Will Elayne become a full Aes Sedai?

[randsc]

This falls under the heading of, "Even in WoT-world, things usually happen for a reason."

 

Elayne's whole avoidance of the testing and subsequent raising strikes me as contrived (not contrived on her part, contrived on Jordan/Sanderson's part). Sure, the excuse of not endangering the babies is logical, but why bother writing it? I think the fact that she hasn't become a full Aes Sedai (by the original, not-just-cause-teh-amyrlin-says-so, standard) is an intentional plot device.

 

I could see her not becoming part of the Tower. Perhaps leading the Kin, post-TG.

[hankscorpio]

I know Robert Jordan said he planned on not having every plot thread wrapped up after A Memory of Light. My guess is that this will probably be one of those unresolved plots.

[blazetheearth]

I don't think it will happen onscreen. It'll be post TG if at all.

 

Personally I think it would be better if she died soon after childbirth, then Dylin can act as regent until Elayne's daughter can take over.I doubt that it will happen like that, but I'd still like to see it.

[herid]

I think it will happen eventually but definitely not onscreen. I believe Elayne is only about 4 months pregnant at the moment.

[Mastro80]

New member here, longtime WoT reader. I think RJ left the girls free of the Three Oaths to give himself a little more leeway in writing their scenes. I believe Elayne remains untested and uses some combination of Lying/Weaponbuilding/Using the Power as a weapon to her advantage in AMOL.

[sleepinghour]

I could see her not becoming part of the Tower. Perhaps leading the Kin, post-TG.

I think being an Aes Sedai is not something Elayne would give up lightly, nor would the Tower want to lose the Queen of both Andor and Cairhien. That said, Elayne was probably a little too overconfident in thinking that she could get Egwene--let alone the Hall--to approve of her plans for the Kin. Sooner or later the Kin's going to realize they don't actually need the Tower's teachings or approval, and most of the ones that want to become Aes Sedai (like Sumeko) will probably balk once they find out what the Oath Rod does.

[Feral]

I don't think it will happen onscreen. It'll be post TG if at all.

 

Personally I think it would be better if she died soon after childbirth, then Dylin can act as regent until Elayne's daughter can take over.I doubt that it will happen like that, but I'd still like to see it.

 

I agree with that, although I'd have Morgase take the throne until Elayne's eldest daughter is old enough. IF Andor survives. But anyway, yes, I too thought it was quite odd that they bothered having such a relatively lengthy discussion about whether or not Elayne should do the test.

[yoniy0]

I think we might see her taking the Oaths, or at least be told that she did. But the Testing IS too dangerous right now, and she's bound to remain pregnant until the very end of the series (even if her babes are born on screen, it can't be before AMoL's climax, which can admittedly take the better part of that book, but still). So... that's it.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Seeing as Elayne believes herself to be a true political schemer she probably will not pull through on becoming a full Aes Sedai. As a Queen and ruler it places a conflict of interest on her since she would technically be subservient to the whims of the Amyrlin, which if she is thinking for the good of her nation she will avoid.

 

It's why a priest or monk has to rescind his vows before he can be elected to any political office or run for any government position.

[randsc]

It's why a priest or monk has to rescind his vows before he can be elected to any political office or run for any government position.

 

Where is that? Not everywhere.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

It's why a priest or monk has to rescind his vows before he can be elected to any political office or run for any government position.

 

Where is that? Not everywhere.

 

 

Europe, South America and Africa to name a few off the top of my head.

[White_star]

I think she will take the test after the children are born but I'm thinking maybe Rand will tell her what the Oath/Binding Rod was REALLY used for and it's life-shortening effects (Am I correct that Rand knows this?) in the AoL and she'll refuse to swear on it.

[capuga]

I think she will take the test after the children are born but I'm thinking maybe Rand will tell her what the Oath/Binding Rod was REALLY used for and it's life-shortening effects (Am I correct that Rand knows this?) in the AoL and she'll refuse to swear on it.

