Far Madding Irritates Me

[randsc]

Not the fact that is is a matriarchy. Just how unrealistic it is.

 

The world of the WoT is female-dominated in spite of being pre-industrial. That is unrealistic itself, since there are very good reasons why men have a dominant social position, in a world where economic productivity depends literally on the strength of ones arms. But that is more than adequately compensated for by the female monopoly on magic. So it makes sense that WoT is female-dominated.

 

But the whole thing that is special about Far Madding is its Guardian, the ter'angreal that prevents channeling.

 

Logically, Far Madding should be the place in WoT-world LEAST likely to be a matriarchy.

 

Any other major flaws in world-building logic out there?

[Aquarius]

Not the fact that is is a matriarchy. Just how unrealistic it is.

 

The world of the WoT is female-dominated in spite of being pre-industrial. That is unrealistic itself, since there are very good reasons why men have a dominant social position, in a world where economic productivity depends literally on the strength of ones arms. But that is more than adequately compensated for by the female monopoly on magic. So it makes sense that WoT is female-dominated.

 

But the whole thing that is special about Far Madding is its Guardian, the ter'angreal that prevents channeling.

 

Logically, Far Madding should be the place in WoT-world LEAST likely to be a matriarchy.

 

Any other major flaws in world-building logic out there?

It doesn't seem so female-dominated to me. Borderlands, and generally All randlands kingdoms don't have that much of a bias. True Andor only has queens but that is tradition, not sexism.Illian, Tear, the Borderlands, Amador, Tarabon ... seem pretty much balanced to me. Ethenielle is queen not because she's a woman but because she inherited the crown.

 

Back on topic: Far Madding has that strange governing body. It seems odd to me, but not because of the Guardian. It looks like an imitation of WT politics ; something like "we who do not Channel are every bit as wise as AS in deciding our future, so we also have a women governing body"...

[ranjitb]

In this case the only thing that's flawed is your reasoning.

Randland isn't the depiction of a pre-industrial society where the women have yet to work their way into power, its the devolution of an existent egalitarian society from which the men in position of power and influence were suddenly removed.

 

Think of it this way - no one had to think "Oh you know, Women can rule just as well" and put them on the council of Far Madding, they were ALREADY THERE, just the balancing number of men - and not just from politics, but from what we have seen from AoL, presumably from fields such as medicine, education, etc etc - were removed leaving the leftovers in charge. The only fraction of the general populace unlikely to be affected by a such a purge would be the one which as you said relied solely on the strength of its arms - thus leaving men to be the foot soljurs and beasts of burden as they are thought of in Randland.

 

Does that make it better ? Egwene is still a bitch though.

[randsc]

In this case the only thing that's flawed is your reasoning.

Randland isn't the depiction of a pre-industrial society where the women have yet to work their way into power, its the devolution of an existent egalitarian society from which the men in position of power and influence were suddenly removed.

 

Think of it this way - no one had to think "Oh you know, Women can rule just as well" and put them on the council of Far Madding, they were ALREADY THERE, just the balancing number of men - and not just from politics, but from what we have seen from AoL, presumably from fields such as medicine, education, etc etc - were removed leaving the leftovers in charge. The only fraction of the general populace unlikely to be affected by a such a purge would be the one which as you said relied solely on the strength of its arms - thus leaving men to be the foot soljurs and beasts of burden as they are thought of in Randland.

 

Does that make it better ? Egwene is still a bitch though.

 

Does it make it better? No, not really. That "sudden removal" of men was 3000 years ago. In all that time, no man in Far Madding said, "You know what, screw this. I reject your sexist paradigm."? Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences. It is a major trade crossroads. No Far Madding men ever wondered why they had to jump whenever a woman said to, while men from outside did not?

 

Not buying it. Matriachy in Far Madding is illogical.

[garion]

I guess illogical works for Far Madding because when Rand went there in ToM he made a statement that the people there had always been a bit different from the rest of the world.

[RedRaider]

In this case the only thing that's flawed is your reasoning.

Randland isn't the depiction of a pre-industrial society where the women have yet to work their way into power, its the devolution of an existent egalitarian society from which the men in position of power and influence were suddenly removed.

