How To Fix Egwene

[FarShainMael]

Why does Egwene think being influenced by Taaven is a bad thing? I mean, the will of the pattern is good right?

 

Because that's what Aran'gar / Halima made her think. Seemples!

[Muad Cheade]

Why does Egwene think being influenced by Taaven is a bad thing? I mean, the will of the pattern is good right?

 

Because that's what Aran'gar / Halima made her think. Seemples!

How do we know Aran'gar was Compelling Egwene? She could just have interfered with her Dreaming.

[FarShainMael]

Why does Egwene think being influenced by Taaven is a bad thing? I mean, the will of the pattern is good right?

 

Because that's what Aran'gar / Halima made her think. Seemples!

How do we know Aran'gar was Compelling Egwene? She could just have interfered with her Dreaming.

 

Do you really think she would have passed up that sort of opportunity? In any case, there's the complaint in ToM that she 'lost control' of Egwene.

[Durinax]

plus I think headaches are an effect of egwene trying to fight the compulsion

[Muad Cheade]

Why does Egwene think being influenced by Taaven is a bad thing? I mean, the will of the pattern is good right?

 

Because that's what Aran'gar / Halima made her think. Seemples!

How do we know Aran'gar was Compelling Egwene? She could just have interfered with her Dreaming.

 

Do you really think she would have passed up that sort of opportunity? In any case, there's the complaint in ToM that she 'lost control' of Egwene.

Asmodean (and Lanfear) had many opportunities to Compel Rand and Mat yet they also passed on it. The complaint could be a reference of her continuing the split and keeping the Aes Sedai against each other instead of against the Shadow and helping Rand.

 

plus I think headaches are an effect of egwene trying to fight the compulsion

I believe they are Arang'ar keeping her from Dreaming. Note that when Halima is burying one of Egwene's maid's body she is "thinking idly of tonight's dreams." Also, when Egwene recovers from a headache without the help of Halima she has three Dreams instantly.

[Frostmuse]

There's a few things I've learned about fandoms throughout the years, and the most important is this: The absolute majority of any given fandom does not hang out on the internet. The viewpoints of a few people on the internet does not in any way shape or form represent the viewpoints of the fandom as a whole. And as a more general rule that's true about more things is that the people that are unhappy find a place to complain, where people who agree join them. People who don't have a problem? They don't say anything, and often don't even realise that other people have a problem in the first place.

 

Claiming most people hate Egwene? Probably wrong.

 

And aside from that, I'm still rather disturbed by how many people can't separate their own thoughts of a character's personality from their liking of the character as a character. There's a reason why villains can be just as popular as the heroes, and thinking they're evil bastards doesn't change the fact that they can be interesting evil bastards.

[haloun]

i am almost neutral on her character as a whole. however the individual parts are what are important. her efforts with the white tower, i agree with. her attitude towards others i dont. she has gathered so much power recently that she has become insufferable from her own POV's, if we learned about her actions any other way, we wouldnt hate her so much. her unifying the female chanelers is a GOOD thing, who cares about the white towers power base? that might be her purpose in part, but in part she also is trying to destroy the weaknesses that are in the white tower, she is trying to take a few base elements and refine them into an alloy. why has the white tower been so unsuccesful? because they refuse to acknowlage anyone elses knowledge, she states in her POV's multiple times, and when she is trying to unify everyone, that the white tower is not perfect, think of how much the tower will benefit from the exchange program in humility. can you see romanda and lelaine being hung up by their toes in the rigging and what that would do? or running around a wise ones camp naked? for all the men to see? they would be greatly changed after six months with each group. and the lessons of TAR would also be invaluable. now as far as her attitude, she needs people she trusts, and people she knows are trying to do the right thing to advise her. Gawyn and Nyn, are going to be invaluable to her. Gawyn because he can tell exactly what she is feeling, and nyn, because she can remind her of when she was an apprentice to the wisdom (AKA nyn herself). i dont think fixing her will be all that difficult, part of this is halima's "therapy" will be fixed by nyn, and part of it is going to involve gawyn stepping up and saying woah now eggy, you just tried to balefire bela because she chose rands side in this. and when she compulses him to agree with her through the bond the sisters who were scolded for doing just that earlier are going to bring it up to her. she will then be forced to review herself, and realize she is flawed, then she will fix it. it wont be that hard, but similar to rand she will be more hated before coming to her epiphany.

[randsc]

And aside from that, I'm still rather disturbed by how many people can't separate their own thoughts of a character's personality from their liking of the character as a character. There's a reason why villains can be just as popular as the heroes, and thinking they're evil bastards doesn't change the fact that they can be interesting evil bastards.

