How To Fix Egwene

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't appreciate you attacking me by saying I'm whining. I'm pointing out a lot of the truths in this story. RJ has created a complex, interesting world, and that's why I read it, but there is definite inequality between the sexes in the story and other troubling things, like Rand being in love with 3 women, and more appalling, them all being ok with sharing him. My point is, the triumvirate have basically had everything handed to them. People follow Rand because of the prophecies. mat became a military genius overnight. Perrin actually is the least annoying in this respect as his rise to leadership, saving the Two Rivers, seems more natural. However he also just magically connects with wolves, and he doesn't really have to work at it. There's no honing of his skills, until this last book with learning TAR. Egwene, nynave, elayne, they were all born with the spark, but they've had to develop their skills.

 

Oh come on. Those girls are in a way as special as the boys. Egwene can make Cuendillar, is a dreamer and rediscovered the female sort of Travelling, Elayne can make Ter'angreal, and Nyneave was immediately made an Accepted and her powerful healing ability. All three were permanently fawned over, they were posing as Aes Sedai after a few months at the WT and it's not really as if they had to work very hard to achieve anything either. The three men certainly have gotten advantages because of them being ta'veren, but they paid for it by being pursued all the time by darkfriends and worse and all the pain and danger they had to get through.

[Smokey Bear]

And it's funny how many female characters (from what I've seen on here) are disliked.

Faile is another one who I've read should be killed off.

 

I must be one of the only wot fans who like both Egwene *and* Faile :)

Only characters I dont like are Gawyn and Elayne, and I liked Elayne in the first few books, and the latter ones, just not in ACOS or whenever it was her and Nynaeve went to Ebou Dar. As for Gawyn I just never really liked him

[heliage]

 

Right. Rand is the super-powerful prophecised saviour, central character. You REALLY cannot compare his 'rise' to any of the others'. And it's not like he hasn't undergone the most extreme trials and tribulations.

Mat and Perrin have the Ta'veren thing going for them as well. You could argue that it is a little deus ex machina, but it isn't, as it was established fairly early on.

Mat's gaining badass knowledge from the Finns could be called a bit of a shortcut. And yeah, I guess it is. If you accept his super-military genius though, then him becoming a military leader is really NOT a stretch.

Perrin, well him as a leader seems a little unnatural to me, but maybe it's supposed to, as it does to the character himself. I guess his rise stems from his defence of the TR. I think that that is a very legitimate starting point, but yeah, the exponential growth in his following does seem a little contrived.

You can't really whine about Perrin being better at T'A'R than Egwene. His link with the wolves was established very early on, and that is why he is so good at it. I mean, different species have certain advantages over others. He shares this affinity that the woves have. It's like, no matter how much a human trains, sprinting is always going to be easier for a cheetah. That's how you have to view Perrin being so much better than Egwene.

 

I don't appreciate you attacking me by saying I'm whining. I'm pointing out a lot of the truths in this story. RJ has created a complex, interesting world, and that's why I read it, but there is definite inequality between the sexes in the story and other troubling things, like Rand being in love with 3 women, and more appalling, them all being ok with sharing him. My point is, the triumvirate have basically had everything handed to them. People follow Rand because of the prophecies. mat became a military genius overnight. Perrin actually is the least annoying in this respect as his rise to leadership, saving the Two Rivers, seems more natural. However he also just magically connects with wolves, and he doesn't really have to work at it. There's no honing of his skills, until this last book with learning TAR. Egwene, nynave, elayne, they were all born with the spark, but they've had to develop their skills.

 

I think what you have to remember is that Egwene learned TAR with no mortal danger. She learned at the rate the WO wanted her to learn. Also she did learn some things I think Perrin can't or doesn't know about. (For example being able to pick out the dreams and visit them). I can't remember if Perrin has ever done this, I'm pretty sure he hasn't.

 

Perrin on the other hand started getting used to it from book one, he knew the basics pretty early on in the series. Then when he had to learn more complex things, it was because Slayer was hunting and he had to hurry up and do his training. He also used nightmares to train fast, Egwene didn't.

 

+ 1 to the bolded bit. Egwene had WO that know quite a bit about TAR.

