Contest of wills

[sleepinghour]

Alivia. She was collared at 13 and remained a damane for 500 (!) years. After that many years, very few people wouldn't have been brainwashed beyond repair.

[randsc]

Alivia. She was collared at 13 and remained a damane for 500 (!) years. After that many years, very few people wouldn't have been brainwashed beyond repair.

 

That's another excellent choice.

 

I mimght add Min, who not only stayed with Rand after he nearly killed her, but whose actual subjective feelings of love and trust never actually changed.

[Hopefire]

Wow, how could I forget about Verin and Alivia.

 

70 years of acting as a double agent. In the real world, spies tend to crack and need to be pulled out in a matter of years. It's rare that double agents last decades. Much less seventy years. And Verin's situation was far more worse than most spies - she was part of an organization that's acted as the agents of the primary source of evil in the universe. Not only would she need to watch her own back, knowing that any of her fellow Black Sisters (making up almost 20% of the Tower's population) might be trying to kill her at any time, likely without anyone at all that she could safely fully confide in. She would have had to participate in Black Ajah activities; I think that Sheriam's reaction to finding that Verin was the one who betrayed the Black Ajah hints at just how dark Verin's path might have been (I don't have my book handy, but it was kind of a "Her? I never would have imagined her to be acting against the Black Ajah?" followed by a shudder kind of reaction).

 

And yes, Alivia being able to have any kind of mental recovery after 500 years of being Damane says a lot about her mental strength.

 

 

 

Egwene has had two instances to show her willpower, her first being that she was able to retain her sense of self after being made Damane, the second being her defeat of Mesaana. Of note regarding the first, unlike other Damane we've seen so far, Egwene had a friend nearby who was uncollored and allowed to visit and provide moral support (another one of Min's non-actions in the series :p). Of note regarding the second, she had been raped by Shaidar Haran a few months before her encounter with Egwene. I'm not really that much into head-shrinking, but after being a) raped, b) raped by a Myrddraal, c) raped by what is potentially the avatar of the Dark One himself, and after having lived for months surrounded by enemies, before having most of her allies stripped away from her... I'd say it's likely she wasn't quite on her A-Game, to say the least, and was fighting in an arena that brought that meant her mental weakness became an issue.

[mbuehner]

I hope Bela dies in the next book so we can literally say that joke is beating a dead horse. It was honda in 1995, now its just ridiculous.

[General Cauthon]

Alivia. She was collared at 13 and remained a damane for 500 (!) years. After that many years, very few people wouldn't have been brainwashed beyond repair.

 

Actually, it was Elayne who "brainwashed" Alivia to think that she shouldn't be collared. Her entire life(and probably a few centuries before her birth), EVERYONE in Seanchan believed that women who could channel should be damane. The Sul'dam didn't need to force her to accept the a'dam, she probably thought that was the right thing to do. That Elayne managed to change her mind so quickly, is to me a sign of how weak her will was.

 

1.) Tuon - Who else could have stood up to the Dragon, while he focused his will on her? For me, that moment in tGS was the most impressive display of inner will in the series.

 

2.) Verin - Killing ones self for the greater good takes a ton of will power.

 

Tuon only beats Verin due to the fact that her will power was stronger than the Ta'Veren power of the Dragon himself

 

 

 

I'm not sure that she resisted his ta'veren power. Being ta'veren doesn't mean you can impose your will on others. It means you are used to impose the needs of the Pattern on others. It could well be that the Pattern didn't require her allegiance to Rand while he was still in his Dark Rand phase. The Seanchan do, after all, play a significant role in the end of Dark Rand and birth of Zen Rand. A greater role than Cadsuane, who tends to get the credit.

 

Except that we know that Rands ta'veren power tried to make her say yes. We see the interaction from Tuons POV:

 

Tuon found herself longing, suddenly to obey him. To please him. A treaty. A treaty would be excellent, it would giveher a chance to stabilize her hold on the lands here. She could plan how to restore order back in Seanchan. She could recruit and train. So many possibilities opened to her, as if her mind were suddenly determined to see every advantage of the alliance and none of the flaws.