 

Think of it this way - no one had to think "Oh you know, Women can rule just as well" and put them on the council of Far Madding, they were ALREADY THERE, just the balancing number of men - and not just from politics, but from what we have seen from AoL, presumably from fields such as medicine, education, etc etc - were removed leaving the leftovers in charge. The only fraction of the general populace unlikely to be affected by a such a purge would be the one which as you said relied solely on the strength of its arms - thus leaving men to be the foot soljurs and beasts of burden as they are thought of in Randland.

 

Does that make it better ? Egwene is still a bitch though.

 

The only men removed 3000 years ago were the ones who could channel and went insane. All the non channelers were still in place. I'm sure that there were non channeling teachers, etc. The only place I can see a gap would be in the field of medicine, since before the taint there was no need for it. I think the world appears to be domintaed by females simply because we statrt off with the Womens Circle and then advance to Aes Sedai. After all, Egwene's father is the Mayor. Most of the kingdom leaders have been male. The only female dominance we have seen is Camelyn, Aes Sedai, and possibly the Seanchan.

 

I do agree that Egwene is a bitch though.

 

EDIT: SPELLING R HARD

[dobraine]

Far Madding is an illogical extreme.With the fact that RJ trying to

have an equal gender powerbase failed.

We see female dominance in almost every culture.

It doesn't bother me so much that Randland is heavily female dominant.

But a place where women beating their husbands doesn't make anyone

blink twice?I frankly see Far Madding as a sexist city state with

no reason given other than that's the way things are.

[anotherfingolfin]

Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences.

 

This is important- it HASN'T evolved in a bubble. If it had, then the matriarchy would have made less sense. It is a tiny speck surrounded by the expanse of Randland. And as everything surrounding it is, somewhat logically, matriarchal/misandrous, it bears reason that this somewhat insignificant town would NOT buck the trend.

While the lessened reliance on physical strength makes Randland more egalitarian gender-wise, it is the extreme stigma in the current age, that is the reason that it is a misandrous society. And those overarching perceptions, backed by the weight of history, could quite easily overrun a place like Far Madding.

That is my reasoning as to why it should be less matriarchal; but I don't quite think there is any need to have made it seemingly MORE misandrous than everywhere else. Not just on a political level, but permeating to the social level as well.

[Muad Cheade]

Far Madding is an illogical extreme.With the fact that RJ trying to

have an equal gender powerbase failed.

We see female dominance in almost every culture.

It doesn't bother me so much that Randland is heavily female dominant.

But a place where women beating their husbands doesn't make anyone

blink twice?I frankly see Far Madding as a sexist city state with

no reason given other than that's the way things are.

How is there a female dominance? In only two factions do women always rule, Andor a d the White Tower. There is also the Panarch in Tarabon but that's debatable as the King/Queen still rules.

 

There are still examples of matriarchal societies in the present, such as the Mosuo people of China and the Nair of India.

[Dream]

Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences.

 

This is important- it HASN'T evolved in a bubble. If it had, then the matriarchy would have made less sense. It is a tiny speck surrounded by the expanse of Randland. And as everything surrounding it is, somewhat logically, matriarchal/misandrous, it bears reason that this somewhat insignificant town would NOT buck the trend.

While the lessened reliance on physical strength makes Randland more egalitarian gender-wise, it is the extreme stigma in the current age, that is the reason that it is a misandrous society. And those overarching perceptions, backed by the weight of history, could quite easily overrun a place like Far Madding.

That is my reasoning as to why it should be less matriarchal; but I don't quite think there is any need to have made it seemingly MORE misandrous than everywhere else. Not just on a political level, but permeating to the social level as well.

 

RJ would not have made Far Madding so different without some reason. Whether these reasons justify the current state is your own opinion. But consider the presence of the Guardian as evidence that the people of Far Madding are prejudiced specifically against male channelers (with good reason).

 

Now, of the four historical False Dragons who could channel, Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Davian, and Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow were born in Far Madding (or rather its precursors) and went on to terrorize much of Randland. This may have a caused a general mistrust of men from where they arose. It also didn't help that the most recent of the four, Guaire Amalasan, lay seige to and took Far Madding despite the presence of the Guardian.

 

In other words, male channelers are bad. And any male can potentially be a male channeler. In Far Madding, it's personal.

[zidfrekle]

Entirely agreed, Dream. I was about to make this point myself. Also....is Far Madding really the most pressing thing in your mind at this point in the WoT? With everything else... major battles, good vs evil, life and death scenarios, etc and you are worried about Far Madding and why it is the way it is?Why is water wet? It just is. I know AMOL is a long way off yet, but aren't there better debates to be had?

