How To Fix Egwene

[capuga]

I think it is readers who find a character this arrogant, lacking in self-reflection and hypocritical to be some sort of exemplar are the ones who need to be fixed. I think I see some projection at play, honestly.

 

I note from your other posts that you have a bit of a hang-up regarding people who dislike female characters in this series. I would ask you to consider whether something other than sexism may be at work when a reader dislikes Egwene or Elayne while finding Nynaeve, Aviendha, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Bair, Amys, Tuon, Verin, Faile, Berelain and many other women admirable.

 

Frankly, I can understand people not liking Elayne or any character for that matter. But there seems to be much more hatred for Egween and Elayne to a lesser degree. The other female characters either don't have any where near as much power or have had hardly any page time when compared to the two Es.

 

People flat out seem to hate Egween.

 

Self-reflection is for those who can afford it. Egween can't show any signs of doubt or she will get ripped to sheds by her subordinates. And yes the rest of the AS are subordinates to the Amrylin.

 

I see her as confident, or cock sure, of herself and she simply has to be. Besides arrogance is a desired trait in a war time leader. All great war time leaders, throughout the history of time, could have been accused of being arrogant.

 

Gawyn, the hard head, got much better treatment than he deserved. While he ultimately saved her life, he actions ruined her first trap and put her in serious risk of looking week to the "wolves" (the other AS) nipping at her heals. She should have tossed his fanny out of the WT.

 

I went through the normal shifts of my favorite character like a lot of us did. From Rand, to Perrin, to Mat, and if you would have told me 15 years ago that my favorite character would end up being, what was my least favorite character then, I would have told you you're nuts.

 

Again these are just my opinions and there is a saying about opinions.

 

Difference is mine are right ;) just kidding (sort of)!

 

I think what @randsc was trying to point out is that it gets tiresome for those of us that don't like Egwene to be constantly told by the pro-Egwene crowd that the only reason we don't like her is for sexist reasons or Rand fanboyism. This is despite the fact that pages and pages of various threads contain posts that explain our reasons for disliking Egwene and many of the reasons have nothing to do with her being a woman or with Rand.

 

Above you posted several reasons that you like Egwene. You think that her arrogance is actually necessary confidence that helps her survive politically in these dangerous times. Cool, that is your opinion and you have presented your reasons. Would it be fair of me to say that the only reason you like Egwene is because you must be an ambitious young woman who sees a role model or maybe a teenage boy who must have a crush on the hot, strong chick? Of course not. Not only would that be condesending, but it would not even be a valid argument or response to the reasons that you actually posted.

[garion]

Just got an idea on how to "fix" Egwene, have Mat use her as a) a target to demonstrate range/effectiveness of Dragons b) Build a bigger dragon and see how well Egwene can do falling in style.

 

 

 

0

[SuperFade]

Just got an idea on how to "fix" Egwene, have Mat use her as a) a target to demonstrate range/effectiveness of Dragons b) Build a bigger dragon and see how well Egwene can do falling in style.

 

Or c), build a really big Dragon and shoot her out of it. Then place bets on how far she'll fly with all that ego weighing her down.

[Mr Ares]

I thought, though I may be mistaken, that it was pretty common knowledge that the DO wanted to end time.

The Chosen don't agree. I don't know how widespread that opinion was in the Light.

 

How exactly is the destruction that LTT risked different than the one that would happen when (this is something that most people don't get, it WAS a matter of time) the shadow broke the line?

Military victory and Shai'tan's freedom are not the same thing. And even if it is a matter of when, not if, doesn't mean they have to go with a bad plan because it's the only one available.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Egween's character! She went from a whiny, snobby, enoying little girl to this amazing leader.

 

Some don't like her because she is a woman in power (the most powerful in Rand land), some don't like her because of how she treated Gawyn, some simply don't understand what it takes to be the leader in her situation, and some don't like her because she didn't bow down and kiss Rand's butt when he sauntered into the WT and announced he was going to break the DO out of prison with no real explanation as to why that was a good idea!