 

Perrin had the wolves who pretty much live there constantly.

 

It's not that far fetched, if you gave someone a sword, and said learn how to use it so you don't stab your own foot (e.g. Egwene). It would take a while for the person to learn. If you said, a man is coming tomorrow to kill you (E.g Perrin and Slayer), your sword is your only hope, you'd be 100% focused on learning how to use that sword to defend yourself.

 

About the channelers born with spark. I think your referring to the three ta'vern learning quickly opposed to the other three.

Really, Mat was a bit of shortcut.

Rand had LTT in his head, who was 400 years old, so his had plenty of practice.

Perrin took most of the series to become leader.

 

Other AM don't have it easy with their training 24/7.

[David Selig]

 

I don't appreciate you attacking me by saying I'm whining. I'm pointing out a lot of the truths in this story. RJ has created a complex, interesting world, and that's why I read it, but there is definite inequality between the sexes in the story and other troubling things, like Rand being in love with 3 women, and more appalling, them all being ok with sharing him. My point is, the triumvirate have basically had everything handed to them. People follow Rand because of the prophecies. mat became a military genius overnight. Perrin actually is the least annoying in this respect as his rise to leadership, saving the Two Rivers, seems more natural. However he also just magically connects with wolves, and he doesn't really have to work at it. There's no honing of his skills, until this last book with learning TAR. Egwene, nynave, elayne, they were all born with the spark, but they've had to develop their skills.

Some good points here, but I disagree on most things. The girls rise to the top has been almost as unlikely and filled with shortcuts as the boys, so you can say things were handed to them too. First of all all three of them were really lucky to be born extremely strong channellers, and with some really rare talents each to boot. Then Egwene got handed the most prestigious and powerful position in Randland at age 18, against all tradition and custom. Sure, she had a lot of work to do from there to unite the Tower and establish her power, but it was all based on something which was given to her in a very unlikely way. Elayne of course as a heir to a throne had a relatively easy way to power, even though she had to deal with a succession war.

It's quite convenient for them that the Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on the strength in the power, so they were instantly on top of it once they got the shawl and asserted themselves. The development of skills happened really fast for them too - Nynaeve had superhealing skills from the start and discovered balefire instinctively back in TDR, Elayne developed the ter'angreal ability in like a month, Egwene's Dreamer ability came almost fully developed and as Dreamwalker she needed only a few months before she became really good.

 

Perrin spent a lot of time in the wolf dream in the early books, BTW, so it's not just in ToM where he was trained in that. And I don't think one single incident is enough to say that Perrin is better in TAR than Egwene (IIRC Sanderson said they are on the same level overall, but their skills have different strengths and weaknesses) , it's just that Egwene underestimated him.

 

And yes, the boys didn't have to bow down to their teachers, but then again the girls didn't have to deal with things like the taint madness, losing a hand or an eye or their whole family. I'd take a few months of curtsying to Aes Sedai, as much as their arrogant ways annoy me, any day over those things.

[Dakota]

Someone mentioned in an earlier post, that Egwyne's problem is that she defines herself by her position. She's an Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin Seat, as opposed to a person who is an Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin Seat. While this attitude is what helped her defeat Mesaana, it also leads to the personality (or lack of personality) that so many people find so aggrivating.

 

But let me direct this back towards the original question at the start of this thread. How to fix her?

 

At the FoM, before all the rulers of the world and a bunch of other Aes Sedai, Rand needs to point out to her that the current day Aes Sedai are simply a twisted, distorted version of what true Aes Sedai were back in his time, that all the methods of how they were raised and how they conduct themselves so contrast themselves from the original intents of the group. Think about how modern day Aiel are so different from AoL Aiel.

 

Rand hinted at this when he told Cadsuane that he was the only Male Aes Sedai alive who was properly raised but never turned. I see Rand doing something like pointing out to Egwyne that he held the same position that she does (assuming either that the Tamyrlin is either the male equivalent, or the same position where the T got dropped after three thousand years). Probably he'll quote her the words and oaths and promises sworn when taking the position, which would probably be similar to the ceremonies Egwyne had when she was raised, with just enough changes that she can see how three thousand years changed a word here and dropped a word there to make it backwards and far from the original intent.