[meeker]

I always assumed they ended up with their current social standings because of their history. The built the guardian specifically because men were ravaging the world and they wanted to avoid it. They live with the constant reminder that they walled themselves into their city to avoid men who can channel. That it also stop female channeling almost seems an afterthought. Now how the fear of men who can channel extended itself to all men is questionable but I do not enough to really bother me.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences.

 

This is important- it HASN'T evolved in a bubble. If it had, then the matriarchy would have made less sense. It is a tiny speck surrounded by the expanse of Randland. And as everything surrounding it is, somewhat logically, matriarchal/misandrous, it bears reason that this somewhat insignificant town would NOT buck the trend.

While the lessened reliance on physical strength makes Randland more egalitarian gender-wise, it is the extreme stigma in the current age, that is the reason that it is a misandrous society. And those overarching perceptions, backed by the weight of history, could quite easily overrun a place like Far Madding.

That is my reasoning as to why it should be less matriarchal; but I don't quite think there is any need to have made it seemingly MORE misandrous than everywhere else. Not just on a political level, but permeating to the social level as well.

 

RJ would not have made Far Madding so different without some reason. Whether these reasons justify the current state is your own opinion. But consider the presence of the Guardian as evidence that the people of Far Madding are prejudiced specifically against male channelers (with good reason).

 

Now, of the four historical False Dragons who could channel, Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Davian, and Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow were born in Far Madding (or rather its precursors) and went on to terrorize much of Randland. This may have a caused a general mistrust of men from where they arose. It also didn't help that the most recent of the four, Guaire Amalasan, lay seige to and took Far Madding despite the presence of the Guardian.

 

In other words, male channelers are bad. And any male can potentially be a male channeler. In Far Madding, it's personal.

 

 

I thought Amalasan hailed from Darmovan?

[Ashandarei]

Entirely agreed, Dream. I was about to make this point myself. Also....is Far Madding really the most pressing thing in your mind at this point in the WoT? With everything else... major battles, good vs evil, life and death scenarios, etc and you are worried about Far Madding and why it is the way it is?Why is water wet? It just is. I know AMOL is a long way off yet, but aren't there better debates to be had?

 

Anything in the WoT world is worthy of debate in this forum, just because certain things aren't central to the main storyline doesn't necessarily mean they aren't worth talking about. Whether it's the governing structure of Far Madding or Aviendha's portentous viewing that is debated, it's all fair game. (Not trying to be confrontational, just saying.)

[Suttree]

Don't forget , Far Madding isn't some isolated backwater where people don't see outside influences.

 

This is important- it HASN'T evolved in a bubble. If it had, then the matriarchy would have made less sense. It is a tiny speck surrounded by the expanse of Randland. And as everything surrounding it is, somewhat logically, matriarchal/misandrous, it bears reason that this somewhat insignificant town would NOT buck the trend.

While the lessened reliance on physical strength makes Randland more egalitarian gender-wise, it is the extreme stigma in the current age, that is the reason that it is a misandrous society. And those overarching perceptions, backed by the weight of history, could quite easily overrun a place like Far Madding.

That is my reasoning as to why it should be less matriarchal; but I don't quite think there is any need to have made it seemingly MORE misandrous than everywhere else. Not just on a political level, but permeating to the social level as well.

 

RJ would not have made Far Madding so different without some reason. Whether these reasons justify the current state is your own opinion. But consider the presence of the Guardian as evidence that the people of Far Madding are prejudiced specifically against male channelers (with good reason).

 

Now, of the four historical False Dragons who could channel, Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Davian, and Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow were born in Far Madding (or rather its precursors) and went on to terrorize much of Randland. This may have a caused a general mistrust of men from where they arose. It also didn't help that the most recent of the four, Guaire Amalasan, lay seige to and took Far Madding despite the presence of the Guardian.

 

In other words, male channelers are bad. And any male can potentially be a male channeler. In Far Madding, it's personal.

 

 

I thought Amalasan hailed from Darmovan?

 

Think Dream meant that just Darksbane and Stonebow were from FM...but Amalasan did take FM during the War of the Second Dragon.