Some people don't like her because she's a Mary Sue. Look at all the people she's got the respect of, look at how much praise she gets from everyone. Look at how brilliant she is (and if we missed it, the characters will be sure to tell us). The flaws in Rand's character, and Perrin's, Mat's, Elayne's, etc. get tackled head on. Hers get ignored. That right there is one reason for people to take against her - there are plenty of others that don't involve being Rand fanboys or sexists.

[Aliriel]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but WHY does she need fixing?

I know she has HUGE faults and lots of people dislike/hate her, but I don't understand why there is this need for every character to be liked by all readers...

Now I'm saying this to get a list of why people like/hate her, it's just my opionion of that fact that everyone has their own tastes in character.

Personally I'm not all that fond of her because I find her to be a bit two dimensional, but that's not the point. I DO NOT believe she needs to be fixed in any way! She is effective as she is, she gets the job done (eventually) and she's paid her dues to the story.

It all comes down to the individual on who they like/dislike and thats that.

 

A.

[MasterAblar]

I thought, though I may be mistaken, that it was pretty common knowledge that the DO wanted to end time.

The Chosen don't agree. I don't know how widespread that opinion was in the Light.

 

How exactly is the destruction that LTT risked different than the one that would happen when (this is something that most people don't get, it WAS a matter of time) the shadow broke the line?

Military victory and Shai'tan's freedom are not the same thing. And even if it is a matter of when, not if, doesn't mean they have to go with a bad plan because it's the only one available.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Egween's character! She went from a whiny, snobby, enoying little girl to this amazing leader.

 

Some don't like her because she is a woman in power (the most powerful in Rand land), some don't like her because of how she treated Gawyn, some simply don't understand what it takes to be the leader in her situation, and some don't like her because she didn't bow down and kiss Rand's butt when he sauntered into the WT and announced he was going to break the DO out of prison with no real explanation as to why that was a good idea!

Some people don't like her because she's a Mary Sue. Look at all the people she's got the respect of, look at how much praise she gets from everyone. Look at how brilliant she is (and if we missed it, the characters will be sure to tell us). The flaws in Rand's character, and Perrin's, Mat's, Elayne's, etc. get tackled head on. Hers get ignored. That right there is one reason for people to take against her - there are plenty of others that don't involve being Rand fanboys or sexists.

 

The chosen are selfish and want to rule the world. The DO could easily lie to them and they would believe it. The light would not be blinded by their desires.

 

Military victory would shortly lead to the DO's freedom anyway. During the short time between the light's military defeat and the DO's complete release, not only is their ability to come up with a better plan (or make LTT's less risky) not certain, but there is no guaranty that they could implement that plan after their military defeat. I doubt the shadow would allow any resistance and I think people like LTT and LPD, as leaders of the light (not to mention the Creator's champion) would be hunted relentlessly. Before the military defeat there is still the ability to implement the plan. Besides LTT acted because there was no more time, so it's pretty doubtful that post-military defeat there would be any time. And I don't think the terrible toll that would have had to be endured by the population if the light lost was acceptable.

 

I personally don't think that Egwene needs to be fixed so to speak. I think she has made mistakes in judgement and has gotten a little of a big head which I think she will have to realize, but that seems more or less logical considering her position and how much success she has had. Sure she has flaws in her personality but I don't find her detestable.

[randsc]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Egween's character! She went from a whiny, snobby, enoying little girl to this amazing leader.

 

Some don't like her because she is a woman in power (the most powerful in Rand land), some don't like her because of how she treated Gawyn, some simply don't understand what it takes to be the leader in her situation, and some don't like her because she didn't bow down and kiss Rand's butt when he sauntered into the WT and announced he was going to break the DO out of prison with no real explanation as to why that was a good idea!

