Far Madding Irritates Me

[yoniy0]

one can only assume that during the breaking the guardian was somehow destroyed (The current one is NOT the original one) and the leader at the time likely took the blame

Not that I don't believe you but where was it stated that this wasn't the original Guardian. GO PACK GO!

It was never directly stated, but it can be inferred from when Rand said "The Guardians are newer..." That seems to imply that the last one was destroyed or otherwise rendered inoperable somehow. With the Chaos of the breaking it makes sense that it was destroyed.

We also know that the (current?) Guardian is in Far Madding for about 2000 years, which means, if a previous Guardian ever existed (which I know of no evidence to support), it was removed at some point:

"You must forgive them," Kumira told Harine and Shalon quietly. Even that produced a slight sound, if not quite an echo. "Peace, but this must be awkward, even for Cadsuane." She ran her fingers through her short brown hair and shook her head to settle it back in place. "The Counsels are seldom happy to see Aes Sedai, especially sisters born here. I think they would like to pretend the Power doesn't exist. Well, their history gives them reason, and for the last two thousand years they have had the means to support the pretense. In any event, Cadsuane is Cadsuane. She seldom sees a swelled head without deciding to deflate it, even when it happens to be wearing a crown. Or a Counsel's diadem. Her last visit was over twenty years ago, during the Aiel War, but I suspect some who remember it will want to hide under their beds when they learn she is back." Kumira gave a small, amused laugh. Shalon saw nothing to laugh at. Harine twisted her lips, but it made her look as though she suffered from a bad belly.

[randsc]

Well, I guess that answers the, "How could that ever happen, the Aes Sedai would never make something to limit their power" objection. They (or someone) already did, at least once.

[Byzantine279]

It seems that it was a splinter group of some sort during the AOL that decided to reject the one power and all the "wonders" it brought into the world (I suppose a comparison to the Amish, with their rejection of modern technology, is not too far from accurate). They then ensured that it would stay this way by constructing a guardian to prevent the one power from ever being used, otherwise I suspect rand would not have known that the TP ignores a guardian.

[Ashandarei]

It seems that it was a splinter group of some sort during the AOL that decided to reject the one power and all the "wonders" it brought into the world (I suppose a comparison to the Amish, with their rejection of modern technology, is not too far from accurate). They then ensured that it would stay this way by constructing a guardian to prevent the one power from ever being used, otherwise I suspect rand would not have known that the TP ignores a guardian.

 

Assuming that the Guardian was in fact there from the AoL and not just from 2000 years ago as Yoniy0 shows, that analogy is a great one! I really like that parallel.

[randsc]

Like maybe some former damane, who might wish to be able to lead normal lives, but are terrified of the power?

 

We already know that damane are especially good at manufacturing ter'angreal, at least compared to the current Aes Sedai.

 

It might not be so hard to find some channeller willing to do this, after all.

 

If nothing else, the "defective" foxheads would provide a way for Seanchan society to permit the unleashing of the damane. Sure, making them wear foxheads that prevent them from channelling (and, critically, reassure the populace by providing a visual assurance that they can't channel) might have an unfortunate "yellow star" or "pink triangle" feel to US, but it is better than a leash, during a transitional period.

[Byzantine279]

It seems that it was a splinter group of some sort during the AOL that decided to reject the one power and all the "wonders" it brought into the world (I suppose a comparison to the Amish, with their rejection of modern technology, is not too far from accurate). They then ensured that it would stay this way by constructing a guardian to prevent the one power from ever being used, otherwise I suspect rand would not have known that the TP ignores a guardian.

 

Assuming that the Guardian was in fact there from the AoL and not just from 2000 years ago as Yoniy0 shows, that analogy is a great one! I really like that parallel.

 

 

It has to be, why else would Rand refer to it as "The Guardians are newer...", it implys that they existed back in the AOL, if he had memories of guardians from then.

