How To Fix Egwene

[ironchefofmunchies]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

 

 

That scene with her and Perrin in T'H was a good start. Egwene spends since, what, Book 2 going there-trains with the Aiel Wise Ones for a couple of books, and becomes the greatest Dream Walker of all the Aes Sedai in hundreds of years.

 

Perrin spends a couple chapters with Hopper and suddenly is telling Egwene "what? you didn't know you could block balefire with your hand? Gotta go noob-be careful here."

 

 

I loved that scene.

[Sleeper]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Yeah, I guess it depends on your interpretation of her reasoning. I still think she's doing stuff for the right reasons, but I won't argue that she's a huge bitch. Which is actually a shame, because if you read the first 3 or 4 books, she's actually one of the more interesting and better written of the woman characters. She might have thought she knew better than Rand in the TEoTW, but one also gets the sense from her that she actually cares about him and listens to him, unlike the way she seems to be now.

 

Additionally, I'm operating on a more broad definition of antihero, namely a protagonist who does not possess qualities of the archetypal hero.

[idiostock]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Yeah, I guess it depends on your interpretation of her reasoning. I still think she's doing stuff for the right reasons, but I won't argue that she's a huge bitch. Which is actually a shame, because if you read the first 3 or 4 books, she's actually one of the more interesting and better written of the woman characters. She might have thought she knew better than Rand in the TEoTW, but one also gets the sense from her that she actually cares about him and listens to him, unlike the way she seems to be now.

 

Additionally, I'm operating on a more broad definition of antihero, namely a protagonist who does not possess qualities of the archetypal hero.

 

I gotcha, broksi, I think of antiheroes as Batmans and the like. Good guys that break the rules andalsoBatmanledtoanincreaseincrimeinGotham.

 

I've actually been rereading the series, grabbing which ever book is closest on my way to school. From what I've read, she's already enormously obnoxious in tSR, chastising Rand for being "rude to Aviendha" when he has no idea what the hell is going on with Aviendha. There's always the fact that I know Aviendha is falling for him at this point, though. I couldn't point to the spot, but it's shortly after the magical Rhuidean adventure.

[Muad Cheade]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Yeah, I guess it depends on your interpretation of her reasoning. I still think she's doing stuff for the right reasons, but I won't argue that she's a huge bitch. Which is actually a shame, because if you read the first 3 or 4 books, she's actually one of the more interesting and better written of the woman characters. She might have thought she knew better than Rand in the TEoTW, but one also gets the sense from her that she actually cares about him and listens to him, unlike the way she seems to be now.

 

Additionally, I'm operating on a more broad definition of antihero, namely a protagonist who does not possess qualities of the archetypal hero.

Wow. Really? I guess she was wrong to assume that she would know the man she grew up with and was engaged to more than most. The fact that she's trying to relate to Rand as the Rand not the Dragon Reborn is admirable and something the majority of Aes Sedai don't do. "Put in place?" That doesn't sound extremely sexist.

[idiostock]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Yeah, I guess it depends on your interpretation of her reasoning. I still think she's doing stuff for the right reasons, but I won't argue that she's a huge bitch. Which is actually a shame, because if you read the first 3 or 4 books, she's actually one of the more interesting and better written of the woman characters. She might have thought she knew better than Rand in the TEoTW, but one also gets the sense from her that she actually cares about him and listens to him, unlike the way she seems to be now.

 

Additionally, I'm operating on a more broad definition of antihero, namely a protagonist who does not possess qualities of the archetypal hero.

Wow. Really? I guess she was wrong to assume that she would know the man she grew up with and was engaged to more than most. The fact that she's trying to relate to Rand as the Rand not the Dragon Reborn is admirable and something the majority of Aes Sedai don't do. "Put in place?" That doesn't sound extremely sexist.

Her place as Pope is second to his place as Kung Fu Jesus. No one said her place was subservient to men. Egwene is in a position to be more than authoritative over just about any man. I reckon, despite the fact that she knows absolutely nothing about war, Egwene will get the have her say in the fighting of TG.