 

It's been pointed out many times that the modern day Aes Sedai do -not- consider themselves to be 'servants of all'. I think that fixing Egwyne will take Rand giving her some AoL schooling to drive home the point that if she wears that title, she needs to be serving for the good of the people, instead of trying to tie all the channeling women in the world to the White Tower and figuring which heads-of-state she needs to remove from power for not agreeing with her.

[jwlee]

I don't have time to respond to every post, suffice to say, yes, Egwene, Nyn, Elayne, have all been born with certain advantages and skills, like the male trio have been born as taveren but again the difference is, the women have all had to do some washing of the feet, literally in Egwene's case and figuratively, while the men have not. the men have simply rosen to prominence on the gifts they have been given, without having to obey others, like the women have had to do. The women have obeyed Wise Ones and other AS. The men have not had to obey anyone. Big, big difference.

 

I don't need Egwene to be fixed since I like her. I hate Rand but I also don't need him to be fixed, I just won't like him. the one thing I really hate is the big mess that's been made of Gawyn. That sucked.

 

As for some readers hating Egwene and Elayne and liking other female characters, maybe it's partly due to the fact that Egwene and Elayne are leaders of their respective domains while the other female characters, Nyn, Moiraine, Aviendha, Birgitte, etc, are not. Egwene and Elayne, as leaders now, can't be bowing down to anyone. Tuon is a leader as well, but to me she's an abomination, because she subjugates other women.

[capuga]

I don't have time to respond to every post, suffice to say, yes, Egwene, Nyn, Elayne, have all been born with certain advantages and skills, like the male trio have been born as taveren but again the difference is, the women have all had to do some washing of the feet, literally in Egwene's case and figuratively, while the men have not. the men have simply rosen to prominence on the gifts they have been given, without having to obey others, like the women have had to do. The women have obeyed Wise Ones and other AS. The men have not had to obey anyone. Big, big difference.

 

I don't need Egwene to be fixed since I like her. I hate Rand but I also don't need him to be fixed, I just won't like him. the one thing I really hate is the big mess that's been made of Gawyn. That sucked.

 

As for some readers hating Egwene and Elayne and liking other female characters, maybe it's partly due to the fact that Egwene and Elayne are leaders of their respective domains while the other female characters, Nyn, Moiraine, Aviendha, Birgitte, etc, are not. Egwene and Elayne, as leaders now, can't be bowing down to anyone. Tuon is a leader as well, but to me she's an abomination, because she subjugates other women.

 

I'm not sure why the girls having teachers is some kind of disadvantage to them. They voluntarily joined the organizations that you have mentioned. Thus willingly submitting themselves to the rules of those organizations and requiring them to obey their teachers. From this they looked to gain the skills they desired in a structured curriculum in a relatively safe environment.

 

You don't think Rand would have liked that. He had to go out and capture a frickin Forsaken to be taught enough control over the Power to keep it from killing him. And then his teacher is pretty limited because of Lanfear's shield.

 

I can see the argument that Mat doesn't deserve his position because he had it handed to him. But he is such a likable character and his chapters are so fun to read that most people don't hold that against him. A lot of people don't give that same benefit of the doubt to Egwene because she's often a fairly unlikable person and Elayne because her chapters are often boring. Perrin hasn't really had anything handed to him that he hasn't earned with his own actions. And your most disliked character Rand - he doesn't have any innate skills or powers that your Supergirls weren't also born with. And he has earned all his positions through his own actions. The fact that he didn't have the advantage of teachers actually makes his accomplishments more impressive than the girls. Not to mention that he has faced far more trials, suffered more, had more pressure, more responsibility, more danger, and more almost anything else you can mention then any of the girls.

[AvroChris]

Egwene's character is progressing as it was meant to so I don't see that she needs 'fixing'. She's been set up for a fall for a long time anyways.