 

Remember that Aes Sedai knowledge is incomplete, their furthest records about far madding appear to be from 2,000 years before the start of the book, and that quote specifically states the possibility that they may be even older, which onyl makes sense when paired with what appears to be Zen Rand's newfound knowledge about them.

 

randsc, i think you may be transposing a different argument here, this one isn't about the Seanchan at all, though you should make that argument on one that is :).

[randsc]

No, it's the same argument. Read the rest of the thread and you will see it.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't apologize to the creator of the thread even if I did take it off-course.

[yoniy0]

I have to admit I don't understand your reasoning. We know Kumira believes the Guardian(s) weren't active until 2k years ago (she needn't necessarily be right, but she must have some sort of evidence to go by, or she wouldn't have been able to say so). Rand himself says that they are much newer than the city itself, meaning that for a period of time the city existed without Guardian(s). Also, he is affected by the Guardian when he states that it doesn't block TP - what's simpler than his actually still feeling the TP to explain that? Remember, the way the Guardian works, it's not like you have to attempt to channel to notice it. You notice the moment you step into its coverage area.

 

A few other points:

We know (as per RJ/Brandon's comment) that the Seanchan only know how to produce adams. No other sort of ter'angreal. Modern-day AS (well above 2k years back) don't even know how to do that. The obvious conclusion is that the Guardian(s) were manufactured during the AoL (or the Breaking, whatever). Any female AS would have a reason to create the one attuned to sai'din then, and it's not hard to understand why one might want to complete the set. The rest is just a question of how the city overlords were able to obtain it, but I really don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that they were.

[ranjitb]

So I was just wondering - the Guardian supposedly blocks channeling by limiting access to the OP, but surely it can't prevent weaves that are made outside of its influence...

What would have happened if Rand had BaleNuked Far Madding instead of Natrin's Barrow. Actually in retrospect he should have done it just for the Lolz.

Similarly, why don't the channelers just open gateways INTO far madding and hurl all manners of nasty blow-uppy weaves through them while standing on "this" side.

 

After all, the Guardian has no ability to untangle weaves (akin to the FoxHead medallion) - we know this for a FACT since AS are able to channel just fine inside the city, as long as they have access to a OP well.

 

Not quite the safe haven it's made out to be eh ?

[randsc]

That's an excellent point. Probably it get put down to, "Because Jordan didn't think of it."

[rcfleming4]

Pretty much. Rand thought of raining destruction down on Far Madding in TGS. The Guardian is just a poor man's stedding, doesn't do anything to weaves just blocks access to the source.

 

Actually, do steddings undo weaves?

[chinnma]

I gotta be honest, one of the things that has bothered me about the entire series is how strongly RJ writes his women. Lets be clear, i'm not sexist, i dont have a problem with RJ writing strong women characters; my issue is that he writes all of his women strong. Personally, I think it takes away from the strength of the individual characters (such as Moraine, Nyneave, Morgase) if strength of character among women is the norm. Just my two cents.

[ranjitb]

I gotta be honest, one of the things that has bothered me about the entire series is how strongly RJ writes his women. Lets be clear, i'm not sexist, i dont have a problem with RJ writing strong women characters; my issue is that he writes all of his women strong. Personally, I think it takes away from the strength of the individual characters (such as Moraine, Nyneave, Morgase) if strength of character among women is the norm. Just my two cents.

 

Donde ?

This is plainly not true.

 

The series is littered with examples of women who are easily led sheep - Sumeko, Lyrelle (who is a Hall sitter to boot), Coiren (or whoever was the leader of the Salidar delegation), all of the Andoran nobles whos names I don't care to remember; not to mention women who have "given in to the dark side out of greed" (not strictly dark friends) such as Sevanna and Colavaere; Leah the Maiden who was seduced by Mashadar etc etc.

 

Just because we tend to spend a lot of time with Wunderkind (honestly, as does every fantasy series) doesn't mean that every character in the whole world is similar.

[garion]

How was Leah weak to Mashadar?