 

I would imagine that he does but the Wondergirls already know this. They figured out it was the Oath Rod that caused the Aes Sedai to not live as long as the Kin and why the Kin did not have the ageless look. Egwene just decided that loosing 300 years of your life span was worth carrying on the moronic tradition of the Oaths.

[White_star]

I think she will take the test after the children are born but I'm thinking maybe Rand will tell her what the Oath/Binding Rod was REALLY used for and it's life-shortening effects (Am I correct that Rand knows this?) in the AoL and she'll refuse to swear on it.

 

I would imagine that he does but the Wondergirls already know this. They figured out it was the Oath Rod that caused the Aes Sedai to not live as long as the Kin and why the Kin did not have the ageless look. Egwene just decided that loosing 300 years of your life span was worth carrying on the moronic tradition of the Oaths.

True, they know what it does (shortens ones life), but I didn't think they knew what it was really called or used for.

[Hopefire]

My own theory is that Elayne will actually go so far as to step down as Aes Sedai when push comes to shove.

 

Right now, we have

A) An Amyrlin who believes that the greatness of a leader is expressed by how much control they have. Egwene's primary criteria to separate the great leaders from the weak is how much control over the Hall and the Tower each woman was able to wield.

B) An Amyrlin who has recently been able to come to an agreement with the Hall in which the Hall delegates relationships between the Tower and the monarchs of the world to the Amyrlin.

C) A queen who is quite firm in her belief that she is the rightful queen and who does not wish to see control of her domain fade in even a nominal way.

D) Potentially divisive issues ahead, such as whether or not Elayne will stand with Rand of Egwene in the upcoming summit.

 

All things considered, Egwene Sedai is well within her legal right to give a command to Elayne Sedai; if Elayne wants to call herself Aes Sedai, the Amyrlin's word is law. However, if Elayne agrees to this, it means that Andor's policy are essentially subject to Tar Valon's decree so long as Elayne lives and calls herself Aes Sedai. For example, if Min convinces Elayne that the Seals need to be broken, and Elayne decides to side with Rand rather than Egwene, Egwene might try to give Elayne a direct command to side with her rather than with Rand.

 

It's a massive conflict of interest waiting to happen. The easiest, most simple way for Elayne to deal with this if and when this is brought to the forefront is for Elayne to step down as Aes Sedai, and deny the Tower any authority over her. The alternative could end up quite funny; Queen Elayne might order Captain-General Brigitte to ensure the armies of Andor follow Rand, while Elayne Sedai stands with Egwene, putting Elayne in a position where she's ordered her own nation to oppose her.

[Beidomon]

Can we add a choice for "I don't care"?

[idiostock]

Can we add a choice for "I don't care"?

 

If I could rep...

[randsc]

It's why a priest or monk has to rescind his vows before he can be elected to any political office or run for any government position.

 

Where is that? Not everywhere.

 

 

Europe, South America and Africa to name a few off the top of my head.

 

Not everywhere, even on those continents. I know that for a fact.

 

We've had a priest elected to Congress in the US, and of course Haiti had a priest as President.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

It's why a priest or monk has to rescind his vows before he can be elected to any political office or run for any government position.

 

Where is that? Not everywhere.

 

 

Europe, South America and Africa to name a few off the top of my head.

 

Not everywhere, even on those continents. I know that for a fact.

 

We've had a priest elected to Congress in the US, and of course Haiti had a priest as President.

 

Can you provide me with names or sources please?

[yoniy0]

A) An Amyrlin who believes that the greatness of a leader is expressed by how much control they have. Egwene's primary criteria to separate the great leaders from the weak is how much control over the Hall and the Tower each woman was able to wield.

I disagree with your interpretation. Read her chapters since she was imprisoned in the Tower, and you might find a different Egwene. One that understands true leadership. Before that, yes. She was still a child, though quite skillful at manipulation. But most children eventually grow up, as she did.

 

All things considered, Egwene Sedai is well within her legal right to give a command to Elayne Sedai

[...]

It's a massive conflict of interest waiting to happen.