[Evoke]

You're looking at this from an Earth perspective where various patriarchal religions have usurped the previous matriarchal societies. In a world that hasn't been subjected to things such as witch hunts it's more likely that women will have stronger roles in society.

[randsc]

You're looking at this from an Earth perspective where various patriarchal religions have usurped the previous matriarchal societies. In a world that hasn't been subjected to things such as witch hunts it's more likely that women will have stronger roles in society.

 

 

Two problems with that.

 

First, the world we are talking about IS Earth. Jordan made that very clear.

 

Second, the historical and archeological evidence of widespread matriarchies in our past is sketchy, at the very best. Some would simply say, "Nonexistent."

[MattTaz]

Must admit the men-bashing that goes on in WoT did get to me a bit.

 

Then when we came to Far Madding where the women were supposed to be more bossy than other cultures. I was like WTF!!!

 

Just another question - With all the alliances going on. Far Madding is in the cold. Do you think they will approach anyone?

[Ashandarei]

Just another question - With all the alliances going on. Far Madding is in the cold. Do you think they will approach anyone?

 

Interesting question. My guess is that they'll be their usual fool isolationist selves and eventually get snapped up by Andor or Tear in the future. And by future I mean after the end of the series.

[dobraine]

Dobraine Ablar, on 04 February 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

Far Madding is an illogical extreme.With the fact that RJ trying to

have an equal gender powerbase failed.

We see female dominance in almost every culture.

It doesn't bother me so much that Randland is heavily female dominant.

But a place where women beating their husbands doesn't make anyone

blink twice?I frankly see Far Madding as a sexist city state with

no reason given other than that's the way things are.

How is there a female dominance? In only two factions do women always rule, Andor a d the White Tower. There is also the Panarch in Tarabon but that's debatable as the King/Queen still rules.

 

There are still examples of matriarchal societies in the present, such as the Mosuo people of China and the Nair of India.

 

I wasn't necessarily talking of matriarchy.

But a general sense of dominance in the series.

Granted that is embellished by matriarchy.

It is an idea that magic users only being female for 3000 years

made society equal?

 

But to give an idea of why I would feel this I'll list a few examples.

The Ebou Dari culture with its marriage knives and females being the

heads of household so to speak.The fact that it is mentioned that

some women will use their knives for spousal training.

These do not smell of an equal society.

Also Tyelin's dominance over Mat leading to gray areas to say the least.

Andoran culture is heavily centered around their queen.

TR and the border lands have a deep reverence for females even leading the

taver'en into hairy situations do to their beliefs.

Far Madding need I say more?

The Seafolk have a female dominant society.

And the biggest supporter of this view Tar Valon and the AS.

It is ingrained in us since the first book that nations bow to the AS.

A completely female dominant society has a political power over almost

every nation.

 

This is all just a point of view.

Don't feel slighted if you disagree.

[Evoke]

You're looking at this from an Earth perspective where various patriarchal religions have usurped the previous matriarchal societies. In a world that hasn't been subjected to things such as witch hunts it's more likely that women will have stronger roles in society.

 

 

Two problems with that.

 

First, the world we are talking about IS Earth. Jordan made that very clear.

 

Second, the historical and archeological evidence of widespread matriarchies in our past is sketchy, at the very best. Some would simply say, "Nonexistent."

 

 

 

Sigh, fine - make that "the age which in we live" if you want to geek out. Doesn't make a difference. Pagan religions had plenty of matriarchs. Even some native American tribes - like the Iroquois, with whom only the women could own property (sound familiar?). Christianity destroyed all of that. Why do you think women are the source of so much evil in the bible? It was a way to destroy the matriarch. To weaken women. To say matriarchs never existed is to ignore history.

[randsc]

You're looking at this from an Earth perspective where various patriarchal religions have usurped the previous matriarchal societies. In a world that hasn't been subjected to things such as witch hunts it's more likely that women will have stronger roles in society.

 

 

Two problems with that.

 

First, the world we are talking about IS Earth. Jordan made that very clear.

 

Second, the historical and archeological evidence of widespread matriarchies in our past is sketchy, at the very best. Some would simply say, "Nonexistent."

 

 

 

Sigh, fine - make that "the age which in we live" if you want to geek out. Doesn't make a difference. Pagan religions had plenty of matriarchs. Even some native American tribes - like the Iroquois, with whom only the women could own property (sound familiar?). Christianity destroyed all of that. Why do you think women are the source of so much evil in the bible? It was a way to destroy the matriarch. To weaken women. To say matriarchs never existed is to ignore history.

