The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[moratcorlm]

Yeah Damane are totally working in numerous aspects of society. Probably why weaves as trivial as Sky Lights are mentioned to be one of the only things they do aside from kill.

Found it.

The damane are not only used as weapons but also aid in construction of large bridges or any structures that would be difficult or impossible without the One Power. The few damane that are strong in Earth (predominantly a male strength) locate and refine metals and rare ores, and are highly valued. Some damane are also used to heal the sick and injured, though only those who are wealthy or among the upper classes.

You cannot cut flows when you are shielded. [...] It's all a matter of skill, oppurtunity and being precise. Even circles of three would be all but unstoppable, most likely.

Yes, that's true. But that will take time to set up and practice to make effective. We don't really know if the Aes Sedai have continued to drill in defensive circle-forming since Salidar. A number of Aes Sedai will be leashed before the circles can strike back, and if the damane find the angreal room, even a circle may not be enough.

- shielding a channeler

- binding someone in flows of air

- disabling someone (preemptively, but not causing any direct harm)

- creating a shield around you

- hiding your ability to channel

- setting wards, traps

 

Do any of these count as using the OP as a weapon? What IS a weapon anyway?

The first, second, fourth, and fifth don't count; we've seen those often enough. The third and sixth may, depending on circumstances. The problem is, any tied-off weave can be unraveled, and any held weave diminishes the channeler's strength, which is important given that the Aes Sedai will probably be outnumbered.

[Taura-Tierno]

In New Spring, Moiraine thought that binding someone so that another could kill the bound person was very close to using the OP as a weapon.

[Suttree]

Yeah Damane are totally working in numerous aspects of society. Probably why weaves as trivial as Sky Lights are mentioned to be one of the only things they do aside from kill.

Found it.

The damane are not only used as weapons but also aid in construction of large bridges or any structures that would be difficult or impossible without the One Power. The few damane that are strong in Earth (predominantly a male strength) locate and refine metals and rare ores, and are highly valued. Some damane are also used to heal the sick and injured, though only those who are wealthy or among the upper classes.

 

Well mining and construction we knew already from the books. I would say they are somewhat related. The healing is interesting however. Especially when you consider how much of a big deal Tuon has made out of discovering Aes Sedai Healing weaves at different points in the story. Sheraine Caminelle who became Mylen showed it to Tuon, who seemed not to have been aware that the one power could be used to heal and then taught it to her other Damane...

 

KoD Ch25

"This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it and I taught it to my others, too. Of course many people are foolish about having the Power touch them"

 

"my servants would faint at the suggestion and most of the Blood, too"

 

That shows it is not a widespread practice in their society. So if hereditary servants of the Daughter of the Nine Moons and "most" of the Blood would not allow the one power to touch them to heal, who would? Certainly not those of the lower classes who are less educated, would be more prone to superstition and have more reason to be scared of Damane. Also what type of healing could it be I wonder since Healing has come from captured Aes Sedai and Tuon was unaware of it beforehand?

[moratcorlm]

I remember that someplace in TSR Aviendha (?) mentioned that some Wise Ones had abilities at healing, but the Wise Ones as a group did not have the skill. It seems to me that it's a sort of wilder invention, which is to Healing as Verin's cobbled-together brainwashing weave is to Compulsion. Though why in either case the weave could not be passed on, even as incomplete as it is, is beyond me. And that "most of the Blood would faint" in KOD strikes me as something of a contradiction with the Guide, though the latter was written years earlier, partly by another author, and possibly put out of Jordan's mind afterwards.

 

The thing is, now that they have Healing and Tuon approves of its use, she can at the very least order its use in the army and her personal retinue. Perhaps she cannot force the Blood to follow suit, but ... well, a big upheaval over the way channelers are treated is coming to the Seanchan before that percolates through in any case.

[Erunion]

I personally am really looking forward to how Jordan/Sanderson will deal with the Seanchan - It's a very tricky problem.

 

Do you guys think that Damane would be able to use Angreal/Sa'angreal? I don't think they can, as the Sul'dam force them to embrace the source through the A'dam. However, it might be possible for the Sul'dam to use an Angreal through the Damane, but the Sul'dam would have to be taught how.

What do we know about the A'dam? From TGH, we are shown that the Sul'dam can force the Damane to embrace the source, and from Nynaeve's PoV in FOH we are shown that the Sul'dam can themselves embrace the source, using the Damane as a power-boost (this is likely how Tuon did the weaves in KoD). I get the idea that most Sul'dam allow their Damane to weave the weaves themselves, but some Sul'dam weave through the Damane directly.