[anotherfingolfin]

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Yeah, I guess it depends on your interpretation of her reasoning. I still think she's doing stuff for the right reasons, but I won't argue that she's a huge bitch. Which is actually a shame, because if you read the first 3 or 4 books, she's actually one of the more interesting and better written of the woman characters. She might have thought she knew better than Rand in the TEoTW, but one also gets the sense from her that she actually cares about him and listens to him, unlike the way she seems to be now.

 

Additionally, I'm operating on a more broad definition of antihero, namely a protagonist who does not possess qualities of the archetypal hero.

 

Well antiheroes are meant to be flawed, and morally ambiguous. In fact, they don't even always have to do things for the right reasons, if you want to use a broad definition of the term.

While I would like to believe she has been written as a antiheroine, I get the feeling that she was supposed to be written as a paragon of some sort, unambiguously amazing, but the writers failed at that, hence the 'fixing'. Of course, I believe that it's too late for fixing.

[ranjitb]

I have to agree with anotherfingolfin in that the biggest issue with Egwene isn't what the readers think of her, its what the BOOKS think of her.

Leave aside all of the what she dids and why she dids and you can look at the "problem" if you will one of two ways.

 

1. Egwene never makes any mistakes, everything she does is right and for the best, and in the end everyone will see this. Any holes or inconsistencies will be filled up with secret, no-basis reveals (eg. - oh she had commissioned this grand study of the bore-sealing problem, that we never saw happen, and never saw anyone think about, but she had done it anyway). Her personal power will continue to grow as people realize they know nothing in comparison to her, and she must be allowed to lead them.

 

Ok, do you really want to read about this character ? I certainly don't. I suppose its good news if you are projecting yourself onto Egwene in a pre-teen wish fulfillment sort of way but by every measure what I have described is an awful literary character.

BUT THIS IS EXACTLY HOW SHE IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS.

 

2. Egwene is right most of the time, but occasionally her own personal blind spots lead her to blunder, just like every other character. These blunders actually have consequences and she realizes she may not know all the best all the time. People around her call her on her mistakes (in private, as to not impugn her authority), she has some self reflection, grows, changes, and is a better person for it.

 

Now, this sounds like a much better character to me. Feel free to disagree.

BUT THIS NEVER HAPPENS. NOT ONCE.

 

I don't want Egwene debased, deposed, dragged through the mud (ok, I would enjoy that since I hate her so much), but it doesn't need to happen. What DOES need to happen is for her to show a single moment of humility for a genuine reason. But since she has always been written as a thinly disguised ode to Harriet Jordan, I doubt this is likely to happen.

[randsc]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Turn her into the sneakiest, most competent, most formidable, nouveau-forsaken in the whole frikkin' series.

 

I would so love it if she was dark side. She'd go from one of my least favorites, to possibly my favorite.

 

*sigh* never gonna happen.

 

I was just re-reading the thread.

 

I would actually love to see this happen. It would make all of the frustrations about Egwene's lack of introspection and arrogance completely understandable, and actually interesting.

 

She would probably become my favorite character.

[capuga]

I have to agree with anotherfingolfin in that the biggest issue with Egwene isn't what the readers think of her, its what the BOOKS think of her.

Leave aside all of the what she dids and why she dids and you can look at the "problem" if you will one of two ways.

 

1. Egwene never makes any mistakes, everything she does is right and for the best, and in the end everyone will see this. Any holes or inconsistencies will be filled up with secret, no-basis reveals (eg. - oh she had commissioned this grand study of the bore-sealing problem, that we never saw happen, and never saw anyone think about, but she had done it anyway). Her personal power will continue to grow as people realize they know nothing in comparison to her, and she must be allowed to lead them.

 

Ok, do you really want to read about this character ? I certainly don't. I suppose its good news if you are projecting yourself onto Egwene in a pre-teen wish fulfillment sort of way but by every measure what I have described is an awful literary character.

BUT THIS IS EXACTLY HOW SHE IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS.