 

From Stephen Goldberg, Sociologist and the foremost authority on Iroquois society:

 

 

Let me make it clear beyond the possibility of misunderstanding that-- if it were the case that the Iroquois women could seriously be argued to have superfamilial power equal to, though taking a different form from-- that of men, I too would consider the Iroquois an exception to the universality of patriarchy (and would extend the definition of "patriarchy" to reflect this non-universality). But, because, as we shall see, this is not true of the Iroquois or any other group, we can define and identify "patriarchy" in terms of those who fill the hierarchical positions of power.

 

It is true that the Iroquois women served the roles of nominators of the males (that is why I'd choose the Iroquois if I had to argue for an exception, feeble as would be the argument). But it is also clear that women's power was less than meets the eye: the "nominee" could be rejected by the (male) chiefs of the relevant phratries and by the (male) council [Goldenweiser, 1914]. In practice, there was rarely a great difference between the men and women as to which man should lead--just as, in the United States, there is rarely a great difference between the political choices of men and women. And, in any case, a system prohibiting women from filling hierarchical positions is not precisely what those who call for "sexual equality" have in mind.

 

Henry Schoolcraft [1847] nicely summerizes the political position of Iroquois women:

 

(The Iroquois) gave to women a conservative power in their political deliberations. The Iroquois matrons had their representatives in public councils; and they exercised a negative, or what we would call a veto power, in the important question of the declaration of war. They have the right also to impose in bringing about peace.

 

Women in the United States make up over half of the voters (and have far more than just a "veto power), can be (and occasionally are) Senators, and have all the formal legal rights possessed by men, but no one could reasonaby deny that the U.S is patriarchal and male-dominated. (Feminists don't deny this, but give us endless examples of its being true and then incorrectly deny or ignore the role of sexual psychophysiological differentiation.) Women in many primitive societies "owned" the land and many primitive societies were matrilocal and matrilineal. None of this began to render these societies an exception to the universals we discuss. The Iroquois are, as I have written, probably the best example of a society in which come together all of the various political powers given to women in the various non-democratic societies societies in which women are not permitted the hierarchical positions.

 

 

I repeat, the historical and archeological evidence for widespread matriarchies is sketchy, at best. There have probably been some genuine matriarchies in the history of this world (though maybe not; anthropologists speak of something called the "Universal Patriarchy"), but they have always been decidedly the exception to the rule.

 

Anyway, this has gotten pretty far off topic. What bothers me about Far Madding is not that it is a matriarchy. It is the illogic of a continuing matriarchy in a place where the female monopoly on the use of the OP is irrelevant.

[FainsLeftFoot]

This seems like one of those obvious answers to me like "why does a flower grow in a garden". Simple really, because it has been planted there nurtured and given time to form. Just because the city cannot channel doesn't mean it recieves no Aes Sedai meddling. For all we know the council could be all female channelers that never made it past accepted but have a strong sense for politics. Of course that was a wild example but with RJs theme perhaps the fact that women and men do not work well with one another could cause some political leaders to resign to a female run state to make negotiations a little easier.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Dude, randsc, you keep repeating how it's illogical...Where's the beef?

 

They've apparently been doing it this way for thousands of years, and it's what works for them...How is that illogical, to you, that Far Madding has kept doing what's worked for them across generations?

 

You could argue that morally it's messed up with some social practices, beatings, subservience, what have you - but I'm having trouble understanding what exactly it is that you find totally illogical, when again, it's been what they've done for thousands of years, and it works for them.

 

To me, that's perfectly logical.

[Erunion]

Randland covers the whole spectrum of prejudices, with political and historical reason. There is only one completely male-dominated society, and that is Amadicia. Why? Because Amadicia has been in a state of cold-war with the White Tower for a thousand years.

Not only is this a world where men who use magic go mad and die, this is a world where politics are meddled in by a group of 50-300 year old women who can use magic and live together in a tower. It's been this way for 3000 years. Of course the society is going to be female-dominated - the Tower has been pushing it for three thousand years!

Far Madding is just a logical extreme where prejudice against men has been ingrained over the course of three millenia and heightened by all the False Dragons.