[haloun]

@jwl I am not entirely following your logic, you are saying that being hung, the threat of going mad on two different levels, having countless death threats against you and that is just a few is harder than a group of women calling you across hundreds of miles of dessert and naming you the head of their organization at age 18 when they themselves are at least a hundred years older than you? the men have had their trials as well, none of them were BORN into the throneS they now hold, as Elayne was. Perrin rescued his village from two different enemies at the same time, after losing is entire family. Mat became a great general, after going through the rings, being hung, and then killing couladin the enemy leader. Rand was born the dragon (reborn) but he has to deal with a voice inside his head at all times, a voice that tries to control the magic. he also has couuntless advisors who are questioning every move he makes. as for the TAR stuff, Perrin was trained to use it in survival mode. egwene was trained in the kiddie so to speak. if you take two kids to teach them how to swim, and the one you put in lessons that take four years before they are in the deep end, and the other you take out in a rowboat into the ocean and throw him overboard, which will learn to swim faster? which one will be more instinctive? same principal. as it was stated earlier. Oh SH** massive magical instant death flying at me TURN IT INTO A TEDDY BEAR!!!! Perrin runs off of instinct. all the men do and because of it they are better at it. as opposed to the wonder girls who had institutions created just so they could learn. could they have learned differently, yeah they could have. but they were handicapped in their learning by the schools and societies they joined that taught them what they had to learn. men didnt have anything like that. men arent natural dreamers in the aiel, men who channel are killed instantly, and battle leadership, never has been something learned, none of the great generals were great because of the academy they went to. they wouldnt be great if that was the case. one of the themes of this series is instinct over books, or training. in the swimming, which person would be better? neither you spend five years in a school, learning something that it is possible to learn by instinct, and you will be better at technique, you spend 5 minutes learning by instinct, and your technique is rough, but you can still do it. you might even be able to do things that others couldnt (nynaeves healing), there isnt one is better than the other, there is only which path do you take? so no the men dont have it easier, they hav e it faster, but nothings been handed to them on a platter.

[randsc]

Hanged, man, the word is hanged.

 

Mat was hanged. If he is also hung, there has been no indication of that in the text. Thank God.

[jwlee]

Consciously or subconsciously, the world and story RJ created is a world where the men rule and don't have to bow down to others, while the women have to bow down and are humbled constantly. It may be that part of the hate for Egwene and Elayne has to do with the fact that they now no longer bow down, they are superior to others in terms of them being leaders, and that isn't arrogance, that's just the role they are in now. Cadsuane is also a leader of sorts.

RJ could have written a story where Perrin, having his wolf sense, is taught by Elyas to develop his wolf skills, and for Perrin to learn, he has to fetch and obey elyas and has to jump when Elyas says jump, just as Egwene had to do with the Wise Ones, but Perrin never had to go through something like that. Mat could have been shown to have an innate talent for military planning but had to learn to develop his skills as a soldier and had to work under someone like Bashere or Bryne and also jump when they said jump and do a million push ups, but instead the male trio magically work on instinct and the gifts they have been handed, rather than working on their skills.

It reminds me of a study that was recently published. Basically, the gist of it was that there's this gap in philosophy between the east and west. In the west, there's an emphasis on innate talent or smarts, where people don't want to show how hard they work, but would rather be known to simply be smart, without the effort, while in the east, hard work is emphasized. It isn't about how smart you are, how smart you were born, but rather how hard you work and apply yourself.

[Sleeper]

Consciously or subconsciously, the world and story RJ created is a world where the men rule and don't have to bow down to others, while the women have to bow down and are humbled constantly. It may be that part of the hate for Egwene and Elayne has to do with the fact that they now no longer bow down, they are superior to others in terms of them being leaders, and that isn't arrogance, that's just the role they are in now. Cadsuane is also a leader of sorts.

RJ could have written a story where Perrin, having his wolf sense, is taught by Elyas to develop his wolf skills, and for Perrin to learn, he has to fetch and obey elyas and has to jump when Elyas says jump, just as Egwene had to do with the Wise Ones, but Perrin never had to go through something like that. Mat could have been shown to have an innate talent for military planning but had to learn to develop his skills as a soldier and had to work under someone like Bashere or Bryne and also jump when they said jump and do a million push ups, but instead the male trio magically work on instinct and the gifts they have been handed, rather than working on their skills.