Again, I disagree. There are pitfalls, I won't go as far as denying that, but they are certainly avoidable. Both women are quite intelligent, and able to differentiate between AS business and Andor's. Where Elayne acts as AS, Egwene's within her rights to command her. But where she acts as Queen, her independence can still be maintained. Since Egwene isn't inviting the entire Tower to the meeting at the Field of Merrilor, one has to deduce that Elayne presence there is as Queen of Andor, hence she's free to side with Rand if she so wishes (that's a different story altogether, naturally. So far she seems as put off by the idea of breaking the Seals as Egwene).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

A) An Amyrlin who believes that the greatness of a leader is expressed by how much control they have. Egwene's primary criteria to separate the great leaders from the weak is how much control over the Hall and the Tower each woman was able to wield.

I disagree with your interpretation. Read her chapters since she was imprisoned in the Tower, and you might find a different Egwene. One that understands true leadership. Before that, yes. She was still a child, though quite skillful at manipulation. But most children eventually grow up, as she did.

 

All things considered, Egwene Sedai is well within her legal right to give a command to Elayne Sedai

[...]

It's a massive conflict of interest waiting to happen.

Again, I disagree. There are pitfalls, I won't go as far as denying that, but they are certainly avoidable. Both women are quite intelligent, and able to differentiate between AS business and Andor's. Where Elayne acts as AS, Egwene's within her rights to command her. But where she acts as Queen, her independence can still be maintained. Since Egwene isn't inviting the entire Tower to the meeting at the Field of Merrilor, one has to deduce that Elayne presence there is as Queen of Andor, hence she's free to side with Rand if she so wishes (that's a different story altogether, naturally. So far she seems as put off by the idea of breaking the Seals as Egwene).

 

 

What you're saying sounds reasonable. However this is the legal and political realm we are speaking about. If Elayne chooses to become Aes Sedai and not renounce her rule over her lands we end up with Andor-Cairhien effectively becoming puppet States of Tar Valon. Any direct order of Egwene who is Amyrlin must be followed by Elayne. Elayne refusing to follow the order would constitute disobedience towards the White Tower and following the order would mean subjugating the subjects of her nation to servitude towards the whims of the White Tower.

 

The wisest, smartest and politically advantageous decision would be for Elayne to renounce all affiliations to the White Tower and defrock herself form the Aes Sedai order.

[David Selig]

Is that even possible? From what we've seen in the series, I don't think the Aes Sedai have the option of giving up this status once they've been raised to the Shawl unless they are stilled or burnt out. Once Aes Sedai, you're always Aes Sedai. Egwene attempted to change that with the suggestion for retiring in the Kin, but that's yet to be accepted by the Hall, besides I am not sure it will allow for sisters as young as Elayne to do it.

 

I don't think Elayne will want to give it up anyway. She has known about the possible conflict of interest ever since she learned she could channel, and this didn't stop her in trying to gain the shawl.

 

As Egwene's struggle against the Hall demonstrated, even though Amyrlin's word is supposed to be law in theory, in practice the situation is quite different and if the sisters want to find a loophole in the customs not to obey her, they usually manage it except in extreme cases like the War against Elaida. This applies even more so for those who stay outside the Tower due to the strong custom against interfering with another sister's business. So if there's a conflict in interest, Elayne could use some of those loopholes. Besides, surely Egwene must realise that ordering directly an Aes Sedai monarch on matters related to the country she rules is a terrible political and PR move for the Tower, especially now that the White Tower is not the only game in town when it comes to channelling.

[Ashandarei]

Somehow I don't see Rand Therin letting one of his loved ones Bind herself so that she'll die at half the age she can live. (Until/unless the retiring into Kin thing is accepted by the Tower, that's what her fate will be) At least not without putting up a serious argument/debate about it with her.

[Nooska]

A) An Amyrlin who believes that the greatness of a leader is expressed by how much control they have. Egwene's primary criteria to separate the great leaders from the weak is how much control over the Hall and the Tower each woman was able to wield.