As you have to channel through an Angreal, I don't think the Sul'dam/Damane link would allow it as the Damane cannot themselves embrace the power, therefore they could not embrace the power through an Angreal, but it could be possible for a Sul'dam with the know-how to use the Angreal through the Damane.

[blazetheearth]

I personally am really looking forward to how Jordan/Sanderson will deal with the Seanchan - It's a very tricky problem.

 

Do you guys think that Damane would be able to use Angreal/Sa'angreal? I don't think they can, as the Sul'dam force them to embrace the source through the A'dam. However, it might be possible for the Sul'dam to use an Angreal through the Damane, but the Sul'dam would have to be taught how.

What do we know about the A'dam? From TGH, we are shown that the Sul'dam can force the Damane to embrace the source, and from Nynaeve's PoV in FOH we are shown that the Sul'dam can themselves embrace the source, using the Damane as a power-boost (this is likely how Tuon did the weaves in KoD). I get the idea that most Sul'dam allow their Damane to weave the weaves themselves, but some Sul'dam weave through the Damane directly.

As you have to channel through an Angreal, I don't think the Sul'dam/Damane link would allow it as the Damane cannot themselves embrace the power, therefore they could not embrace the power through an Angreal, but it could be possible for a Sul'dam with the know-how to use the Angreal through the Damane.

 

I agree that I'm looking forward to the Seanchan story line in the next book, it should be interesting.

 

One thing I wanted to point out though is that RJ said as of KoD that Toun could not be collared yet, she did not have enough time wearing the a'dam bracelet to bring her to the brink like Bethamin and Seta had. That means that Toun could not embrace through them, because any woman that can embrace the Source at all can be collared.

[blazetheearth]

KoD Ch25

"This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it and I taught it to my others, too. Of course many people are foolish about having the Power touch them"

 

"my servants would faint at the suggestion and most of the Blood, too"

 

That shows it is not a widespread practice in their society. So if hereditary servants of the Daughter of the Nine Moons and "most" of the Blood would not allow the one power to touch them to heal, who would? Certainly not those of the lower classes who are less educated, would be more prone to superstition and have more reason to be scared of Damane. Also what type of healing could it be I wonder since Healing has come from captured Aes Sedai and Tuon was unaware of it beforehand?

 

Exactly what you said. The Healing is the Healing that AS are taught as Accepted. Mylen was an AS captured at Falme, and taught the Healing that AS from time immemorial have used. The dropped-in-a-bucket-of-ice-water/hungry-as-a-bear-in-spring kind.

[Taura-Tierno]

I'm sure that, if the Empress started receiving Healing, and especially were Healed from a serious injury, its use would spread. Having damane who can Heal most things except death will probably override any fears, eventually. If you're ill or dying, you probably get desperate enough. Once a sufficient amount of people have received it, the fear should subside.

[Elan Tedronai]

A huge mistake made by Egwene is not having each and every angreal out and in use at all times.

 

Egwene has shown that, with a sa'angreal, she was unable to be shielded. Damane cannot link. Any sister with an angreal would be near impossible to shield.

 

Why are they hiding them away? What if another attack comes? Does Egwene really think they are going to give up after one attempt? "Oh yeah, they took a bunch of sisters, we killed a couple of their mounts... surely they will leave us alone!"

 

 

if the aes sedai distribute angreal and sangreal amongst themselves, then the seanchan are doomed whether they travel through the kitchen or the amyrlin's room.

 

In any case, elaida's foretelling has made it all certain that the seanchan are in for a nasty suprise.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

A huge mistake made by Egwene is not having each and every angreal out and in use at all times.

 

Egwene has shown that, with a sa'angreal, she was unable to be shielded. Damane cannot link. Any sister with an angreal would be near impossible to shield.

 

Why are they hiding them away? What if another attack comes? Does Egwene really think they are going to give up after one attempt? "Oh yeah, they took a bunch of sisters, we killed a couple of their mounts... surely they will leave us alone!"

 

 

if the aes sedai distribute angreal and sangreal amongst themselves, then the seanchan are doomed whether they travel through the kitchen or the amyrlin's room.

 

In any case, elaida's foretelling has made it all certain that the seanchan are in for a nasty suprise.

 

 

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and

scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin

Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and

sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

 

Hmm, pretty sure this is the foretelling you're talking about?