Some people don't like her because she's a Mary Sue. Look at all the people she's got the respect of, look at how much praise she gets from everyone. Look at how brilliant she is (and if we missed it, the characters will be sure to tell us). The flaws in Rand's character, and Perrin's, Mat's, Elayne's, etc. get tackled head on. Hers get ignored. That right there is one reason for people to take against her - there are plenty of others that don't involve being Rand fanboys or sexists.

 

Yeah, even if you're not willing to believe that I can dislike Egwene for non-sexist reasons, can you exmplain why Mr Ares, who is a big Elayne fan, doesn't like her, if the opposition is just sexism?

[Pygmalion79]

Yeah, even if you're not willing to believe that I can dislike Egwene for non-sexist reasons, can you exmplain why Mr Ares, who is a big Elayne fan, doesn't like her, if the opposition is just sexism?

And I like both Egwene and Elayne, but I still think that Egwene is a hypocrite, unreflective, and proudly wedded to a distorted picture of the proper role of the White Tower. I like her despite these qualities, but can understand why others would dislike her because of them, and I would definitely like to see her lose one or two or all three of them in AMOL.

[Elan Tedronai]

Yeah, even if you're not willing to believe that I can dislike Egwene for non-sexist reasons, can you exmplain why Mr Ares, who is a big Elayne fan, doesn't like her, if the opposition is just sexism?

And I like both Egwene and Elayne, but I still think that Egwene is a hypocrite, unreflective, and proudly wedded to a distorted picture of the proper role of the White Tower. I like her despite these qualities, but can understand why others would dislike her because of them, and I would definitely like to see her lose one or two or all three of them in AMOL.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins,

she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from

Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

 

Fixing implies that there is something inherently wrong with the person. Like rand in book 11 and 12. He needed fixing. Egwene has never reached those heights of darkness and coldness. Until then, she needs no fixing.

[capuga]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but WHY does she need fixing?

I know she has HUGE faults and lots of people dislike/hate her, but I don't understand why there is this need for every

 

The premise of the thread was not that she needs to be fixed so that everyone likes her. Typically when readers don't like a character its because the authors have intentionally written them as unlikable. The premise is the original poster believes that the authors expect readers to like Egwene. So why is she so disliked by many people? What would need to be done to make her more likable to these readers? There seems to be a disconnect between the authors intent and the actual reader response to this character.

[randsc]

 

Fixing implies that there is something inherently wrong with the person. Like rand in book 11 and 12. He needed fixing. Egwene has never reached those heights of darkness and coldness. Until then, she needs no fixing.

 

If RJ/BS intend Egwene to be likable, they are falling far wide of the mark, for a great many readers. Hence the need to fix their portrayal of her.

 

I'm still not entirely convinced that they do intend her to be likable. I think it is possible we will see some real development with the character, possibly explained by the lifting of Compulsion, possibly not. The fact that two writers have contributed to her character makes me think that the way she is portrayed may be intentional.

 

But assuming that they want her liked, and have just missed how Mary Sue-ish she is, she needs to be fixed.

[ranjitb]

I really, really detest the "O that sweetie Egwene, she was just compulsed !" theory, for the same reason I really, really hate the beloved 13x13 bugbear because it takes that fatal human flaw - and the same time, greatest human strength - free will out of the equation.

 

Note this is not to say I hate the very idea of mind control, as long as it is sparsely applied and to secondary characters, but for the fall back position to be "oh you know the too-perfect all-mother could ONLY ever make a mistake if she was being secretly forced by an EEEEEvil person" is just compounding the problem - that the authors refuse to acknowledge that out of the whole slew of characters, Egwene is less than the epitome of perfection.

Further, while it provides an interesting storytelling twist in explaining some of the questionable decisions Egwene may have made vis-a-vis the siege of Tar Valon, the compulsion idea fails to take into account that she has been a bitch pretty much since her first appearance.

[Muad Cheade]

Compelled. Compelled. The past tense is "compelled." not "compulsed."

 

1. The few people on the board are not indicative of the thoughts and opinions of the fans of this series worldwide.

 

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

[capuga]

Compelled. Compelled. The past tense is "compelled." not "compulsed."