 

I think that has been addressed.

 

I like a number of the baddies. Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael. The original Fain. I don't just like the "good guys."

 

But the WAYS in which Egwene is flawed (overwheening arrogance, misandry, and, especially, complete lack of introspection) aren't INTERESTING. They're just annoying. Lanfear is more evil, obviously, but her motivations are more complex. Graendel is more evil, but more introspective (I wouldn't say introspection is a hallmark of the character, but she is more reflective than Egwene.) Sammael's back story is interesting.

 

Egwene is either intended to be seen as admirable, in which case we have an incredible level of Mary Sue-ness at work that is overwhelming that intent, or she is being set up for growth of the sort we have from the other characters, in which case we're SUPPOSED to react this way to her character. Or, and I still think this is possible, she is under some lingering compulsion and/or her actions will be revealed to be the result of ta'veren influence and therefore necessary.

 

As for the feminist "cliche", severl posters have outright admitted that they give Egwene a bit of a pass on her more obnxoious behavior because she is a "strong woman" with whom they identify. And for the rest, I mostly toss out overly simplistic explanations for Egwene's behavior as a counter to the mindless, "you only dislike Egwene because you're a slobberring Rand fanboy" meme. I not sure a single one of the children in question has seen the irony yet.

[Hopefire]

And aside from that, I'm still rather disturbed by how many people can't separate their own thoughts of a character's personality from their liking of the character as a character. There's a reason why villains can be just as popular as the heroes, and thinking they're evil bastards doesn't change the fact that they can be interesting evil bastards.

 

Personally speaking, I love Egwene as a character. As a person, I find her somewhat detestable. But as a character? Sign me up for more. In contrast, I like Perrin as a person, but as a character spent too much of the series being about as interesting as dishwater - aside from The Dragon Reborn, The Shadow Rising and Towers of Midnight, I can't honestly say I've enjoyed Perrin chapters. And that's despite thinking that alongside Min, he's the nicest and most decent of the main characters.

[Majsju]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

 

She is a woman, with the audacity to stand up against a man. Come on, can't you see how wrong that is? she should be at home, making dinner and cleaning the house for her man, with the occasional break for giving birth, the only things women are good for. sheesh, haven't you learned anyhing?

[moratcorlm]

And aside from that, I'm still rather disturbed by how many people can't separate their own thoughts of a character's personality from their liking of the character as a character. There's a reason why villains can be just as popular as the heroes, and thinking they're evil bastards doesn't change the fact that they can be interesting evil bastards.

That Egwene matches most of the Mary Sue checklist makes her a less interesting character. That she develops very little after the second book makes her a less interesting character. This is entirely separate from whatever unlikable character traits she may have, but, speaking as fans rather than as literary critics, both aspects can and should be mentioned in both condemnations and plaudits. That she is flat and unchanging does, however, bring her personality to the fore. There are two-dimensional characters in fiction who are much loved (look at Nynaeve in this very series!), but most of them are not.

[Hopefire]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

 

She is a woman, with the audacity to stand up against a man. Come on, can't you see how wrong that is? she should be at home, making dinner and cleaning the house for her man, with the occasional break for giving birth, the only things women are good for. sheesh, haven't you learned anyhing?

It's true, I dislike Egwene as a person due to the fact that she's a women who disagrees with Rand and who has the nerve to suggest she has a role other than being barefoot in the kitchen. That's totally it.

 

However, I have no idea whatsoever why I like Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Cadsuane, Sorilea, Faile, Siuan, Verin, Tuon, Amys, Birgitte, Bain and Chiad, Selucia, Setalle Anan, Berelain, Pevara, Leane and Corele. I mean, most of them are doing things other than staying at home. Some of them are leading nations, some of them have been downright rude to Rand and other men, and most of them aren't even pregnant! It makes no sense whatsoever why I like those characters as people but not Egwene, given that all share Egwene's faults to a greater or lesser degree.

 

Can you please help me? Explain to me why I hate Egwene for not being in the kitchen, but that I don't hold it against people like Tuon or Cadsuane? IT MAKES NO SENSE!

[tollstrm]

 

So how can Sanderson fix Egwene?

 

 

Two words: kill her. Too drastic?

[Elan Tedronai]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

 

She is a woman, with the audacity to stand up against a man. Come on, can't you see how wrong that is? she should be at home, making dinner and cleaning the house for her man, with the occasional break for giving birth, the only things women are good for. sheesh, haven't you learned anyhing?

 

 

this is a post that i found in ToR website.