I disagree with your interpretation. Read her chapters since she was imprisoned in the Tower, and you might find a different Egwene. One that understands true leadership. Before that, yes. She was still a child, though quite skillful at manipulation. But most children eventually grow up, as she did.

 

All things considered, Egwene Sedai is well within her legal right to give a command to Elayne Sedai

[...]

It's a massive conflict of interest waiting to happen.

Again, I disagree. There are pitfalls, I won't go as far as denying that, but they are certainly avoidable. Both women are quite intelligent, and able to differentiate between AS business and Andor's. Where Elayne acts as AS, Egwene's within her rights to command her. But where she acts as Queen, her independence can still be maintained. Since Egwene isn't inviting the entire Tower to the meeting at the Field of Merrilor, one has to deduce that Elayne presence there is as Queen of Andor, hence she's free to side with Rand if she so wishes (that's a different story altogether, naturally. So far she seems as put off by the idea of breaking the Seals as Egwene).

 

 

What you're saying sounds reasonable. However this is the legal and political realm we are speaking about. If Elayne chooses to become Aes Sedai and not renounce her rule over her lands we end up with Andor-Cairhien effectively becoming puppet States of Tar Valon. Any direct order of Egwene who is Amyrlin must be followed by Elayne. Elayne refusing to follow the order would constitute disobedience towards the White Tower and following the order would mean subjugating the subjects of her nation to servitude towards the whims of the White Tower.

 

The wisest, smartest and politically advantageous decision would be for Elayne to renounce all affiliations to the White Tower and defrock herself form the Aes Sedai order.

I thought we finished that business about chains of command, seperation of stations and all that in Perrins thread.

That said, there are no legal requirements for an As to obey the amyrlin seat - if there were, there would be absolutely nothing to sniff at with Elaidas suggestion that that be added as a 4th oath - further, we have seen demonstrated, again and again, that AS operate based on their own internal power in their respective ajah's. Elayne will be quite high ranking in whichever Ajah she ends up in (green unless something really weird happens), and the internal leadership of the Ajah is the only one where you really obey - and even then there are very clear limitations on what one As can ask of another. Remember also the tradition stronger than law that you do not interfere in the business of another AS.

 

Lastly, the reason there have not been AS queens for quite a while, this has had nothing to do with becoming puppet states, but because of public mistrust of AS motives.

 

And to return to the priests as politicians - europe does not have such a rule generally at least - Scandinavia I can guarantee does not have it (in both Sweden, Norway and Denmark there are priests elected to the respective parliaments, Denmark even has a priest serving as a minister - though they do not practise as priests that is purely a practical matter as they are too busy tending their jobs as MP's / minister's to be the head of a congregation.

Could you please provide sources for your claim? (you have a bad habit of making claims, and asking people that disagree with you for sources, without having provided any of your own)

[Hopefire]

I thought we finished that business about chains of command, seperation of stations and all that in Perrins thread.

 

This is a completely different situation. Elayne created a new station for Perrin within the existing structure of Andorian nobility; it's unclear exactly to what extent that station is required to be subservient to the throne of Andor. The difficulty lies in the fact that it's a new station, and while comparable precedents may be cited, at the end of the day neither Perrin nor Elayne is bound by precedent, only by what they agree to. With the relationship between Egwene and Elayne, the precedents are already in place. An Amyrlin's decree is law for an Aes Sedai. It's how, among other things, Elayne was raised to Aes Sedai in the first place.

 

As I noted above in my original post in this thread, Elayne might just walk a fine and narrow line in times where she disagrees with the Tower's policy; Elayne Trakand would rule Andor while blithely ignoring Tar Valon decrees, while Elayne Sedai would of course dutifully follow any and all commands from the Amyrlin Seat or the Hall. Alternatively, Egwene might have the political sense not to try to govern Andor by proxy. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a great deal of meddling - Bryne's first encounter with Siuan is the sort of event that would get Elayne's back up if Egwene tried it with her.

 

Thinking of real world historical precedents, Pope Clement VII might have some rueful advice for Egwene with regards to how to deal with headstrong kings and queens.