 

1. The few people on the board are not indicative of the thoughts and opinions of the fans of this series worldwide.

 

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Bitch or baby are probably unnecessary but discussing why she seems to be a Mary Sue is a perfectly valid critique on the character.

[Muad Cheade]

Compelled. Compelled. The past tense is "compelled." not "compulsed."

 

1. The few people on the board are not indicative of the thoughts and opinions of the fans of this series worldwide.

 

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Bitch or baby are probably unnecessary but discussing why she seems to be a Mary Sue is a perfectly valid critique on the character.

Oh, I agree. I just would prefer support of that opinion.

[Suttree]

Compelled. Compelled. The past tense is "compelled." not "compulsed."

 

1. The few people on the board are not indicative of the thoughts and opinions of the fans of this series worldwide.

 

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Bitch or baby are probably unnecessary but discussing why she seems to be a Mary Sue is a perfectly valid critique on the character.

Oh, I agree. I just would prefer support of that opinion.

 

It's unfortunate too because on occasion I have seen well thought out, rational critiques of Egwene. Unfortunately the majority of posts devolve to name calling or outright wishing physical harm in describing their dislike. Doesn't help the the anti-Egwene camp who offer valid points and want to not just be seen as sexist or against strong female characters.

[ranjitb]

@Mark - you make a very fair point, and usually I try to lay out my reasons for disliking Egwene, and usually in a vacuum, i.e. not in "comparison" to any other person.

But sometimes rehashing tired old ground is needless, and sometimes a spade is a spade. That is to say, in my opinion, Egwene is and always has been a complete irredeemable bitch.

[capuga]

@Mark - you make a very fair point, and usually I try to lay out my reasons for disliking Egwene, and usually in a vacuum, i.e. not in "comparison" to any other person.

But sometimes rehashing tired old ground is needless, and sometimes a spade is a spade. That is to say, in my opinion, Egwene is and always has been a complete irredeemable bitch.

 

Oh, I happen to mostly agree with you. I was just pointing out that us anti-Egwene posters would be better served to critique the character and not just name call. I also argued strongly several times (see my post a page back for the latest) for the pro-Egwene camp to quit accusing us of just being sexist Rand fanboys when we have actually posted many rational reasons for our dislike of the character.

[randsc]

Compelled. Compelled. The past tense is "compelled." not "compulsed."

 

1. The few people on the board are not indicative of the thoughts and opinions of the fans of this series worldwide.

 

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Bitch or baby are probably unnecessary but discussing why she seems to be a Mary Sue is a perfectly valid critique on the character.

Oh, I agree. I just would prefer support of that opinion.

 

Complete, objective critiques of the character have been offered many times. For example, here:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/53571-discuss-egwene/

 

That is not the purpose of this thread. This thread assumes that she is meant to be liked, and mostly isn't. Neither is necessarily true, neither can be dismissed out of hand.

 

As for the Mary Sue-ness, you can run down the whole checklist of Mary Sue traits and find support in the text for assigning those traits to Egwene. About the only thing she hasn't done is sleep with Captain Kirk.

[White_star]

... Like rand in book 11 and 12. He needed fixing. Egwene has never reached those heights of darkness and coldness...

True, she's not as dark (yet) as pre-vog rand; but coldness, IMO she was pretty damn close if not there already. What was the first thing she thought when she guesses Elayne had bonded Rand? 'Hmm, that could be useful'. She went from starting to thaw in TGS to pop-cycle queen in TOM. She has become the "perfect" third age AS.

 

However, maybe she is already on the verge of a revelation.

As was mentioned, she finally calls herself a fool in TOM; it took her 13 books, a dead accepted and a nearly dead Gawyn to do that but at least it's a step in the right direction. She was also troubled by what Nynaeve said after her AS test, which could have been because Nynaeve said she valued her husband over being in the AS club but it may also be the spark that helps Egwene see straight. In the end I really hope she does so I can tolerate the character once again.

