one was worried because one there would be protection for the person channelling the kal and two even if you cut through, how are you going to face a person who has enough of the power to kill you a million times over?

Apart from Rand, is there anyone (i.e. male channeler) who he can trust absolutely with that kind of power? Logain was a False Dragon like Taim. Narishma is said to be "the one who follows." The vagueness of that title could mean anything. And those are the two loyal Asha'man we know the most about.

 

Yes, it allows limitless power but as we saw with Rand, handling that amount needs absolute concentration and with the shifting momentum of a battle and the ease in which a male channeler could attack with the pinpoint accuracy of the wielder's location.

 

Yes the kal is and was never necessary for sealing the bore. But without the kal men channellers would be going mad to this day. If LPD and co didnt create the kal and simply opposed LTT, the world would have been in a much worse condition.

Yes, it would have been in a worse condition but the Light would still have a chance. The lack of its mention in the Prophecies implies that the Light would still have the same chance to win regardless of its use in the cleansing. It doesn't say that saidin had to be clean for Rand to win. It certainly helps but is not necessary.

 

The kal in the hands of logain or narishma would practically make all of the shadow forces irrelevant whereas rand does his thing in shayol ghul. But ofcourse it wouldn't be a battle. Instead it would be a slaughtering.

Or...as Rand notes, the war won't be won on the battlefield. The Shadow can always throw more Shadowspawn than the Light can kill. Also, unless the CK is guarded constantly (and even that may not be enough), the Shadow could easily recover it. What would happen then?

[mb]

My comment "When the Dark One comes out" maybe this would be more accurate:: "When all Seals are broken"

[plague fiend]

To use Callandor to it's full potential, you have to link with a member of the opposite sex. When have the Chosen Ones EVER worked together like that? Maybe with Moridin having mind trapped Moghedian and Cyndane he would link, but I doubt it.

 

I have the feeling that Callandor is like a Light-made weapon. Sure the CK was more powerful in terms of raw power, but Callandor is a weapon of good and pure Light. The DO cannot be beaten with conventional means, he must be killed with Light. It's clear from the Strike at Shayol Ghul that trapping the DO with the CK would not have worked, it would have tainted both sources of power and possibly destroyed the world when both Aes Sedai went mad. There is something about Callandor that goes beyond just pure strength and brute force.

I have a couple of question about your statements. Doesn't it take two women and one man to use Callandor properly? In order to taint Saidar, wouldn't a woman channeling have to had been present when LT and the men sealed the DO prison?

[capuga]

To use Callandor to it's full potential, you have to link with a member of the opposite sex. When have the Chosen Ones EVER worked together like that? Maybe with Moridin having mind trapped Moghedian and Cyndane he would link, but I doubt it.

 

I have the feeling that Callandor is like a Light-made weapon. Sure the CK was more powerful in terms of raw power, but Callandor is a weapon of good and pure Light. The DO cannot be beaten with conventional means, he must be killed with Light. It's clear from the Strike at Shayol Ghul that trapping the DO with the CK would not have worked, it would have tainted both sources of power and possibly destroyed the world when both Aes Sedai went mad. There is something about Callandor that goes beyond just pure strength and brute force.

I have a couple of question about your statements. Doesn't it take two women and one man to use Callandor properly? In order to taint Saidar, wouldn't a woman channeling have to had been present when LT and the men sealed the DO prison?

 

LTT did not use Callandor (or any angreal that is mentioned). LTT and the 100 companions worked together (not linked because men need a woman to link) placing their weaves together to place the seals.

[MasterAblar]

The CK was destroyed because it was simply too much power for one individual to have. We saw how easy it was for the Shadow to free Semirhage. The could attain it in a similar manner.

 

Secondly, any usage of the CK is an instant beacon and bulls-eye as it alerts every male channeler where Rand is exactly.

 

Thirdly, the CK was never necessary. It was not needed to seal the bore in the War of Power nor is it apparently needed now. Rand notes that it's not referenced in the Prophecies in "Veins of Gold."

 

 

too much power for a single person? c'mon now. When the aes sedai in AOL built not one but two of them, no one thought it was too much for one person. no one thought that 'oh shit ishy and co are going to jump on the person who is channelling it' And this is when we had an age filled with aes sedai and dreadlords. No one was worried because one there would be protection for the person channelling the kal and two even if you cut through, how are you going to face a person who has enough of the power to kill you a million times over?

 

 

Yes the kal is and was never necessary for sealing the bore. But without the kal men channellers would be going mad to this day. If LPD and co didnt create the kal and simply opposed LTT, the world would have been in a much worse condition.

 

The kal in the hands of logain or narishma would practically make all of the shadow forces irrelevant whereas rand does his thing in shayol ghul. But ofcourse it wouldn't be a battle. Instead it would be a slaughtering.

 

that's the real reason the kal has been destroyed.

 

Actually LTT said that he, among others, opposed the building of the CK because, not only could that much power not be trusted to any one person (too powerful, too frightening he said), but also because strength alone was not enough to defeat the DO. And a person channelling that much power is still just one person, with two eyes and two ears. A dagger in the back will work just as well on that person as on one who is not channelling such a huge amount of power.