 

The foretelling doesn't make anything certain, except that the Aes Sedai will be at their strongest at one given time. Within seconds of the prophecy being completed they can all be turned to dust, with the prophecy having been completed.

 

Also, Elaida's foretellings aren't too reliable, seeing as "As I have Foretold...The White Tower will be reunited under me."

[MattTaz]

 

 

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and

scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin

Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and

sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

 

Hmm, pretty sure this is the foretelling you're talking about?

 

The foretelling doesn't make anything certain, except that the Aes Sedai will be at their strongest at one given time. Within seconds of the prophecy being completed they can all be turned to dust, with the prophecy having been completed.

 

Also, Elaida's foretellings aren't too reliable, seeing as "As I have Foretold...The White Tower will be reunited under me."

 

With the timeline being all over the place, the Black Towere being 'rent' could occur at the same time as Rand meeting Egwene, which

was interestingly called The Amyrlin's Anger.

But I think BS kicked an own goal with Avi seeing the future and WT, BT, Caemlyn all existing

Be nice to see the WT destroyed though haha :)

[moratcorlm]

With the timeline being all over the place, the Black Towere being 'rent' could occur at the same time as Rand meeting Egwene, which was interestingly called The Amyrlin's Anger.

No, it couldn't. Nynaeve went to the Black Tower at least three days after that, and probably longer; Perrin notices the Dreamspike still present about a week later; Rand states his inability to Travel to the Black Tower 27 days later.

But I think BS kicked an own goal with Avi seeing the future and WT, BT, Caemlyn all existing

That's only if Aviendha saw the future, which seems improbable.

[rand4747]

With the timeline being all over the place, the Black Towere being 'rent' could occur at the same time as Rand meeting Egwene, which was interestingly called The Amyrlin's Anger.

No, it couldn't. Nynaeve went to the Black Tower at least three days after that, and probably longer; Perrin notices the Dreamspike still present about a week later; Rand states his inability to Travel to the Black Tower 27 days later.

But I think BS kicked an own goal with Avi seeing the future and WT, BT, Caemlyn all existing

That's only if Aviendha saw the future, which seems improbable.

 

I think Avi saw the worst case for her people. Its a possibility, perhaps the most likely, Caemlyn is probably under attack at the end of ToM, we cant be sure it was caemlyn and not the black tower or something, but we are fairly sure it is. Caemlyn will survive in that future, until the Seanchan attack anyway.

 

Avi will knowing that vision change the future where not only the aiel survive or mostly but some or all of the main characters survive a long time as well, all we know though in that alternate is Avienda survived long enough after the last battle to have children from Rand and also Elaybe for hers to be born. Also unless Rand and Avi get at it right before the last battle, he must survive a while as well.

[Mr Ares]

I guess I'm looking at how the oaths should "technically" work.. If the Aes Sedai are allowed to "lie" and use the Power as a weapon when their lives aren't in danger.. Then what's next? using the Power to make weapons for women? (For one man to kill another) then the woman can just hand the weapons to the men? Since they made it for the woman, it's not breaking their oath..

But Aes Sedai can lie. They just have to believe what they are saying.

If you believe what you are saying, it is not a lie. Lies are deliberate falsehoods. If you are saying something you believe to be true but which isn't you are not lying, you are mistaken.

[FarShainMael]

I guess I'm looking at how the oaths should "technically" work.. If the Aes Sedai are allowed to "lie" and use the Power as a weapon when their lives aren't in danger.. Then what's next? using the Power to make weapons for women? (For one man to kill another) then the woman can just hand the weapons to the men? Since they made it for the woman, it's not breaking their oath..

But Aes Sedai can lie. They just have to believe what they are saying.

If you believe what you are saying, it is not a lie. Lies are deliberate falsehoods. If you are saying something you believe to be true but which isn't you are not lying, you are mistaken.

^^^^ This.

[capuga]

I guess I'm looking at how the oaths should "technically" work.. If the Aes Sedai are allowed to "lie" and use the Power as a weapon when their lives aren't in danger.. Then what's next? using the Power to make weapons for women? (For one man to kill another) then the woman can just hand the weapons to the men? Since they made it for the woman, it's not breaking their oath..

But Aes Sedai can lie. They just have to believe what they are saying.

If you believe what you are saying, it is not a lie. Lies are deliberate falsehoods. If you are saying something you believe to be true but which isn't you are not lying, you are mistaken.