 

2. Egwene is right most of the time, but occasionally her own personal blind spots lead her to blunder, just like every other character. These blunders actually have consequences and she realizes she may not know all the best all the time. People around her call her on her mistakes (in private, as to not impugn her authority), she has some self reflection, grows, changes, and is a better person for it.

 

Now, this sounds like a much better character to me. Feel free to disagree.

BUT THIS NEVER HAPPENS. NOT ONCE.

 

I don't want Egwene debased, deposed, dragged through the mud (ok, I would enjoy that since I hate her so much), but it doesn't need to happen. What DOES need to happen is for her to show a single moment of humility for a genuine reason. But since she has always been written as a thinly disguised ode to Harriet Jordan, I doubt this is likely to happen.

 

While I actually mostly agree with the point of your post, that last sentence is an unnecessary personal attack on RJ and Harriet (especially considering the amount of distaste for Egwene that many of us post on these threads). Its also unfounded, since RJ says there are bits of Harriet in all the female characters and no single woman in the series is based on Harriet. Lets keep the discussion to the character traits as seen in the text.

[MauricXe]

I don't know why you all hate her. I hear she has a mean stare.

[Songstress]

 

1. She is a personality chameleon with no sense of her own self or loyalties. She switches thought and loyalties based on whatever group she happens to be around. When she was in the TR she couldn't wait to braid her hair and train to be a Wisdom. As soon as Moiraine shows up and tells her she can channel the braid comes out because AS don't braid their hair. As soon as she joins the Aiel she doesn't worry much at all about being AS and tries to be a perfect Aiel. During this time she also abandons her loyalties to the man she thought she would marry (this has nothing to do with Rand in particular but just another point of her shifting loyalties) to help the AS and Aiel WOs spy on him. Once she gets the call from the WT she abandons the Aiel and tries to become perfect AS. At this point you she her worry very little about the Aiel and their council, despite the fact that her own personal experiences should have shown her that the Aiel are a more honorable and capable group of women with less political manipulations and it appears likely less darkfriends. Her own personal opinions shift easily at this point as illustrated by her stance on the Oaths which she originally (and correctly) believed to be a bad idea but then changed her point of view to the WT's standard operating robot thinking really quickly.

 

I was just talking to my friend who introduced me to the series yesterday... She's only read EotW and the first part of tGH, but is looking forward to catching up on the rest of the books when she has a chance.

 

She said at the beginning of the book, she really liked Egwene, but by the end of the first book she'd started to find her annoying for just this very reason. I had to laugh realizing how much more of it she'd have to put up with for the rest of the series.

 

But honestly, while her attitude (read arrogance) is a bit grating, I can see how in the end it may make Egwene a stronger person and a better leader if she can take the best of what she's learned from every experience, the strengths of every group she's associated with, and acknowledge and integrate them all into who she finally becomes. In the meantime, she's young and still learning who she is and wants to be. I'm willing to cut her some slack for the sake of the story, just hoping that by the end of AMoL it's proved to be worth it.

[Mandro]

I would probably be happy that she died in the end. She and her boyfriend are 2 of the whiniest selfish idiots in the series.

[Mandro]

 

1. She is a personality chameleon with no sense of her own self or loyalties. She switches thought and loyalties based on whatever group she happens to be around. When she was in the TR she couldn't wait to braid her hair and train to be a Wisdom. As soon as Moiraine shows up and tells her she can channel the braid comes out because AS don't braid their hair. As soon as she joins the Aiel she doesn't worry much at all about being AS and tries to be a perfect Aiel. During this time she also abandons her loyalties to the man she thought she would marry (this has nothing to do with Rand in particular but just another point of her shifting loyalties) to help the AS and Aiel WOs spy on him. Once she gets the call from the WT she abandons the Aiel and tries to become perfect AS. At this point you she her worry very little about the Aiel and their council, despite the fact that her own personal experiences should have shown her that the Aiel are a more honorable and capable group of women with less political manipulations and it appears likely less darkfriends. Her own personal opinions shift easily at this point as illustrated by her stance on the Oaths which she originally (and correctly) believed to be a bad idea but then changed her point of view to the WT's standard operating robot thinking really quickly.