 

As for the Mary Sue-ness, you can run down the who checklist of Mary Sue traits and find support in the text for assigning those traits to Egwene. About the only thing she hasn't done is sleep with Captain Kirk.

cheers!

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Ok, who is Mary Sue?

[Ashandarei]

Ok, who is Mary Sue?

 

Check this link: Mary Sue

[randsc]

A Mary Sue is a character that is overly-idealized, is intended by the author to be lacking in discernable flaws, has everything break her way, has exotic or supernatural powers, is poorly-developed, and serves as an obvious insertion of the author or another real-life person into the story. Or any combination of the above. Basically, if the character can be described in the terms you use in your first post on this thread, she's Mary Sue.

 

The term comes from Star Trek fan fiction, specifically from "A Trekkie's Tale" by Paula Smith.

 

Egwene is either Mary Sue, or she is going to develop, show self-reflection, be shown as flawed, etc.

 

The most common opinion seems to be that she is a Mary Sue. I hope not, because I think Jordan was generally a little more deft than that. But we'll see.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

 

Would it be fair of me to say that the only reason you like Egwene is because you must be an ambitious yoman who sees a role model or maybe a teenage boy who must have a crush on the hot, strong chick? Of course not. Not only would that be condesending, but it would not even be a valid argument or response to the reasons that you actually posted.

 

No it wouldn't be fair to lable me one of those and I have refrained from accusing any one person of being sexist or ill informed about what out takes to great war time leader.

 

I'm sure there are plenty that dislike Egween and some that even hate her that don't fall into either category. So if anyone thinks I did I apologize.

 

However, if you step back and read all of the hate filled posts her with some of the weakest irrational explanations about why they hate her you can come to the congleton that I did that there are alot here that fall into the categories I listed.

 

If you or anyone else freel they don't fall into this stereotype, and it is a stereotype, than don't take offense. I was making a generality. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

 

I have my views and I really don't care what anyone else thinks.

 

By the way if enough people posted views that would support your accusations I would have no problem with the generation.

 

And I'm a 43 year old man that is a 22 year Navy vet. So I wouldn't fit either.

[capuga]

 

Would it be fair of me to say that the only reason you like Egwene is because you must be an ambitious yoman who sees a role model or maybe a teenage boy who must have a crush on the hot, strong chick? Of course not. Not only would that be condesending, but it would not even be a valid argument or response to the reasons that you actually posted.

 

No it wouldn't be fair to lable me one of those and I have refrained from accusing any one person of being sexist or ill informed about what out takes to great war time leader.

 

I'm sure there are plenty that dislike Egween and some that even hate her that don't fall into either category. So if anyone thinks I did I apologize.

 

However, if you step back and read all of the hate filled posts her with some of the weakest irrational explanations about why they hate her you can come to the congleton that I did that there are alot here that fall into the categories I listed.

 

If you or anyone else freel they don't fall into this stereotype, and it is a stereotype, than don't take offense. I was making a generality. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

 

I have my views and I really don't care what anyone else thinks.

 

By the way if enough people posted views that would support your accusations I would have no problem with the generation.

 

And I'm a 43 year old man that is a 22 year Navy vet. So I wouldn't fit either.

 

Oh, I really didn't imagine that you would fit either. I was just trying to point out the unfairness of making generalizations of where people's opinions are coming from rather than addressing their actual points. I agree that some of the Egwene hate out there is a bit irrational but most of the people (if you look past the hyperbole) post some pretty reasonable critiques of the character.

 

I wouldn't really expect to change your opinion. And I can see where you're coming from and you would likely have a unique perspective on her performance as a war-time leader. However, being an effective leader does not necessarily equate to being likable. And that is my biggest problem with the character - She is one of the good guys and therefore I'm supposed to root for her and like her, but I just find the character very unsympathetic and unlikable. I would not want to spend time with her or be her friend. So while I will admit that she has become fairly competent, she is still my least favorite light-sided character.