It reminds me of a study that was recently published. Basically, the gist of it was that there's this gap in philosophy between the east and west. In the west, there's an emphasis on innate talent or smarts, where people don't want to show how hard they work, but would rather be known to simply be smart, without the effort, while in the east, hard work is emphasized. It isn't about how smart you are, how smart you were born, but rather how hard you work and apply yourself.

I just think that it's a really strange thing you're focusing on, whether people obeyed other people.

 

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how someone got somewhere, just where they got, and if you look at it in that sense you'll see no overt sexism. Elayne's queen of Andor, the most powerful nation in Randland. Egwene's the Amyrlin. OK Perrin leads an army and Mat leads an army, but I'd venture to say that being the Amrylin is actually a greater position than either of those.

 

I just don't understand why you're focusing so much on whether the characters obeyed other characters. It just seems like a really strange thing to look at and, IMO, doesn't really convey a message of sexism.

[Phoenix8514]

Consciously or subconsciously, the world and story RJ created is a world where the men rule and don't have to bow down to others, while the women have to bow down and are humbled constantly. It may be that part of the hate for Egwene and Elayne has to do with the fact that they now no longer bow down, they are superior to others in terms of them being leaders, and that isn't arrogance, that's just the role they are in now. Cadsuane is also a leader of sorts.

RJ could have written a story where Perrin, having his wolf sense, is taught by Elyas to develop his wolf skills, and for Perrin to learn, he has to fetch and obey elyas and has to jump when Elyas says jump, just as Egwene had to do with the Wise Ones, but Perrin never had to go through something like that. Mat could have been shown to have an innate talent for military planning but had to learn to develop his skills as a soldier and had to work under someone like Bashere or Bryne and also jump when they said jump and do a million push ups, but instead the male trio magically work on instinct and the gifts they have been handed, rather than working on their skills.

It reminds me of a study that was recently published. Basically, the gist of it was that there's this gap in philosophy between the east and west. In the west, there's an emphasis on innate talent or smarts, where people don't want to show how hard they work, but would rather be known to simply be smart, without the effort, while in the east, hard work is emphasized. It isn't about how smart you are, how smart you were born, but rather how hard you work and apply yourself.

 

I do believe there is discrimination in the WOT world, but I found have it to be mostly women against men, but that doesn't surprise me given the history of the world. Men may rule in name is many places, but what about in practice? You have the Aes Sedai pulling the strings behind the nations and admitting they do it. You have villages in the Two Rivers, where the Women's Circles think their Village Councils have no idea what they are doing. You have numerous examples of women thinking men are incompetent. Is there a lot hatred for female characters? Of course. Personally, I like most of the female characters. I would hate to read a series with women that did not have backbones. Having a backbone is different from being a bully. My least two favorite characters, Cadsuane and Egwene, are just that. Cadsuane improved in Towers of Midnight and I honestly liked Egwene in The Gathering Storm. She took a step backwards in this past book. Her dealings with Rand and her treatment of Gawyn were too much for me. I used to hate Gawyn, but now I feel for him.

[haloun]

I am sorry that the men in randland are portrayed as more sensible, and less egotistical, the fact that elyas didnt make perrin jump through rings is why perrin is so good at what he does. also i am not sure you know the true difference between western and eastern cultures, because you got them totally mixed up. being immersed as i am in the oriental culture, i should know. the eastern cultures actually put a GREATER emphasis on instinct. thus the buddhist, taoist, and hindu monks who meditate for hours on end to find the answer without ever opening a book. doesnt matter the question. the west also takes a great store by instinct. both have come up with universities and institutions to teach what comes naturally to most people and it handicaps people. a third people who set store by instinct is the native americans, instinct and bravery, are what really counts. as for women bowing and scraping show me one instance in the series where a woman is degraded and pushed around by a man and he gets away with it, siuan polishing brynes boots does not count since her punishment to be a practical slave for bryne was put on her by her own society made up entirely of women. you actually see women using force over men more than the other way around. the world was built upon the idea of a vatican city where the pope is female, in a world where the vatican city is the main power still, you know back when kings and queens had to be crowned by the pope. that is how powerful the amyrlin seat is portrayed, even her most hated enemy will come and sit with her when summoned, he will be plotting on how to kill her when they are through the entire time, but he will still come like a beat dog. the seat is so powerful that the woman holding it can kidnap monarchs and hold them against their will with no fear of retribution, or retaliation. that is not a world where women are weak.