 

I was just talking to my friend who introduced me to the series yesterday... She's only read EotW and the first part of tGH, but is looking forward to catching up on the rest of the books when she has a chance.

 

She said at the beginning of the book, she really liked Egwene, but by the end of the first book she'd started to find her annoying for just this very reason. I had to laugh realizing how much more of it she'd have to put up with for the rest of the series.

 

But honestly, while her attitude (read arrogance) is a bit grating, I can see how in the end it may make Egwene a stronger person and a better leader if she can take the best of what she's learned from every experience, the strengths of every group she's associated with, and acknowledge and integrate them all into who she finally becomes. In the meantime, she's young and still learning who she is and wants to be. I'm willing to cut her some slack for the sake of the story, just hoping that by the end of AMoL it's proved to be worth it.

 

Ever been in charge of something? Especially when you were young?

 

No it doesn't make her better at leadership, it makes her an insult to all those who follow her.

 

In TAR Egwene [talking to nynaeve] didn't say "You will call me mother before others." No, she didn't say that, she Said "Then call me mother." it wasn't a respectful description of orderly vernacular[ and form] , but an exercise of domination. BS tried to offset it later when Eqwene DELIBERATELY struck at Nynaeve [during the testing of the 100 weeves] like a catty chick who needed to be in control. OH! All the OTHER AS were gonna be mean to Nyn, because of how she was raised, and because she's a wilder, and because she's more powerful than all of the (at the moment Nyn is the most powerful woman linked to the AS be she AS or not) and egwene had no problem joining into the mean girl flamebook.

 

Egwene Followed, She did not lead with nyneave, that alone is enough for me to think that she is worthless. Egwene fights to control everything to the most minute aspect, her greatest council, her greatest lover and protecter, her oldest friends, but you know what? THEY JUST DON'T KNOW! *stamps foot*

 

Jordan really did not know how to write women.

 

All of rands harem are stereotypes, and the only women who had any aspect of redemption are Moiraine (because rand was a jerk) and Nynaeve.

 

The females are LOUSY! like Elayne wondering what to do with her mother? WTF?! That's your mom you arrogant broad! Egwene getting angry at Gawayn for reuniting with with his mother that he thought was dead, because it would harm her standing? Cadsuane didn't TEACH rand anything, she drove him to the edge, It ended up working out, not because she knew a damn thing, but because she had to be in control.

 

I've been in leadership positions, and all of those women would have been administratively demoted.

 

Though Garyth deserves Siuan because it was Garyth who taught her how to be a woman and get over that crap.

And Gawyn deserves Egwene cuz Gawyn is a big fat whiny little female dog.

 

I hate the women are depicted, they could have ben so much more, but why they were written the way that they were is beyond me.

 

[lots of editing, I will try to point it out]

[Mandro]

Summary, easiest way to fix egwene? Kill her off.

[nolirion]

Her place as Pope is second to his place as Kung Fu Jesus.

Well that just make my day !!

Altought he was a Kung fu-Kendo Jesus before ToM ,now he is more like freaking Zen master Myrddin , but that off the point .

Yet I think you could see her as a Pope (before Industrial revolution) .

Myself I think she don't need fixing , right now she is as good as an Aes'sedai pre-Ashaman can get .

She will need a non Aes Sedai (female) to confront her opinion ( and that mean's Rand but not only ) she seem quiet the bully for now.

[Orderofolde]

What if she died? Would that fix her?

 

Gah, probably not.

 

She would refuse to die. She is the Amyrlin Seat. Nobody can kill her, she said so.

 

Or she would haunt people in TAR.

 

Fixing her sounds really dodge. Like she is a dog needing to be de-sexed. (one can argue this is so )

 

I just get this image of scientists planting a chip in her brain that makes her less bitchy and arrogant.

 

But yeah, to my point earlier. As a character, I dont think she needs to be "fixed" as such. I just think she is still developing.

 

I mean, in the end, she has to see that Rand has to break the seals, right? Because, its prophisied and all that?