[JohnathonOliva]

ok there are many reasons why it was destroyed the most common already pointed out

 

rand almost destroyed all of reality with it and that kind of power was way to tempting and those of you refering to zen rand, well the destruction of the CK was the tipping point that lead to zen rand.

 

the use of OUR realiztic nature of using nukes as a weapon doesn't apply AT ALL to the book the idea is to go by the BOOKS logic and going by book logic if rand bacame the kind of person who relied on power(power that wasn't even his own) then what good is he as a ruler he would be no diffrent than any other channeler i mean if CK was going to win the battle for the light then might as well give logain the CK and let rand and co. go home.

by book logic the DO needs to be defeated by more than just RAW power and the rand before the destruction of CK was in no way up to the task.

 

Also rand before the destruction of CK wasn't far different from the forsaken rand would do ANYTHING to win even if it meant killing innocents the forsaken would also do ANYHTING to win the destruction of the CK is what gave rand the push he needed to become the leader to lead the fight against the DO the complete opposite of the dark one he gave up power something anyone in contact with the DO would NEVER do.

[Luckers]

There are other oddities about the Choedan Kal--for instance that Shadar Haren doesn't have Elza take it when she takes the Domination Band. Or that Solinda, the Aes Sedai responsible for both having Callandor sealed in the Stone and for the Aiel taking the *'angreal and fleeing Paran Disen also had the Choedan Kal, yet it was Callandor she went out of her way to seal up in the Stone and see into the Dragons hands. A third is the Aes Sedai who took sa'angreal from the Aiel when planning to go fight Ishamael during the breaking ALSO did not take the Choedan Kal.

 

Three situations in which people who have every reason to look to the Choedan Kal have shown aversion to them. Perhaps they knew something we (and I suppose Lanfear and Asmodean) don't--and by inference, perhaps Rand's snap decision to turn his power back on the Choedan Kal was something driven by the Pattern itself. That some doom awaited the user of the Choedan Kal that Rand has now avoided.

 

There is an element in TofM which might allude to this also, albeit very tenuosly. As this is still a non-spoiler board they shall be hidden by spoiler tags. Unveil at your own risk.

 

 

The Borderlander prophecy seems to suggest that killing Dark Rand and leaving the world to lose to the Dark One is preferable to Dark Rand living to fight the Dark One... why?

 

[mb]

Why Shadar Haran did not have Elza take the Choedan Kal key? Perhaps because the Shadow first needed Rand. Had their plan succeeded, they might have had the Choedan Kal as well.

Perhaps also because Shadar Haran (and/or Dark One) suspected that she & Semirhage would have been destroyed.

[Luckers]

The Shadow does not need Rand to use the Choedan Kal. Nor was the Choedan Kal in Rand's possession necessary for their play to turn him.

 

But the point was more in that we have several incidences of aversion to the Choedan Kal. Yes we can postulate answers to each individually, but the fact is that these events seem to be piling up.

 

Just food for thought.

[Agitel]

The Shadow does not need Rand to use the Choedan Kal. Nor was the Choedan Kal in Rand's possession necessary for their play to turn him.

 

But the point was more in that we have several incidences of aversion to the Choedan Kal. Yes we can postulate answers to each individually, but the fact is that these events seem to be piling up.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Certainly the Shadow doesn't NEED Rand to use the Choedan Kal, but I do think the Dark One thought it more interesting that Rand had it than not. The Dark One's been ordering his Forsaken to take steps that will drive Rand mad. When the mad man breaks the more destructive power he has the better, right? Hell, even not thinking of destroying the Pattern, the chaos Rand could have wrought upon others and torn at his own soul without that Power would have been much to the Dark One's liking.

 

As for others not taking the Choedan Kal... I think they were just too terrified to use it, while at the same time too terrified to destroy them because they might be necessary at some point. Put it some place to be forgotten, in the hands of those who will not touch the things. Callandor was sealed up because of prophecy.

[PhoenixUK]

Cadsuane might be aware of Rand's former possession of the CK, but I'm not sure. But so far, in the T.O.M., their absence is completely overlooked.

 

Of course she knows he had them - he told her about them when they went to cleanse saidin. And she knows the female access key melted and that rand took the male one back after he banished cadsuane. No evidence that she knows he melted it though.

 

Of course, there may well be more access keys out there. There was a broken one in the Tanchico museum that Egwene touched in telaranrhiod and nynaeve nearly did in real life. Maybe there are intact ones too (but I doubt it, its not going to figure in AMOL).

[MasterAblar]

Cadsuane might be aware of Rand's former possession of the CK, but I'm not sure. But so far, in the T.O.M., their absence is completely overlooked.

 

Of course she knows he had them - he told her about them when they went to cleanse saidin. And she knows the female access key melted and that rand took the male one back after he banished cadsuane. No evidence that she knows he melted it though.

 

Of course, there may well be more access keys out there. There was a broken one in the Tanchico museum that Egwene touched in telaranrhiod and nynaeve nearly did in real life. Maybe there are intact ones too (but I doubt it, its not going to figure in AMOL).