 

 

posted by NiccMac

Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side. It doesn't matter that, just a few hours before his meeting with Egwene, he nearly destroyed the pattern. Besides, as the Dragon, it was His prerogative to do so. Rand's arrogance, his manipulation of friends and allies, his mistakes and crimes...well, He is excused of these things because He is the Dragon Reborn. If he's leading humanity off a cliff with his half-baked plan to break the seals, everyone else should just get in line and follow. And in any case...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And if he assures Egwene and the Hall that he's better now that he's taken the time to ponder an elementary philosophical question, they should just take him at his word.

 

Come to think of it, a messianic leader who subverted long-standing institutions in his rise to power, whose conquests, atrocities, and demands for obedience were all justified on account of him being the Chosen One, and who had to take "firm measures" to deal with a haughty and overprivileged class of traitors that opposed him at every turn....It seems like I've heard that story before......

 

 

you know what? if the lord dragon had a plan on what to do after breaking the seals, then i would understand the logic of the al thor army here. But the master has no plan and instead relying on Min. Yeah, break the seals and figure out the rest afterwards.

[Grandis]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

 

She is a woman, with the audacity to stand up against a man. Come on, can't you see how wrong that is? she should be at home, making dinner and cleaning the house for her man, with the occasional break for giving birth, the only things women are good for. sheesh, haven't you learned anyhing?

 

 

this is a post that i found in ToR website.

 

 

posted by NiccMac

Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side. It doesn't matter that, just a few hours before his meeting with Egwene, he nearly destroyed the pattern. Besides, as the Dragon, it was His prerogative to do so. Rand's arrogance, his manipulation of friends and allies, his mistakes and crimes...well, He is excused of these things because He is the Dragon Reborn. If he's leading humanity off a cliff with his half-baked plan to break the seals, everyone else should just get in line and follow. And in any case...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And if he assures Egwene and the Hall that he's better now that he's taken the time to ponder an elementary philosophical question, they should just take him at his word.

 

Come to think of it, a messianic leader who subverted long-standing institutions in his rise to power, whose conquests, atrocities, and demands for obedience were all justified on account of him being the Chosen One, and who had to take "firm measures" to deal with a haughty and overprivileged class of traitors that opposed him at every turn....It seems like I've heard that story before......

 

 

you know what? if the lord dragon had a plan on what to do after breaking the seals, then i would understand the logic of the al thor army here. But the master has no plan and instead relying on Min. Yeah, break the seals and figure out the rest afterwards.

 

You really are incapable of recognising that people are capable of disliking Egwene independent of her actions towards Rand. Also, plenty of Egwene detractors thought Rand needed fixing, and, lo and behold, it happened! The fact that your main defense of Egwene is to point out Dark Rand's actions is quite telling.

 

As for relying on Min, Rand has become Genre Savvy with regards to what being ta'veren means; since Herid Fel had apparently figured out how to seal the dark ones prison, and Min has taken up his studies and stated that she intends to figure out HFs plan, and the fact that Rand has said that he relies on her to do this, the laws of narrative causality means she will succeed. And Rand knows this. I realise that this belongs in the Discworld universe, but you can always look it up at TvTropes. However, I won't take responsibility if you lose a day or two there.

[Mr Ares]

Some of Egwene's character deficiencies are no doubt plot driven and intentional (like the irrationality in her opposition to Rand's plans in TofM).

Egwene opposing Rand's "plan" is very rational. Rand basically shows up and tells her he plans to unleash Shai'tan, and all but admits he doesn't have a bloody clue about how to actually do his job and seal Him up again. Now while she should have done something by way of researching a viable plan (those she set to the task would probably fail, as they don't have all the information, but they should still make the attempt to dredge up what they can) at the moment there are no plans to stop Shai'tan on the table, and I must say anyone who opposes a plan to make things worse has their head screwed on straight.

 

Some people really perplex me.

Only some? Then consider yourself fortunate.

 

 

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

She is a woman, with the audacity to stand up against a man. Come on, can't you see how wrong that is? she should be at home, making dinner and cleaning the house for her man, with the occasional break for giving birth, the only things women are good for. sheesh, haven't you learned anyhing?

Breaks for giving birth? Maj, do you have to bring your overly liberal values into everything?

 

As for how to fix Egwene, I say with a spanner. Just hit her with it enough times, and the problem should go away (although the stain on the carpet probably won't). Other than that, really it would be appreciated if someone in the story called her out on her failings, rather than having so many people act as if she was flawless and wonderful.