[Morsker]

I gotta be honest, one of the things that has bothered me about the entire series is how strongly RJ writes his women. Lets be clear, i'm not sexist, i dont have a problem with RJ writing strong women characters; my issue is that he writes all of his women strong. Personally, I think it takes away from the strength of the individual characters (such as Moraine, Nyneave, Morgase) if strength of character among women is the norm. Just my two cents.

You may be misinterpreting the womens' sexism for strength. The women always seem strong when dealing with men, but only because of their hatred and condescension. They're so full of hate that it's impossible for them be intimidated. When dealing with other women, sometimes they're strong, and sometimes they aren't.

[Feral]

When dealing with other women, sometimes they're strong, and sometimes they aren't.

 

Which is what makes it even more annoying. First Nynaeve was the boss. Then Aes Sedai were the strongest women out there. Then Wise Ones, oh and Sorilea makes all of the other WOs and everyone else jump. Then there's Wind Finders who make Aes Sedai jump. And then there's Caddy who makes all the other Aes Sedai jump. And then suddenly Egwene makes everyone jump, even though she started off as a silly fluttery little girl. Oh and Nynaeve seems rather intimidated by Alivia. There are noble women (queens even) who have been brought to believe they're special and pretty much all powerful who let themselves be bullied by Aes Sedai. It's just unrealistic. Well, I've never witnessed anything like it in real life at any rate.

[David Selig]

Jordan certainly had a strong belief in the power of the stare of a strong woman, there's literally hundreds of them in this series who can put practically anyone in his place with one mean look. But then, when they see an even stronger women, they submit to her stare quite easily. I didn't mind it when it was only Moiraine and Nynaeve doing it at the start, but then 98% of the women we met are the same. It really got old quickly. I get that most of those women we see are in positions of power and are trained to look in command, but this is way too much.

 

On topic - Far Madding has always bother me too. Seems way too unrealistic. If the army and city guard there is made of men, and the Aes Sedai can't interfere, it doesn't make sense that the men are treated so horribly for centuries and just accept it.

[Zentari]

I have to admit I don't understand your reasoning. We know Kumira believes the Guardian(s) weren't active until 2k years ago (she needn't necessarily be right, but she must have some sort of evidence to go by, or she wouldn't have been able to say so).

The oaths do not stop someone from saying anything if they believe in it,it's not a confirmation about anything being true.It's one of the reasons the servants have fallen so far.

 

So I was just wondering - the Guardian supposedly blocks channeling by limiting access to the OP, but surely it can't prevent weaves that are made outside of its influence...

What would have happened if Rand had BaleNuked Far Madding instead of Natrin's Barrow. Actually in retrospect he should have done it just for the Lolz.

Similarly, why don't the channelers just open gateways INTO far madding and hurl all manners of nasty blow-uppy weaves through them while standing on "this" side.

 

After all, the Guardian has no ability to untangle weaves (akin to the FoxHead medallion) - we know this for a FACT since AS are able to channel just fine inside the city, as long as they have access to a OP well.

 

Not quite the safe haven it's made out to be eh ?

Actually, all it does is give a false sense of security to appease the masses.If some madman wanted to play legos with the city, he would.

[yoniy0]

The oaths do not stop someone from saying anything if they believe in it,it's not a confirmation about anything being true.It's one of the reasons the servants have fallen so far.

Well, I believe that's exactly what I said here:

(she needn't necessarily be right,

But then I added:

but she must have some sort of evidence to go by, or she wouldn't have been able to say so).

[Zentari]

The oaths do not stop someone from saying anything if they believe in it,it's not a confirmation about anything being true.It's one of the reasons the servants have fallen so far.

Well, I believe that's exactly what I said here:

(she needn't necessarily be right,

But then I added:

but she must have some sort of evidence to go by, or she wouldn't have been able to say so).

Which,once again is false.All that is required is for the AS to believe it , evidence or not.So she does not necessarily have evidence, it can be a little theory in her mind that she's set on.

[chinnma]

 

Donde ?

This is plainly not true.

