Widening the Bore

[RedRaider]

A question has been bothering me, so I thought I'd ask if anyone had any info or opinions.

 

After the Forsaken were freed, why didn't they link and open the bore or drill a new one themselves? If the TP is so much more powerful than the OP and they had access to both, why not just do the deed and get it over with?

[fikkie77]

The Forsaken are selfish, so linking is not the first thing they would think about. Power is.

They had the seals to think about and they can't simply break them. I believe the presence of the Dragon is needed for that (The Eye of the World, Falme and Tear are examples).

The TP is not more powerful than the OP. Just easier because of a lack of gender indifference, but the price is high.

[blazetheearth]

A question has been bothering me, so I thought I'd ask if anyone had any info or opinions.

 

After the Forsaken were freed, why didn't they link and open the bore or drill a new one themselves? If the TP is so much more powerful than the OP and they had access to both, why not just do the deed and get it over with?

 

The TP cannot be used against the DO's Prison. The Creator would have to be pretty stupid to make the prison in such a way so that the essence of the DO (the TP) could hurt it. And when have we seen the Forsaken link for anything? They talk about linking, but no more than talk about it. Why? Because of trust and the fact that once you are in a circle, you can't get out. The person controlling the circle has to allow you to leave the circle once you are linked. Besides that we have no way of knowing if 13 people linked would have enough power to drill a new Bore. Remember that in the AoL they had combined the OP with technology. The creation of the Bore may have required some sort of technological amplification of the OP and we don't know how many AS were involved in the original ajah that did the original drilling. We know that Lanfear and Biedomon were involved but not how many others there were. And they would have had to drill a new Bore because the Seals LTT made are made from heartstone and any OP channeled at heartstone just makes it stronger.

[Aquarius]

Removed by Luckers. Pointless and confrontational.

[OptimusPrime]

They had the seals to think about and they can't simply break them. I believe the presence of the Dragon is needed for that (The Eye of the World, Falme and Tear are examples).

 

Ive always attributed the weakening of the Seals to be a result of the Dark One managing to reach into the Pattern despite their sole purpose being to stop him from doing so. We know that cuendillar is vulnerable to the True Power, and that the cuendillar Seals were made specifically to focus the the Dark Ones prison. I liken that to Moiraines trick of using an item to focus her channeling in Eye of the World. But because the prisons focus items are made of cuendilar and they are basically made to hold back the the Dark One, its more or less a glass hammer, or a dam made of cardboard. It might delay the water, the True Power, if it was well made, and in this case it was; there are seven items to focus it. But sooner or later that waters getting through that cardboard dam, that cuendillar barrier. When the Dark One messes with the weather I picture it as he has pushed his hand through the dam, through the Seals, and in doing so begins to make the hole slightly larger. Reincarnating folk will have done some damage I expect. Then there is Moridins True Power abuse. All this is wear and tear on the Seals, and its cause the damage that would allow the Dark One to put a chunk of his shadowy ass into a Fade. All of these I imagine to be events where water is being forced through the dam, where the True Power is being forced through the cuendillar Seals.

 

I'd like you to elaborate on this if you wouldnt mind though fikkie. What examples were you talking talking about? I know the land is one with the Dragon and all that, but I personally dont include cuendillar in the things that are affected by that. I link the Dragon-land connection is that the world IS the Pattern, as in, he is one with the Pattern, and his faith or doubt will make it stronger or weaker respectively. One of the reasons Id like to hear your thoughts is that I dont have the first four books, havent a clue where they are but they went missing ages ago so Im not as familiar with those.

[fikkie77]

Seal 1: broken at the Eye of the World. In Rand's vicinity

Seal 2: brought by Domon, broken at Falme when Rand fought Ishy.

Seal 3: brought by Turak, broken at Falme when Rand fought Ishy.

Seal 4: found by Moiraine in Tear, intact.

Seal 5: found by the supergirls in Tanchico, broken, without Rand being near.

Seal 6: found by Moiraine in Rhuidean, scratched but in one piece.

Seal 7: brought by Taim to Rand, intact.

 

Seal 5 proves I was wrong.

 

I always wondered why a DF like Taim would give Rand a seal. Rand's presence causing the seals to weaken and break would explain that, but that fails to explain the broken seal from Tanchico. So it might be only the True Power.

[Mandro]

 

Seal 5: found by the supergirls in Tanchico, broken, without Rand being near.

 

I always wondered why a DF like Taim would give Rand a seal. Rand's presence causing the seals to weaken and break would explain that, but that fails to explain the broken seal from Tanchico. So it might be only the True Power.

 

I don't care if you are wrong, that line made me laugh out loud.

[Mandro]

GO GO POWER AES SEDAI, or accepted, but it's really negotiable, lets not get into specifics, GO GO POWER AES SEDAI!

[OptimusPrime]

Seal 1: broken at the Eye of the World. In Rand's vicinity

Seal 2: brought by Domon, broken at Falme when Rand fought Ishy.