 

Tuon remains the only one who have been able to withstand Rands ta'veren power in the later books when it has increased in strenght. (Verin, strongwilled as she was, swore fealty to Rand back at Dumai Wells, even though she had no intention to do so.)

 

However, I doubt there's any one person significantly more strongwilled then the rest. But I miss Amys on this list, she has grown to be as strongwilled as Sorilea IMO.

[mbuehner]

Alivia. She was collared at 13 and remained a damane for 500 (!) years. After that many years, very few people wouldn't have been brainwashed beyond repair.

 

Actually, it was Elayne who "brainwashed" Alivia to think that she shouldn't be collared. Her entire life(and probably a few centuries before her birth), EVERYONE in Seanchan believed that women who could channel should be damane. The Sul'dam didn't need to force her to accept the a'dam, she probably thought that was the right thing to do. That Elayne managed to change her mind so quickly, is to me a sign of how weak her will was.

 

1.) Tuon - Who else could have stood up to the Dragon, while he focused his will on her? For me, that moment in tGS was the most impressive display of inner will in the series.

 

2.) Verin - Killing ones self for the greater good takes a ton of will power.

 

Tuon only beats Verin due to the fact that her will power was stronger than the Ta'Veren power of the Dragon himself

 

 

 

I'm not sure that she resisted his ta'veren power. Being ta'veren doesn't mean you can impose your will on others. It means you are used to impose the needs of the Pattern on others. It could well be that the Pattern didn't require her allegiance to Rand while he was still in his Dark Rand phase. The Seanchan do, after all, play a significant role in the end of Dark Rand and birth of Zen Rand. A greater role than Cadsuane, who tends to get the credit.

 

Except that we know that Rands ta'veren power tried to make her say yes. We see the interaction from Tuons POV:

 

Tuon found herself longing, suddenly to obey him. To please him. A treaty. A treaty would be excellent, it would giveher a chance to stabilize her hold on the lands here. She could plan how to restore order back in Seanchan. She could recruit and train. So many possibilities opened to her, as if her mind were suddenly determined to see every advantage of the alliance and none of the flaws.

 

Tuon remains the only one who have been able to withstand Rands ta'veren power in the later books when it has increased in strenght. (Verin, strongwilled as she was, swore fealty to Rand back at Dumai Wells, even though she had no intention to do so.)

 

However, I doubt there's any one person significantly more strongwilled then the rest. But I miss Amys on this list, she has grown to be as strongwilled as Sorilea IMO.

 

Well, the pattern required Tuon to defy Rand in order to fulfill a whole bunch of prophecies that started when he flaked out in his attempt to flatten Ebou Dar. I'd say this was more a failure of Rand to bend the pattern to his will than anything else.

[WoTgirl111]

1. Egwene

2. Nynaeve

3. Moiraine

[coolpool]

Bela all the way!!! (if i had to choose seriously though it would be between egwene and caudswan as the others would stand down if what the other person said made sence (though only grudgingly for most) but i could see these to standing up fir something even if half way through the agument they realised they were wrong)

 

Wow, how could I forget about Verin and Alivia.

 

 

Egwene has had two instances to show her willpower, her first being that she was able to retain her sense of self after being made Damane, the second being her defeat of Mesaana. Of note regarding the first, unlike other Damane we've seen so far, Egwene had a friend nearby who was uncollored and allowed to visit and provide moral support (another one of Min's non-actions in the series :p). Of note regarding the second, she had been raped by Shaidar Haran a few months before her encounter with Egwene. I'm not really that much into head-shrinking, but after being a) raped, b) raped by a Myrddraal, c) raped by what is potentially the avatar of the Dark One himself, and after having lived for months surrounded by enemies, before having most of her allies stripped away from her... I'd say it's likely she wasn't quite on her A-Game, to say the least, and was fighting in an arena that brought that meant her mental weakness became an issue.

 

 

i'm just wordering, where does it say that maasana gets raped?? like a few people have said it on the forums but i can't actually recall where in the series that she specifically gets raped by SH. Like i know she has the bad run in with SH cos she didn't show up when rand cleased saidin, but i just thought she got torchered or something..

[Aliriel]

Ok, this may sound a little out there but I'd have to say Lini would have to have a pretty strong will as well.