 

@randsc the past tense of the verb to hang is hung, hanged is just bad grammer. he didnt get drunk, or screw multiple women to get his memories, he suffered death by hanging, thus he was hung until he was dead. then rand used cpr and brought him back.

[anotherfingolfin]

@ jwl, what is your point, exactly? are you implying the text is inherently sexist?

The main male characters are extremely talented. They seem to have blossomed with relatively little formal training. The main female characters too are unnaturally talented. They too have had relatively little (in the grand scheme of things) formal training, albeit more than the men. The females have entered, willingly, under tutelage of (female) groups, and have been subservient to their teachers, as per the norms of those groups. Yet, they learned quickly, and are recognised as awesome, by those teachers. The male characters did not have the luxury of formal instruction, and have been through a lot of tribulations in getting where they are.

So what irks you so, soo much? That the female characters had more formal training? And that during the course of that training, they had to bow to teachers? Well if so, then I think you are nit-picking, but that's just me.

What you would be wrong, just plain wrong, in implying, would be that on the whole, male characters have had an easier time in the series, all things considered. Or that the females haveing more formal training, makes the books sexist in any way. Particularly in light of every other aspect of Randland.

 

Tuon is a leader as well, but to me she's an abomination, because she subjugates other women.

don't you mean, because she (her culture) subjugates other human beings? or is it because many of them are women?

 

@randsc the past tense of the verb to hang is hung, hanged is just bad grammer. he didnt get drunk, or screw multiple women to get his memories, he suffered death by hanging, thus he was hung until he was dead. then rand used cpr and brought him back.

well, hung is better in most cases, but in the case of death by hanging, hanged is more common. (dare i say, especially in modern american usage?)

[Brammeri]

Consciously or subconsciously, the world and story RJ created is a world where the men rule and don't have to bow down to others, while the women have to bow down and are humbled constantly. It may be that part of the hate for Egwene and Elayne has to do with the fact that they now no longer bow down, they are superior to others in terms of them being leaders, and that isn't arrogance, that's just the role they are in now. Cadsuane is also a leader of sorts.

RJ could have written a story where Perrin, having his wolf sense, is taught by Elyas to develop his wolf skills, and for Perrin to learn, he has to fetch and obey elyas and has to jump when Elyas says jump, just as Egwene had to do with the Wise Ones, but Perrin never had to go through something like that. Mat could have been shown to have an innate talent for military planning but had to learn to develop his skills as a soldier and had to work under someone like Bashere or Bryne and also jump when they said jump and do a million push ups, but instead the male trio magically work on instinct and the gifts they have been handed, rather than working on their skills.

It reminds me of a study that was recently published. Basically, the gist of it was that there's this gap in philosophy between the east and west. In the west, there's an emphasis on innate talent or smarts, where people don't want to show how hard they work, but would rather be known to simply be smart, without the effort, while in the east, hard work is emphasized. It isn't about how smart you are, how smart you were born, but rather how hard you work and apply yourself.

 

IMO when RJ started writing WoT he wanted to create a series of nations that had both matriarchal and patriarchal systems.

I think he wanted the series to be very "up-to-date" in that sense. To show the world of WoT as being different from Earth's immediate past (and most of it's present) where most societies and nations are profoundly patriarchal.

 

What I do not understand is why Egwene gets so much dislike when she is doing what she sees as best. She believes that Rand needs to be guided by the White Tower. Remember, she's not had massive contact with Rand for many months. She only has the perspective of Nynaeve and other AS to lead her judgement. And Nynaeve still often thinks of Rand as being the same boy as he always was from the Two Rivers.

 

People want her brought down a peg or two? Why? Because (and this is where I get loads of mild abuse) she is female and wants (in their opinion) to make Rand do as he's told...