Seal 3: brought by Turak, broken at Falme when Rand fought Ishy.

Seal 4: found by Moiraine in Tear, intact.

Seal 5: found by the supergirls in Tanchico, broken, without Rand being near.

Seal 6: found by Moiraine in Rhuidean, scratched but in one piece.

Seal 7: brought by Taim to Rand, intact.

 

Seal 5 proves I was wrong.

 

I always wondered why a DF like Taim would give Rand a seal. Rand's presence causing the seals to weaken and break would explain that, but that fails to explain the broken seal from Tanchico. So it might be only the True Power.

 

Ah I see. I dont think his presence harms them myself. I suppose if he had them with him in TGS theres a chance they could have crumbled when things were rotting near him with his moodswings but Im not sure if thats what you were getting at.

 

GO GO POWER AES SEDAI, or accepted, but it's really negotiable, lets not get into specifics, GO GO POWER AES SEDAI!

 

Sounds like an Aes Sedai mind trick!

[yoniy0]

I changed the topic's title to something a little more informative.

Carry on.

[Xader]

After the Forsaken were freed, why didn't they link and open the bore or drill a new one themselves?

 

Well, we know that a great deal of AoL tech was powered by the OP, but it was still tech. Meirin and Beidomon were at the Sharom, the foremost research center in the world at the time. I imagine they used the most advanced equipment at their disposal to open the bore.

 

And we know the ability to manufacture shocklances and jo-cars and the like is lost, so it seems likely that they would be unable to duplicate the advanced equipment necessary to affect the DO's prison.

 

At least, that's my take on it...

[Zentari]

A question has been bothering me, so I thought I'd ask if anyone had any info or opinions.

 

After the Forsaken were freed, why didn't they link and open the bore or drill a new one themselves? If the TP is so much more powerful than the OP and they had access to both, why not just do the deed and get it over with?

Why didn't the forces of Light storm the place when they had the capacity to mass produce calandor level sangreal? Why didn't they just send a dozen of fades to annihilate the whole village WITH the boys in it during the night ? Why didn't Isha kill Rand while he was still a brat ? The list goes on and on.

However , we don't know if TP CAN be used to open the bore.Weaken the seals yes but that is not the same thing.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

RJ never really gave us a satisfying explanation of what the Bore actually is. Since it exists everywhere in space, what medium, exactly, would it be widened into? It could well be that the Forsaken have no power to widen the Bore; indeed, if they had such power, wouldn't they have used it during the War of Power when there were a lot more of them and there weren't yet any seals on the Bore?

[aross]

I always wondered why a DF like Taim would give Rand a seal.

 

Actually fikkie77, I think I can help clarify this point at least. You see, the Dark realizes that "clearing away the rubble" is the first part of imprisoning the Dark One. The Dark One is quite happy to act to weaken the light and to try to achieve his aims while poorly held. The Dark One still has quite a bit of strength at this stage, and growing armies and support.

 

Yep, to put it simply, he won't want to be freed until his victory is assured. However, Rand still serves the Light and Mat and Perrin still live. The Light will want to break the seals without delay so that those conditions do not change.

[Alternate34]

I have a few ideas on this.

 

First, the Forsaken didn't break the seals on the Dark One's prison because they can't. It might require the physical seals to do so, and those were scattered all over the place. They don't have a seal detector. Ishamael is the only one who has been in and out periodically. They have problems finding a lot of stuff they want.

 

Second, assume either that they can find the seals or that they don't need the physical seal to bust open the Bore. Perhaps they are purposely not doing so. There may be a few reasons for this. The rubble clearing theory from Herid (?) indicates that to win against the Dark One the seals must be broken. The Dark One may know this as well, so he nixed breaking the seals.

 

The first thing you think is why? Wouldn't the Dark One want unfettered access to the real world? I can theorize a few reasons why this is not so. The rubble clearing theory is the prime evidence. There is other evidence. Early in his quest, Rand performs miracles. Talking with the Creator, levelling the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap at the end of TEotW, having a spectral imaging battle with Ishamael at Falme at the end of tGH. As things progress and Rand descends deeper into madness, believing Lews Therin to be a separate entity, he begins to lose control. Perhaps it is only more understanding on our part, but Rand's great deeds are easily explainable as the series continues (bringing water to Rhuidean, cleansing the taint, etc) rather than mystifying. As Rand distances himself from Lews, Lews begins to seize the power from Rand (which is actually mad Rand seizing the power and doing stuff).

 

Where am I going? Well, if the Dark One decided to just blow open the bore, he deals with a relatively sane Rand who is at one with Lews Therin unknowingly, meaning The Dark One rolls the dice that Rand accesses some goofy power like he did at the end of tEotW and tGH and wins. By waiting, he was hoping to deal with an insane Dragon who totally screws stuff up and does something like destroy the world or join up with the Shadow. It also gave his minions time to hopefully develop bases of power and prevent the forces of Light from presenting a unified front.