Morgase(sp), even though she doesn't always do exactly what Lini says does change what she's about to do to include atleast some of Lini's suggestions.

Also she stands up to Morgase! Who has been discribed as one of the toughest nuts to crack (without the use of the OP) by many different people. For a real life example, and please be nice as I'm in no way an expert on the Brittish Royal Family, it'd be like Queen Victoria's nurse-maid walking up to her and saying "NO! You can't do that!"

 

I may be mistaking respect/admiration from Morgase as the basis of my thoughts, and if I am, then sorry, but Lini, in personal interpritation reminds me of my Grand-mother who was a hard-nosed old bat that NOONE messed with.

 

Out of the ladies listed, I'd have to go with Sorilia, Moiraraine and Caddy.

 

A.

[Morsker]

I voted for Bela, and with reason. The true measure of feminine will is staring, and Egwene makes a Forsaken's brain explode just by staring at her. So clearly, what we need is a showdown in T'A'R with all the women trying to make each other's brains explode like Egwene did. Bela is the only woman on this list who can't enter T'A'R, due to being a domesticated animal, so she'll be the last one standing.

[Arc]

Bela all the way!!! (if i had to choose seriously though it would be between egwene and caudswan as the others would stand down if what the other person said made sence (though only grudgingly for most) but i could see these to standing up fir something even if half way through the agument they realised they were wrong)

 

Wow, how could I forget about Verin and Alivia.

 

 

Egwene has had two instances to show her willpower, her first being that she was able to retain her sense of self after being made Damane, the second being her defeat of Mesaana. Of note regarding the first, unlike other Damane we've seen so far, Egwene had a friend nearby who was uncollored and allowed to visit and provide moral support (another one of Min's non-actions in the series :p). Of note regarding the second, she had been raped by Shaidar Haran a few months before her encounter with Egwene. I'm not really that much into head-shrinking, but after being a) raped, b) raped by a Myrddraal, c) raped by what is potentially the avatar of the Dark One himself, and after having lived for months surrounded by enemies, before having most of her allies stripped away from her... I'd say it's likely she wasn't quite on her A-Game, to say the least, and was fighting in an arena that brought that meant her mental weakness became an issue.

 

 

i'm just wordering, where does it say that maasana gets raped?? like a few people have said it on the forums but i can't actually recall where in the series that she specifically gets raped by SH. Like i know she has the bad run in with SH cos she didn't show up when rand cleased saidin, but i just thought she got torchered or something..

 

the hint of rape is that Shaidar Haran lets his blacksteel armor fall of his body before approaching her in the scene you're talking about. Also the rape got more plausible after what SH did to Greandal. BTW just being torchered for an hour or two wouldn't be such a shocking or severe punishment for a forsaken.

[randsc]

I voted for Bela, and with reason. The true measure of feminine will is staring, and Egwene makes a Forsaken's brain explode just by staring at her. So clearly, what we need is a showdown in T'A'R with all the women trying to make each other's brains explode like Egwene did. Bela is the only woman on this list who can't enter T'A'R, due to being a domesticated animal, so she'll be the last one standing.

 

No, no, the true measure of feminine will is sniffing like a coke fiend after a three day binge.

[Mandro]

I always saw Sorilea as 'stronger' than Cadsuane. Doesn't it say somewhere in Cadsuane's POV that she is impressed by Sorilea. And what I find cool is that Sorilea herself doesn't even acknowledge or regard the fact that she's impressive.

 

I voted for her, but Tuon (ugh) and Egwene (ultra-ugh) are bloody high up there. Maybe even stronger, but I dislike them intensely so there.

 

I said Nynaeve. The thing that is different about nynaeve and all of the other women is that the other women think that they have a right to run rough shod over everyone. But in nynaeve's progression she has realized that all she can do is what must be done, while accepting the environment around her. Meanwhile egwene caved into peer pressure to torture her friend and borderline mother figure when Nynaeve was tested. Fortuona is following a guideline of history, but nynaeve is perfectly aware of what the world around her offers, and she still does as she must.