 

There are a lot of double-standards on this site.

[Mr Ares]

I see Rand doing something like pointing out to Egwyne that he held the same position that she does (assuming either that the Tamyrlin is either the male equivalent, or the same position where the T got dropped after three thousand years).

I don't see that, because the Tamyrlin was not a position that ever existed. Tamyrlin was a person, and LTT wore a ring that was supposedly his.

Probably he'll quote her the words and oaths and promises sworn when taking the position, which would probably be similar to the ceremonies Egwyne had when she was raised, with just enough changes that she can see how three thousand years changed a word here and dropped a word there to make it backwards and far from the original intent.

I doubt that as well. Seems to me that the rituals the WT created would have been made from scratch following the Breaking and the creation of new AS. Hence all the stuff about proving they are women. Furthermore, I don't see going back to the AoL was of doing things as a solution to anything. The culture the Hall of Servants existed in is gone. They do need to change, but they need to adapt themselves to a new world, not mimic a long dead organisation that doesn't really have anything to do with them save a shared name.

 

the male trio have been born as taveren

I have to point out that this is wrong, the men were made ta'veren a few weeks before Moiraine arrived - no-one is born ta'veren.

but again the difference is, the women have all had to do some washing of the feet, literally in Egwene's case and figuratively, while the men have not.

As to your main point, it seems to me that the women had to bow and obey and so on, but in return they received formal schooling in a much safer environment. Mat got knowledge, but the price was a noose around his neck. Rand went insane. Perrin's entire family was wiped out. They have all faced hardships, but they have faced different hardships, and I hardly think being forced to scrub a few floors is worse than nearly dying or going mad. Although admittedly, I would prefer the Mat path - near death and loss of an eye is much easier than being forced to obey a lot of silly rules. But I've never been good with obeying rules other people make up. The men and women have paid different prices to get where they are. They have all benefited it some ways from their birth, and gifts that they didn't really have to work for.

 

@randsc the past tense of the verb to hang is hung, hanged is just bad grammer. he didnt get drunk, or screw multiple women to get his memories, he suffered death by hanging, thus he was hung until he was dead. then rand used cpr and brought him back.

Death by hanging is hanged, not hung. Hence a judge would sentence one to be "hanged by the neck until dead." Meat is hung, people are hanged. But enough of quibbling about grammar - Mat was only hung/hanged/dangling from a tree long enough to be nearly dead.

[Brammeri]

@randsc the past tense of the verb to hang is hung, hanged is just bad grammer. he didnt get drunk, or screw multiple women to get his memories, he suffered death by hanging, thus he was hung until he was dead. then rand used cpr and brought him back.

 

 

First off, the word is GRAMMAR not grammer.

 

Second,

 

e.g. In the morning he will be hanged until dead. (correct)

In the morning he will be hung until dead. (incorrect)

 

The man was hanged. (correct, so long as the intention is to kill him).

The past tense of hang is hung, but when the intention is to kill by hanging we use the verb HANGED.

 

 

So, Matt was hanged. The intention was to kill him. If the intetnion was not to kill him (debatable) then he was hung.

 

e.g. Hung, drawn and quartered - the intention of the hanging is not to kill.

The murderer was hanged - the intention of the capital punishment is to kill.

[David Selig]

Consciously or subconsciously, the world and story RJ created is a world where the men rule and don't have to bow down to others, while the women have to bow down and are humbled constantly.

This applies only the the 6 main PoV characters, which are isolated cases. In Randland as a whole, the women have the same power, often more, than the men.

 

RJ could have written a story where Perrin, having his wolf sense, is taught by Elyas to develop his wolf skills, and for Perrin to learn, he has to fetch and obey elyas and has to jump when Elyas says jump, just as Egwene had to do with the Wise Ones, but Perrin never had to go through something like that.

Isn't that pretty much what Hopper did with Perrin? He did what Hopper told him. Sure, he didn't bow, but I guess that's not a custom of the wolves. ;)

 

Mat could have been shown to have an innate talent for military planning but had to learn to develop his skills as a soldier and had to work under someone like Bashere or Bryne and also jump when they said jump and do a million push ups, but instead the male trio magically work on instinct and the gifts they have been handed, rather than working on their skills.