 

I look at it like what Rand was going through (most noteably in tGS). She just hasnt opened her eyes fully yet.

Okay, apart from the fact that Rand is using her to help him assemble all the world's armies, (I mean come on, you show up and announce that you are ending the world in a month and then leave?)I think that her time being strapped has made her too hard, too into thinking that only she knows best, that's what has come across in my reading. She didn't even really ask if the Seals need to be broken to reseal the Dark One away, she arbitrarily starts to condemn Rand for that, which I think he was counting on, knowing that that was what divided the women and men and kept the women from helping him last time. He has something up his sleeve he's yet to play, especially since he plans on meeting her on the FoM before he leaves for the Blight and to face the DO. She's also being too hard on Nyn and Elayne trying to "make" them Aes Sedai after she raised them with the demands for the testing and the oaths. I think that has more than been foreshadowed and kudos for Nyn telling it how it is, that the Aes Sedai are putting the Tower before all and that they don't know the very people they are trying to save anymore. Setting it up for lots of revelation and awesomeness for the next book.

[Dicora]

Egwene is who she is. She has been shaped into the Amyrlin.

She had to be a manipulative forceful character during her rein on Little Tower.

Just like any woman of the White Tower, she believes men cannot think for themselves and all of them are fools. That any man capable of thinking has to have a woman behind him.

After the uniting of the white tower, Egwene is trying some humility. She is trying to change the manipulative culture of the Tower.

I think Nyneave will bring perspective and teach the sisters what their true role in the world should be. We might see the return of the "Servants of the People" the true AS.

[Hopefire]

Random thoughts.

 

Three of the five Emond's Field characters have had a definite "moment of definition" in TGS and TOM.

 

-On Dragonmount, Rand finally let go of his anger against the universe for putting him in the position he's in, and finally let himself truly, fully feel again.

-In forging The Hammer, Perrin finally was able to reconcile the simple blacksmith with the person he's become, to accept that all of his pieces have worth and give him strength.

-In taking the Test, Nynaeve finally put her priorities fully in order, and now knows to her bones that she'll always put her heart and what's right before politics and what's expected.

 

Mat might have had a moment like that, where he sacrifices his eye to save Moiraine; however, I'm not sure it fits. For the other characters, it's a moment of personal illumination. I don't think that Mat is any more or less illuminated after losing his eye. But then, I don't think that Mat needs a moment like that; of all the characters in the series, Mat has been the most consistently true to himself, and I think that he knows exactly what he is: a charming rogue that never goes back on his word, who hates fighting but who is damn good at it, and who wouldn't hesitate to risk his life to save someone else's. He is what he is, and he knows it. Alternatively, the boots conversation might be Mat's "this is who I am" moment. I'm not really sure.

 

Egwene might have had her moment as well: where she thinks that she's the Amyrlin Seat, that the Amyrlin Seat is the White Tower, and that the White Tower does not bend or break. That Mesaana, one of the Forsaken, is nothing but an insect compared to her. For better or for worse, that might be the character defining revelation that Egwene has, in life with the revelations of Rand, Perrin and Nynaeve. For better or for worse, that might be the "this is who I am" moment for Egwene, and her character might not see any modification before the end of the series. It also somewhat fits with her chameleon-like ways of altering her identity; her personal identity, in its final form, is wrapped in that of the Amyrlin Seat.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Random thoughts.

 

Three of the five Emond's Field characters have had a definite "moment of definition" in TGS and TOM.

 

-On Dragonmount, Rand finally let go of his anger against the universe for putting him in the position he's in, and finally let himself truly, fully feel again.

-In forging The Hammer, Perrin finally was able to reconcile the simple blacksmith with the person he's become, to accept that all of his pieces have worth and give him strength.

-In taking the Test, Nynaeve finally put her priorities fully in order, and now knows to her bones that she'll always put her heart and what's right before politics and what's expected.