[maradon]

I may be wrong here, but I had always thought that the bore was located at a thin part of the DO's prison (which is now located at SG). Perhaps they had openned the bore to the extent of this thinness and to extend it further would be akin to shattering the prison, which I would assume requires incredible power.

 

I too had also assumed that Rands ta'veren ability had something to do with the seals breaking. If it was to do with the TP then Moridin could've just found the seals in one of his little 40 year escapades and weakened them.

[Mulk]

I'm not sure the Dark One CAN be fully freed unless the Pattern is broken. And I'm not sure anyone but the Dragon has the capability to break it open in a way that will free him. Given how long this has been going on (by inference, since we have no direct line on how old the world is), that would seem to be the case given how many times this war has been fought with the Dark One never winning. If all the Dark One had to do to get free is win the Last Battle, balefiring Rand or killing the boys back in Emond's Field or whatever would have done the trick. I just can't believe it is that simple. If, however, it takes the pattern's chosen champion acting in a specific way to end it all, that limits the Dark One's ability to break free to his ability to subvert the Dragon AND get him to destroy everything before the Light can deal with him by death, severing, dismemberment, braid pulling/arm crossing or imperious sniffing. That's quite a bit harder to pull off then influencing the masses with fear and shadowspawn and power, all of which the Dark One possesses in mass quantity.

[Elan Tedronai]

A question has been bothering me, so I thought I'd ask if anyone had any info or opinions.

 

After the Forsaken were freed, why didn't they link and open the bore or drill a new one themselves? If the TP is so much more powerful than the OP and they had access to both, why not just do the deed and get it over with?

 

I agree. It's really a massive plothole The prison to the DO is a physical one as demonstrated by lanfear and beidomon. Obviously the seals need to be broken first so that the patch LTT made can be removed.

 

 

Perhaps you need a massive amount of power say a choedan kal to rip open the prison completely

[randsc]

Yeah there really isn't a good reason why a new Bore wasn't bored, given what we know of how that world works.

 

Except that that would have resulted in the world's shortest and least interesting epic fantasy.

 

It's sort of a, "Why didn't Gandalf simply hop on Gwaihir, fly to Mount Doom, and drop in the Ring?" question.

[Fel]

Yeah there really isn't a good reason why a new Bore wasn't bored, given what we know of how that world works.

 

Except that that would have resulted in the world's shortest and least interesting epic fantasy.

 

It's sort of a, "Why didn't Gandalf simply hop on Gwaihir, fly to Mount Doom, and drop in the Ring?" question.

I disagree. The technology back in AOL was so far advanced over what they have now that it's impossible to say how exactly they did it. Maybe they needed the equivalent of a CERN-type particle collider in combination with the one power to make the original bore... Or a thousand other requirements that are not available in a world where indoor plumbing is advanced technology.

 

There are plenty of instances of "why didn't they do this..." in the books, but i don't see this as one of them.

[FarShainMael]

Yeah there really isn't a good reason why a new Bore wasn't bored, given what we know of how that world works.

 

Except that that would have resulted in the world's shortest and least interesting epic fantasy.

 

It's sort of a, "Why didn't Gandalf simply hop on Gwaihir, fly to Mount Doom, and drop in the Ring?" question.

 

Because he would have been grabbed by the Nazgul.

 

In Randland, LTT would have intervened.

[ranjitb]

The prison to the DO is a physical one as demonstrated by lanfear and beidomon. Obviously the seals need to be broken first so that the patch LTT made can be removed.

 

 

Perhaps you need a massive amount of power say a choedan kal to rip open the prison completely

 

I wouldn't say the "prison" and by extension "the bore" are physical per se, it's merely the limitations of humans that they can only describe them as such.

Imagine the drilling of the bore similar to the cleansing, in reverse. Though Rand "conceptualized" and "focused" it to happen at Shadar Logoth, it happened everywhere and in all worlds and all at once. I have a hard time imagining that the dark one is really sealed up in a globe somewhere, with a little hole in it. That it is described as such is a limitation of our language, not of the actual reality.

 

Take the situation of the seals themself - it is repeatedly pointed out that the disks aren't really what's sealing the DO away, they are just the physical representation of it. Moving them around from place to place doesn't seem to affect where, or how "wide open" the bore is.

[Orderofolde]

To me, it always felt like each time Rand killed a Forsaken, that one of the seals broke. Could the Forsaken have been used as some focus or tie to the seals, or themselves be part of them?

[herid]

To me, it always felt like each time Rand killed a Forsaken, that one of the seals broke.

That's not true. There are only 4 seals that were broken.

 

Seal one. Broken at the end of EoTW. Two Forsaken dead - Aginor and Balthamel.

Seals two and three. Broken at the end of TGH. No Forsaken dead.

Seal four. Found intact in Tanchico. Accidentally broken on the way to Salidar. No Forsaken dead.

That's it. On the other hand we have deaths of Ishamael, Sammael, Rhavin, Semirhage, Lanfear and Asmodean. None of them lead to breaking of any seals.

 

There is no correlation between deaths of Forsaken and breaking of the seals that I can see.