 

She knows that Her husband, someone she fought quite hard to possess is marching to what is likely his death, and is helping a man who blithely discarded her husbands life as "useful" prior to his achievement of sanity in VoG. She is assisting a woman who is supposed to help one of her friends died. Nynaeve is perfectly aware of what is going on around her, she has no station, she has no special authority, but she uses everything at her grasp to do the best that she can.

 

I hated nynaeve for the first 8 books, but now, I can't help but like her, she is the most adult woman character in the series as yet.

[Mandro]

I voted for Bela, and with reason. The true measure of feminine will is staring, and Egwene makes a Forsaken's brain explode just by staring at her. So clearly, what we need is a showdown in T'A'R with all the women trying to make each other's brains explode like Egwene did. Bela is the only woman on this list who can't enter T'A'R, due to being a domesticated animal, so she'll be the last one standing.

 

No, no, the true measure of feminine will is sniffing like a coke fiend after a three day binge.

 

HAH!

 

I actually laughed out loud so hard, I had a small coughing fit (I'm a smoker) That was just funny.

[OptimusPrime]

Moiraine.

[Ashandarei]

Amys is finally one of the options! Excellent.

 

No, no, the true measure of feminine will is sniffing like a coke fiend after a three day binge.

Agreed!

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally, for future reference: Bookworm101 and Arc, it's spelled "tortured" not "torchered."

[Puck]

Moiraine, she spent her entire life after reaching the shawl looking for the DR, sacrificed her pride and most likely her life for what she believed in.

 

Verin, had the courage to sacrifice everything for the right cause, and betraying the DO is not something you do easily and without punishment.

 

Tuon,Egwene,Cadsuane are used to everyone listening to them anyways, but I suppose they have strong will but not as much as they think. Egwene and Tuon both have resisted Rand's power so thats still something.

[Hopefire]

Moiraine, she spent her entire life after reaching the shawl looking for the DR, sacrificed her pride and most likely her life for what she believed in.

 

Verin, had the courage to sacrifice everything for the right cause, and betraying the DO is not something you do easily and without punishment.

 

Tuon,Egwene,Cadsuane are used to everyone listening to them anyways, but I suppose they have strong will but not as much as they think. Egwene and Tuon both have resisted Rand's power so thats still something.

When did Egwene resist Rand's ta'veren twisting? If you say in their meeting in TOM, I suggest rereading the passage.

 

"The sisters and Warders reluctantly parted for him. Egwene a raised a hand to her head, feeling dizzy."

-Towers of Midnight, pg 85

 

She was hit with the ta'veren twist, and she went with it. The alternatives - to hold Rand, to refuse to gather armies for him, even to keep Rand from leaving so that the Hall could further question him, etc - were options that were not followed.

[Morsker]

Sniffing is how many of the women express irritation, but this thread is about will and that's definitely the stare. :P And Egwene really does fry Mesanna's brain by staring; I reread the scene. I think it has to be Egwene just for that scene. Although Tuon resisted Rand's ta'everen effect which is neigh-impossible. I mean there are lots of strong women, but those are two cases of will that's almost supernaturally strong.

 

But I can't help voting for Bela!

[USURP888]

 

Well, the pattern required Tuon to defy Rand in order to fulfill a whole bunch of prophecies that started when he flaked out in his attempt to flatten Ebou Dar. I'd say this was more a failure of Rand to bend the pattern to his will than anything else.

 

I was under the impression that prophesies are not what will happen but what needs to happen in order for the good guys to win.

 

If we're going to argue that Tuon resisting rand is nothing more than what the pattern dictates then I guess we could argue that everyone in the whole WOT has no willpower at all but are just being used by the pattern as it requires.

 

The fact remains that Tuon is the only person that has resisted Rand, if we're going to give credit to Cadsuane's will ( well the pattern dictates that she be a bully) or Sorilea ( well the pattern dictates that she be like that ) or Siuan/Moiraine ( well the pattern dictates that they obsess with the search for the DR ) then we should also give some credit to Tuon imo.

[Nygma]

I voted Tuon, but a lot of these women are right up there with her.

 

Some thoughts:

 

Siuan - Leane was pretty much giving up after being stilled and imprisoned. Siuan just got more focused. For comparison, Setalle gave up and nearly died before her husband found her and gave her a reason to live. Siuan not only kept herself going by keeping at her decades-long task, she gave purpose to Logain and Leane too. Gareth Bryne has bad memories of he and Morgase trying to cross Siuan's will.