 

The series is littered with examples of women who are easily led sheep - Sumeko, Lyrelle (who is a Hall sitter to boot), Coiren (or whoever was the leader of the Salidar delegation), all of the Andoran nobles whos names I don't care to remember; not to mention women who have "given in to the dark side out of greed" (not strictly dark friends) such as Sevanna and Colavaere; Leah the Maiden who was seduced by Mashadar etc etc.

 

Just because we tend to spend a lot of time with Wunderkind (honestly, as does every fantasy series) doesn't mean that every character in the whole world is similar.

 

 

 

 

You may be misinterpreting the womens' sexism for strength. The women always seem strong when dealing with men, but only because of their hatred and condescension. They're so full of hate that it's impossible for them be intimidated. When dealing with other women, sometimes they're strong, and sometimes they aren't.

 

 

It seems I didn't express myself clearly, apologies. Lets see if I can clear things up a bit.

 

To ranjitb: When I said "strength of character" I didn't intend that to mean "purity of character", therefore I was not implying that the women in WOT were less likely to be "easily led sheep" than men (particularly when the leader is another woman, or a superior in the darkfriend network). I was also refering to the main female characters or seccondary characters in particular, not to characters like the Andoran nobles.

 

To Morsker: I agree that the "strength" (for lack of a better term) is typicaly directed toward men moreso than women. I'm not sure that I agree that it is the result of sexism or hate; instead I feel their attitudes toward men are born out of fear (in the case of men who can channel), or a general idea of superiority (in the case of the WT, Women's Circle, Far Madding, etc.).

 

Hope that clears things up. Sorry for the confusion.

[yoniy0]

Which,once again is false.All that is required is for the AS to believe it , evidence or not.So she does not necessarily have evidence, it can be a little theory in her mind that she's set on.

A very peculiar thing to believe in. I mean, why not 2.5k or 1.5k? Be serious, that's the sort of thing that one only believes if one's seen some sort of evidence (a teacher's word would suffice, but then we have to ask ourselves why did the teacher believe it, since she's almost certainly AS as well).

By the way, evidence isn't the same as proof. Perhaps that's why my previous remark confused you. I agree that Kumira's word isn't canon, but it's does constitutes supporting evidence. That's the reason why I mentioned other points to support my position.

[Zentari]

Which,once again is false.All that is required is for the AS to believe it , evidence or not.So she does not necessarily have evidence, it can be a little theory in her mind that she's set on.

A very peculiar thing to believe in. I mean, why not 2.5k or 1.5k? Be serious, that's the sort of thing that one only believes if one's seen some sort of evidence (a teacher's word would suffice, but then we have to ask ourselves why did the teacher believe it, since she's almost certainly AS as well).

By the way, evidence isn't the same as proof. Perhaps that's why my previous remark confused you. I agree that Kumira's word isn't cannon, but it's does constitutes supporting evidence. That's the reason why I mentioned other points to support my position.

I'm more inclined to believe it was another of those Aes Sedai asspulls that happen and it just stuck.Still, to each his own as they say...

[Suttree]

Which,once again is false.All that is required is for the AS to believe it , evidence or not.So she does not necessarily have evidence, it can be a little theory in her mind that she's set on.

A very peculiar thing to believe in. I mean, why not 2.5k or 1.5k? Be serious, that's the sort of thing that one only believes if one's seen some sort of evidence (a teacher's word would suffice, but then we have to ask ourselves why did the teacher believe it, since she's almost certainly AS as well).

By the way, evidence isn't the same as proof. Perhaps that's why my previous remark confused you. I agree that Kumira's word isn't cannon, but it's does constitutes supporting evidence. That's the reason why I mentioned other points to support my position.

I'm more inclined to believe it was another of those Aes Sedai asspulls that happen and it just stuck.Still, to each his own as they say...

 

Kumira was an Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah. It was mentioned in the books that she has a photographic memory. While her word certainly isn't cannon the most obvious conclusion is she has studied the history of Far Madding and the Gaurdians at some point.