There was really no time for Mat to learn strategy in a non-magical way in the timeframe of the story.

 

I also disagree that the male trio are only magically working on instinct. Sure, at first Rand did that with channelling, but he had no choice. When Rand finally got a teacher on channelling, he learned from him. He's been training with the sword with Lan and others, he was taught unarmed combat by Rhuarc, Daes Dai'Mar by Moiraine, etc. Sure, he learned all that supernaturally fast, but the same applies to the Supergirls. After several months of training they are better than all other Ase Sedai, who've been taught 6 years minimum and then has had decades or centuries being full Aes Sedai. Egwene apparently learned everything about political manipulation almost overnight. Nynaeve can repeat every weave she has seen only once. They discovered hugely complicated weaves like balefire or Travelling just like that. Elayne in a month discovered more about ter'angreal than the Tower in 3000 years. It's the way things work in WoT. Experience and teaching doesn't matter much, it's the talent which really counts. I don't like it much, but it applies both to the male and to the female main characters.

 

Mat got the memories, but then worked a lot on organising the Band and making sure it can put into practice his military ideas.

[yoshinobu]

How to fix Egweve ... hmmm. Some people have said embarrassment, but as my man androl said, embarrassment is a small price to pay. Some said an epiphiny, like Mr. Al'thor, but while that was awesome when he did it, if she does it then you know shes just copying his answers. A few have said learning from her past mistakes, but she doesnt make mistakes, other people do, like Elaida. A couple said death, now that, that might work.

[Odin]

I think Egwene isnt liked because of here not listening to Rand.

 

When Rand said that he would break the final seals, Egwene goes into

oposition, and starts to work against him instead of producing a plan,

reminding us all what those flaming female Aes Sedai did the last time

the Dragon rode out to lock the dark one out from the pattern.

 

But as the wheel turns. The betrayal of the Aes Sedai might happen again.

Repeating the errors of AOL.

[Suttree]

I think Egwene isnt liked because of here not listening to Rand.

 

When Rand said that he would break the final seals, Egwene goes into

oposition, and starts to work against him instead of producing a plan,

reminding us all what those flaming female Aes Sedai did the last time

the Dragon rode out to lock the dark one out from the pattern.

 

Save the world? If they had accompanied LTT Saidar would have been tainted as well.

[randsc]

We don't know that from the books.

 

Word of God, really, means what is on the published page.

 

If it is in the book, you should believe it.

 

If it isn't in the book, but the author said it while trying to sell his book, you should take it under advisement.

 

If it is in the book AND the author said it, you should really believe it.

 

Authors say stuff, all the time, at signings, panels and other promotional events, that they have either tailored to their immediate audience or made up on the spot because they hadn't really considered it before then.

[Suttree]

Authors say stuff, all the time, at signings, panels and other promotional events, that they have either tailored to their immediate audience or made up on the spot because they hadn't really considered it before then.

 

Do you really believe in regards to sealing the bore, a part of the story in which there was a companion piece written(SaSG) that RJ hadn't really considered it before? Or was their something about a Q&A in Budapest that compelled RJ to tailor a HUGE part of his world to the immediate audience? No he was not the type of man to do either and on this he was very clear.

 

Budapest Q&A

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted

[Jon Paul]

We're dealing with a 450-year-old demi-god from an age of impossibilities who was the most renowned man of his time. Who, in his current incarnation (LTT-Rand) has saved existence its self countless times. I think it's safe to say he has a plan beyond simply breaking the seals. His plan is no doubt incomplete. But remember.. he created the Seal in the first place. He knows the actual mechanics of what went wrong and where it went wrong the first time. So depending on how the Prison is to be sealed he's either 80% along or he'll have to scrap everything because the One Power (and/or True if you subscribe to those foolish theories) wont be used.

 

Honestly, I can understand why in-story Egwene or King Darlin might be a little "WTF?" in regards to Rand due to not having a bird's eye view into the inner works of his mind. But I don't understand why readers can be like this also. Why can we not trust in Rand?