 

Doesn't really matter anyway. The two sangreal statues are destroyed so the access keys are useless now.

[Orderofolde]

Here is what it says:

 

[page 1061]

...

I want to do it right this time.

The Power within him reached a crescendo, and he turned it upon itself, drove it through the access key. The ter'angreal was connected to a much greater force, a massive sa-angreal to the south, built to stop the Dark One. Too powerful, some had said. Too powerful ever to use. Too frightening.

Rand used its own power upon it, crushing the distant globe, shattering it as if in the grip of a giant's hands.

The Choedan Kal exploded.

The power winked out.

The tempest ended.

...

 

So, yes, PEOPLE (Who?) may have thought it was too powerful to use, but it didn't say that RAND thought it was too powerful to use. Though the only person here in this scene is Rand. Therefore I assume it had to have been Rand's opinion. With the characteristic narrative in Jordan's writings being 80% character thoughts and 3rd person narrative, and little to any dialog, I can only guess as to whether this was Rands thoughts, or the narrator's comments. I'm still left with a bitter aftertaste on my part that I have to play the part of editor to figure this out.

Don't forget that in TOM Egwene sees Rand struggling to tie the shards of a great crystal globe back together, and thinks it means something else, uniting the pieces of nations as are gathered at the field of merrilor. It might have significance that united the lands are more powerful than the CK, and uses something pictoral for great power we already know and recognize. Dreams are strange like that, we'll just have to wait it out and see.

[Kal-El814]

Rand nukes the CK for a few reasons, I think.

 

1) He'd drawn in a lot of the OP when he was thinking about destroying the world, and that had to go somewhere once he had his epiphany

2) He realizes that the OP in of itself isn't going to be enough to beat the DO at Tarmon Gai'don/to win the Last Battle

3) He believes in the prophecy and knows Callandor is going to be needed, not the CK

4) It had become too tempting to use

 

I think the latter is probably the most relevant. In ToM, Rand blasts an entire army of Shadowspawn away without the CK or Callandor. He doesn't need either to decimate an army. Still, once he leaves the battlefield he realizes that what he just did was dangerous, even as zen Rand. He's not going to use Callandor until it's needed and until he's got 2 female Aes Sedai he trusts. And even as zen Rand, there's an acknowledgment that he's not immune to anger, temptation, etc., which would tempt him to use the CK.

 

He's no longer struggling with himself, he's no longer grappling with a desire to spam Ultima every time there's a problem. He knows that power alone isn't going to cut it and on Dragonmount instead of destroying the world he destroys the tool he was going to use to that end. It was a symbolic destruction.

[mcbernier]

I personally still think it seemed stupid. I couldn't believe it when Rand destroyed them. It didn't seem justified, or reasonable. It did indeed feel as though he were destroying his best weapons. The point of the OP is, I think, that they really were the best weapons he had, and to destroy your best weapons requires A LOT of CLEAR justification to the reader. The CK cannot really be compared to Sauron's Ring, people--the Ring was corrupt in itself, forged through Sauron's malice, and thus was an active force of evil on whomever possessed it. But the CK was not corrupt in this sense at all.

 

I'm not saying that we as careful readers cannot spin a plausible psychological account for why "he had to destroy them." But it was pretty jarring when he did it, and not in a good way. More work should have been done to make clear exactly why Rand felt he needed to do this. As it was, it seemed stupid.

[Agitel]

I personally still think it seemed stupid. I couldn't believe it when Rand destroyed them. It didn't seem justified, or reasonable. It did indeed feel as though he were destroying his best weapons. The point of the OP is, I think, that they really were the best weapons he had, and to destroy your best weapons requires A LOT of CLEAR justification to the reader. The CK cannot really be compared to Sauron's Ring, people--the Ring was corrupt in itself, forged through Sauron's malice, and thus was an active force of evil on whomever possessed it. But the CK was not corrupt in this sense at all.

 

I'm not saying that we as careful readers cannot spin a plausible psychological account for why "he had to destroy them." But it was pretty jarring when he did it, and not in a good way. More work should have been done to make clear exactly why Rand felt he needed to do this. As it was, it seemed stupid.

 

 

I still have to disagree. For me, his reasons were obvious and made perfect sense. I didn't feel jarred and have to sit down coming up with justifications.

[Sharaman]

He may just have been a little nervous at the thought that he could end up losing the CK to a male Forsaken?

[ranjitb]

They had to be destroyed since they allowed a man to do things while "being in charge".

Now Ra'T must rely on Callandor, and thus he must be in a circle with a woman being in charge, as Robert Jordan has deemed the world must function.

[Kal-El814]

He may just have been a little nervous at the thought that he could end up losing the CK to a male Forsaken?

 

I don't think it's that. That didn't cross his mind on Dragonmount and it wasn't referenced as a reason afterward.

 

Again, he was going to use the CK to destroy the world... but instead he destroyed the CK. It's symbolic of Rand's character shift and acceptance that strength in the power is not going to be what wins the Last Battle. I don't think it's a coincidence that he obliterates an army in ToM WITHOUT the CK, that he's willing to walk into Tar Valon, shielded, without the CK, etc. He doesn't need it.