[tneva82]

What exactly is her plan? Nothing. She has no plan to replace it. She has no research (that we see) to come up with one. She has no thought out reason as to why the destroying the Seals is wrong other than her unfailing confidence that she knows best.

 

 

If she was working hard to come up with a plan and/or working to make the world better, that would be great. But, in all these cases, she simply is trying to maneuver for more personal power. THAT seems to be the extent of what her will is...make herself more important.

 

What exactly is Rand's plan? Precicely. Nothing.

 

Difference? Egwene wants to have a plan before acting while Rand is going to increase DO's influence in the world with no idea what to do next.

[SuperFade]

What exactly is Rand's plan? Precicely. Nothing.

 

Difference? Egwene wants to have a plan before acting while Rand is going to increase DO's influence in the world with no idea what to do next.

 

Except that she has no plan either. She has both the White and Brown Ajahs at her disposal to come up with an alternative, but chooses to raise armies against Rand instead.

 

As for how to fix Egwene, I'd say the best way would be to have someone call her out on her failings, have some introspection and admit that she can, in fact, be wrong about certain things. Sadly she has many Mary Sue characteristics and was apparently based on RJ's wife, so I have real doubts about whether it will actually happen.

[Muad Cheade]

Except that she has no plan either. She has both the White and Brown Ajahs at her disposal to come up with an alternative, but chooses to raise armies against Rand instead.

Which is why she wants to discuss this at Merrilor. Actually, we don't have any indication that she hasn't had someone research this.

 

Also, she doesn't "choose to raise armies" as the Hall took over preparation for Tarmon Gai'din. The fact that she allows the Hall to do this in exchange for her dealing solely with Rand implies she's planning something or has something in mind.

 

As for how to fix Egwene, I'd say the best way would be to have someone call her out on her failings, have some introspection and admit that she can, in fact, be wrong about certain things. Sadly she has many Mary Sue characteristics and was apparently based on RJ's wife, so I have real doubts about whether it will actually happen.

So does that mean that every character and citizen of our planet needs "fixing" as well, since we've all undoubtedly failed repeatedly? All of the female characters were based on Harriet so what's your point?

[threadnecromancer]

 

So how can Sanderson fix Egwene?

 

 

Two words: kill her. Too drastic?

 

Turn her to the Shadow with the 13/13 trick, that would make her interesting for the first time in 12 books!

[Fel]

Except that she has no plan either. She has both the White and Brown Ajahs at her disposal to come up with an alternative, but chooses to raise armies against Rand instead.

Which is why she wants to discuss this at Merrilor. Actually, we don't have any indication that she hasn't had someone research this.

true, for all we know, she could have an intensive program on this. But, since it was never mentioned either by other characters or in her own internal monologues, it's hard to think so. By that same logic, she could have had someone infiltrate the Seanchan, someone recruiting all the Ayyad of Shara, or someone making jo-cars, sho-wings and other AOL weapons.

 

None of these things are referenced in the story at all, so it's hard to believe that she actually did any of them.

[Tollieman]

All she needs to realise is that she needs to serve the light. Not rule, control or manipulate it.

 

 

 

 

(and no, before the fury burns down on me, I'm not implying or think that Rand is the light!)

[Muad Cheade]

All she needs to realise is that she needs to serve the light. Not rule, control or manipulate it.

 

 

 

 

(and no, before the fury burns down on me, I'm not implying or think that Rand is the light!)

Could you provide an example of this?

[Tollieman]

What I mean is; there is virtually no compromise in her. It's her way. And to get her way, she will manipulate events until it is.

 

If she continues in this fashion, and gains the influence age will bring her, she won't need to rely on manipulation, she'll simply bully people into it (turning into another Suian Sanche). Even though her intentions were good (as are Egwene's), see what happened to the Tower under her watch - did that serve the light.

 

That's what I meant by serving, rather than trying to dominate all the time. Funnily, Rand was similar (more so) until VOG, and see where that was getting him, he certainly wasn't effective, even if he WAS making correct decisions often. I would say he wasn't serving the light either.

[Arc]

There are already numerous threads about Eggy, so didn't know where to post really. Anyway I was just going through LoC again, and there it is mentioned that when Eggy faces her Toh for the concealment of her not being AS, the WO say that she could face her Toh towards Rhuarc later since he wasn't around at the moment. I didn't check yet, but I think Eggy hasn't Seen Rhuarc ever since. SO, Might this happen at the Fields of Merilor? If so, she would be humbled - something a lot of readers are waiting for - , possibly for a large crowd,... She would probably be able to take the pain like in TGS, but it will have impact on her king- and queen- supporters I suppose.

 

anyway, just a thought