 

True, they are not actually lying. But they are able to speak something that was not actually true. I was applying that same point to being able to use the Power as a weapon. The Oaths are not some kind of magical force that know what all the truths in the world are and only allow you to speak things that are correct. They only allow you to speak things you personally believe are correct - even if you are mistaken. The same goes for using the Power as a weapon. The Oaths don't magically know that the Seanchan are seeking to capture and not kill and therefore prevent you using the Power as a weapon. They will allow the Aes Sedai to fight with the Power if they believe their lives are at risk - even if they are mistaken. And I think it is crazy to believe that most of the Aes Sedai will not feel their lives are in danger if they are attacked by a group weilding the One Power that had just recently killed several of their members.

 

By the way Mr Ares, I am just continuing a debate I've been having with others on this thread and not actually replying to your (correct) point.

[Mr Ares]

And I quite agree with your point - if when the Seanchan return, the AS will almost certainly feel their lives are in danger. Many were killed last time, and it would be very difficult to give the appearance of being no threat to their lives this time. And the chances are there will be a risk to their lives - they would rather kill marath'damane than let them escape.

[fikkie77]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

[sidcarton]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

 

 

Unfortunately I think that would disqualify a great many of the Aes Sedai. The testing in and of itself apparently has become disjoined from the proper role of Aes Sedai (for example, see Nynaeve's testing and the reaction of the Aes Sedai testers). It's not at all clear that this was always the case and I think a lot of what has happened is the loss of both absolute numbers of Aes Sedai (Siuan's comment on the paucity of novices and Accepted and how the WT sits mostly empty), their lack of diversity in general (in Mat's memories, even a common court noble of Trolloc War era vintage knew that Sea Folk Windfinder's were channelers -- now they can't even find the channelers in their own midst let alone other peoples), and their lack of exposure to the real world prior to their testing. If Egwene accomplishes nothing else, the plan to "season" Accepted by sending them on exchange programs with other channeler cultures will bear useful fruit. Come to think of it, her plan to allow anyone regardless of age to test for Novice might be even more crucial.

 

Back to the original question I had, though: Was it made clear who told Furtuona (May She Be Burned in the Fires of Her Own Blindness) about the basement storeroom entrance? I assumed that this would be yet another piece of information that Elaida betrayed (She Who Is Already Burning in the FHOB).

 

Scary scenario: The Seanchan Invasion Force Travels into the Basement of the White Tower -- only to run into the Prince of the Ravens who is looking for the Horn of Valere which also happens to be in one of the basement store rooms...

[David Selig]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

That's not how the Oaths work. There's nothing in them about not teaching others whatever you want. As long the Aes Sedai herself is not using the weave as a weapon on someone, she can teach anyone any weave, including balefire, fireball, etc.

 

Plus Travelling in itself, even if used to transport troops for an attack, is not considered a weapon by the Aes Sedai, Egwene commented on that in TGS.

[Elan Tedronai]

For me, the fact that Elaida showed Travelling to Fortuona, is proof that she's mentally very weak and unfit to be Aes Sedai at all. She would fail the test for the shawl if she had to do it again.

The three oaths would prevent her using the One Power as a weapon... The only thing she had to do was to imagine how large of a weapon Travelling would be for the Seanchan. If she had, she couldn't have shown it to Fotuona or her sul'dam.

 

 

the aes sedai testing is seriously flawed at this point. i don't think elaida would ever be raised to full aes sedai in AOL. I think once the last battle is done, someone somewhere will find how aes sedai in AOL were raised and all the current aes sedai, aes sedai wannabe's and the ashaman will take part

[Lacanos]

Everyone is so harsh on Elaida - how she developed was Fain's fault, if you recall when he was on the tower he did "something" to her.

[bysomy]

She abused power, even before she was Fain'd. Like when she "encourages" Siuan to gain the shawl in New Spring, Or when she secretly disposed Siuan and Leane, in the process stabbing Siuan's warder in the back for no apparent reason.

[Suttree]

Everyone is so harsh on Elaida - how she developed was Fain's fault, if you recall when he was on the tower he did "something" to her.

 

She was heading down that path long before Fain showed up..."The Vileness" just being one example of the types of things she was involved in.

[blazetheearth]

Everyone is so harsh on Elaida - how she developed was Fain's fault, if you recall when he was on the tower he did "something" to her.

 

Have you read New Spring? She was a sadist and unstable to begin with. Fain did not have to push er far. Yes he did something to her, but she had already manipulated others into murdering Suian's Warder Alric, and led a coup to achieve personal power. He was very fertile ground for Fain's tricks.