 

Cadsuane - depicted as one of the strongest-willed women in the book with Aes Sedai (including Nynaeve) running to do her bidding. But aided by the awe her exploits engender.

 

Sorilea - can barely channel, but commands all the other Wise Ones through sheer force of will. Sure, the Wise Ones will all say they don't have an Amyrlin Seat and they rule by consensus, but every one of them knows in her heart that when Sorilea says toad, they'll hop.

 

Therava - pretty sure she'll hop if Sorilea says toad.

 

Egwene - breaks Mesaana's mind by imagining the strength and indomitability of THE AMYRLIN SEAT pitted against the Forsaken. Also resisted Rand's ta'veren pull in LoC when he asks where Elayne is. Not quite as impressive as Tuon's feat since Rand couldn't consciously control it at the time, she knew what was happening, and she drew on saidar for strength. But still. Now if only Tuon could learn how to get around in Tel'aran'riod like Egwene so we could get THE AMYRLIN SEAT vs THE CRYSTAL THRONE showdown.

 

Verin - loses massive points for caving into threat of death and swearing herself to the Dark One. Sorry, but in my book doing terrible things to escape death isn't strong-willed. Kudos for trying to make reparations though.

 

Moiraine - butts heads with Rand and finally has to change her tactics because he's not budging. Never swerved from her life's work a day in her life, and went into a nearly hopeless situation in pursuit of it.

[Conner Jade]

I pick:

1. Siuan

2. Moraine/Leanne

3. Setalle Anan

With Nynaeve close behind.

I think that to judge somebody's strenght of will you have to see how would they cope when their main source of "external" power was taken away from them and they would have to lean on their inner strength only. Therefore I see Siuan's will as the strongest because she lost her power and her office and had to deal with guilt and responsibility for what happeneded to White Tower and her friends (Leanne, who is also a very strong person IMHO) and warders.

Egwene's power was never taken away from her - by her power I mean strength in the One Power, Dreaming Talent and, last but not least, her self-righteousness

Concerning Therava- dominating a totally helpless person (Galina) is by no means a proof of strong will.

 

 

I am pretty sure that if all these women were thrown into a ring in Far Madding (and no one has their little ter'angreal that holds the power) then Sorilea would come out the leader, with Tuon second.

Sorilea is mentally the strongest of all the Aiel Wise Ones (a fact that is repeated a number of times). Egwene consistently has shown herself to be something of a junior partner of the wise ones, and she is mentally tougher than most, if not all of the Aes Sedai.

Tuon has her defeat of the Ta'Varen power as a proof of strength.

Third is too tough to call, mostly because almost everyone's chief point of strength is managing to completely outwill other Aes Sedai (Alise, Egwene, Cadsuane). It has almost become a qualifying standard. Moiraine is obsessive, but I am not convinced that she can stare other extremely stubborn people down. Siuan has the same problem, she seems to have bought into the power ranking system of the Aes Sedai a tad bit too much.

I also think Cadsuane and Egwene suffer in the stuck-in-a-room scenario because both heavily rely on their outward standing for their strength (though the same could be said for Tuon?).

[Nygma]

I also think Cadsuane and Egwene suffer in the stuck-in-a-room scenario because both heavily rely on their outward standing for their strength (though the same could be said for Tuon?).

I don't think the Pattern is impressed by Tuon's titles.

[SuperFade]

If we're going to argue that Tuon resisting rand is nothing more than what the pattern dictates then I guess we could argue that everyone in the whole WOT has no willpower at all but are just being used by the pattern as it requires.

 

This is what really bothers me when people say that characters act in a certain way because 'The Pattern required it'. Everything happening due to the will of the Pattern is intensely depressing if you think about it. It means that there is no free will, everyone is a slave to the Pattern and the Wheel, and that Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount about second chances and whatnot was a load of bull because you'll be just as much a slave to destiny in your next life as you are in your current one.

[Entreri]

1. Soreila/Cadsuane

 

2. Moraine

 

3. Egwene

 

4. Nynaeve

 

5. Verin