 

Mat might have had a moment like that, where he sacrifices his eye to save Moiraine; however, I'm not sure it fits. For the other characters, it's a moment of personal illumination. I don't think that Mat is any more or less illuminated after losing his eye. But then, I don't think that Mat needs a moment like that; of all the characters in the series, Mat has been the most consistently true to himself, and I think that he knows exactly what he is: a charming rogue that never goes back on his word, who hates fighting but who is damn good at it, and who wouldn't hesitate to risk his life to save someone else's. He is what he is, and he knows it. Alternatively, the boots conversation might be Mat's "this is who I am" moment. I'm not really sure.

 

Egwene might have had her moment as well: where she thinks that she's the Amyrlin Seat, that the Amyrlin Seat is the White Tower, and that the White Tower does not bend or break. That Mesaana, one of the Forsaken, is nothing but an insect compared to her. For better or for worse, that might be the character defining revelation that Egwene has, in life with the revelations of Rand, Perrin and Nynaeve. For better or for worse, that might be the "this is who I am" moment for Egwene, and her character might not see any modification before the end of the series. It also somewhat fits with her chameleon-like ways of altering her identity; her personal identity, in its final form, is wrapped in that of the Amyrlin Seat.

 

Hopefire, if that's the case with Egwene, then it's understandable why she is so often disliked by the readers. Every other character you mentioned had this moment or moments of self-definition and they all have defined themselves as this or that kind of person. Egwene sees herself as a political figure only, an office, an institution. When you realise this is not outer appearance but her deepest self, then it becomes terryfying - there is no actual person inside, only different roles she played, especially the role of a strong Amyrlin. I think she need a good psychotherapist , a year or two away from the job and maybe some sharing of power and responsibility. Maybe Aes Sedai should switch to more collective kind of government and let poor Egwene rest and think a little about what her life is really about besides being very strong and authoritative - because if that's all , then she is a very, very poor person.

By the way, when Egwene began this line of thought that she, as the Amyrlin, was the White Tower that would not bend or break, that Mesaana was an insect in comparison etc. - I began rooting for Mesaana. It seems to me that thinking of other people as insects is kind of evil, no matter who they are

[sfgiantsfanmike]

I generally like Egwene... but on this last read through I got to the point of Matt saving Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne from the BA in the stone. Needless to say I was surprised how badly all three treated Matt for saving there skins. I didn't remember it being that bad... or the fact that only Nynaeve had the grace to realize/admit he helped them out. It never mentions an appology from the other two for the treatment they gave him.

 

Didn't want to start a whole new thread just to say that but I think I'm starting to see why Egwene is so disliked. Mind you, I like the character and give her credit for still being sane after what she's been through by the time she was 18 and get .that a lot of her faults are common in ladies her age (ever know an 18 year old that didn't think they knew more than everyone else? It's fairly uncommon, especially with those in a position of leadership/importance).

 

As to how to "fix" her: I agree she will need to be humbled, much like Rand, Nynaeve, and, to aesser extent, Elayne (might not be a popular statement put she has grown in that area... but isn't there yet) have.

[ironchefofmunchies]

Or she would haunt people in TAR.

 

^

THIS. Made me LOL because it would totally be in character for Egwene.

[Sleeper]

I generally like Egwene... but on this last read through I got to the point of Matt saving Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne from the BA in the stone. Needless to say I was surprised how badly all three treated Matt for saving there skins. I didn't remember it being that bad... or the fact that only Nynaeve had the grace to realize/admit he helped them out. It never mentions an appology from the other two for the treatment they gave him.

 

Didn't want to start a whole new thread just to say that but I think I'm starting to see why Egwene is so disliked. Mind you, I like the character and give her credit for still being sane after what she's been through by the time she was 18 and get .that a lot of her faults are common in ladies her age (ever know an 18 year old that didn't think they knew more than everyone else? It's fairly uncommon, especially with those in a position of leadership/importance).

 

As to how to "fix" her: I agree she will need to be humbled, much like Rand, Nynaeve, and, to aesser extent, Elayne (might not be a popular statement put she has grown in that area... but isn't there yet) have.

Yeah, Mat gets slapped around by women throughout the entire series, it's annoying as hell.

[randsc]

I generally like Egwene... but on this last read through I got to the point of Matt saving Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne from the BA in the stone. Needless to say I was surprised how badly all three treated Matt for saving there skins. I didn't remember it being that bad... or the fact that only Nynaeve had the grace to realize/admit he helped them out. It never mentions an appology from the other two for the treatment they gave him.

 

Didn't want to start a whole new thread just to say that but I think I'm starting to see why Egwene is so disliked. Mind you, I like the character and give her credit for still being sane after what she's been through by the time she was 18 and get .that a lot of her faults are common in ladies her age (ever know an 18 year old that didn't think they knew more than everyone else? It's fairly uncommon, especially with those in a position of leadership/importance).

 

As to how to "fix" her: I agree she will need to be humbled, much like Rand, Nynaeve, and, to aesser extent, Elayne (might not be a popular statement put she has grown in that area... but isn't there yet) have.

 

Actually, it was Elayne that had the grace to apologize (after the necessity of doing so was explained to her by Birgitte and Aviendha). Nynaeve was forced into it, and only did so because they needed something from Mat. That was sort of the last stand of Dark Nynaeve.

 

Egwene has never apologized, and never will.

 

 

Birgitte took a sip of the tea with a grateful murmur, and oddly, when she looked at Nynaeve again, she did not seem so intoxicated. “I talked him out of that. I don’t think he was really serious. All he wants now is an apology and thanks.”

 

Nynaeve’s eyes popped. She had talked him out of that? Apologize? To Matrim Cauthon? “Never,” she growled.

 

“For what?” Elayne wanted to know, as if that mattered. She pretended not to see Nynaeve’s glare.

 

“The Stone of Tear,” Birgitte said, and Nynaeve’s head whipped around. The woman no longer sounded intoxicated at all. “He says he went into the Stone, him and Juilin, to free the pair of you from a dungeon you couldn’t escape on your own.” She shook her head slowly, in wonder. “I don’t know that I would have done that for anyone short of Gaidal. Not the Stone. He says you gave him a backhanded thanks and made him feel he ought to be grateful you didn’t kick him.”

 

It was true, in a way, but all distorted. There Mat had been with that mocking grin of his, saying he was there to pull their chestnuts off the fire or some such. Even then he had thought he could tell them what to do. “Only one of the Black sisters was on guard in the dungeon,” Nynaeve muttered, “and we had taken care of her.” True, they hadn’t yet been able to figure out how to open the door, shielded. “Be’lal wasn’t really interested in us, anyway—it was just to lure Rand. Moiraine may already have killed him, by then, for all we know.”

 

“The Black Ajah.” Birgitte’s voice was flatter than the floor tiles. “And one of the Forsaken. Mat never mentioned them. You owe him thanks on your knees, Elayne. Both of you do. The man deserves it. And Juilin, as well.”

 

Blood rushed to Nynaeve’s face. He had never mentioned . . . ? That despicable, despicable man! “I will not apologize to Matrim Cauthon, not on my deathbed.”

 

Aviendha leaned toward Elayne, touching her knee. “Near-sister, I will say this delicately.” She looked and sounded about as delicate as a stone post. “If this is true, you have toh toward Mat Cauthon, you and Nynaeve. And you have made it worse since, just by the actions I have seen.”

 

“Toh!” Nynaeve exclaimed. Those two were always talking about this toh foolery. “We aren’t Aiel, Aviendha. And Mat Cauthon is a thorn in the foot to everybody he meets.”

 

But Elayne was nodding. “I see. You are right, Aviendha. But what must we do? You will have to help me, near-sister. I don’t intend to try to become Aiel, but I . . . I want you to be proud of me.”

 

“We will not apologize!” Nynaeve snapped.

 

[herid]

It just occurred to me that Egwene still hasn't met her toh to Ruarc. A nice way to bring her down a peg would be to make her meet her toh at FOM in front of everybody.

[David Selig]

Rhuarc is a man, so he doesn't count, as far as Egwene is concerned.