Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.

[Luckers]

can we get an a poll as to who's fault it is that Caymlin under attack: Verin's or Mat's. I'm just getting some serious discussion going with one person here and I really want to have an opinion of people. PLEASE LUCKERS!

[fborch]

What I don't get here, while not directly related to Caemlyn is Verin. Putting what she did in the letter, wouldn't that be betraying the Dark One. She certainly wrote that letter before the "last hour of her life", and it is no doubt a betrayal to warn the forces of the light that there is a shadowspawn army advancing on one of their strongest cities.

[David Selig]

What I don't get here, while not directly related to Caemlyn is Verin. Putting what she did in the letter, wouldn't that be betraying the Dark One. She certainly wrote that letter before the "last hour of her life", and it is no doubt a betrayal to warn the forces of the light that there is a shadowspawn army advancing on one of their strongest cities.

She intended to either be dead by the time the letter is opened (this is why she made Mat promise to wait for 10 days) or released from the oaths by using the oath rod in the White tower. This way she convinced herself to be able to write it.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I think it's Elaynes fault because what kind of a idiot ruler pulls every single one of her troops from the city, especially knowing TG is on your doorstep AND given the recent struggle for the throne. She could have Went along to the meeting with a honor guard, and if she needed to bring the rest late she could have traveled them there, i mean she does have the entire kin at her disposal right now plus all her troops for no reason other than for show.

[moroten]

Imo its Verin's fault. To trust such important information with a very big IF. She completly misjudged Mat.

[GB]

Elayne shouldnt have left with the bulk of her forces to the Fields of Merrilor, i am assuming that she did, i only read ToM once, and i cant remember how many she brough with her. I can only remember Egwene saying all the monarchs had to bring the bulk of their forces.

[f3llyn]

Voted for Verin, why couldn't she have just hopped to Caemlyn to destroy it herself? She risked a lot be leaving it to Mat and the gamble didn't pay off.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Imo its Verin's fault. To trust such important information with a very big IF. She completely misjudged Mat.

 

How could she tell Elayne?

 

Verin : oh btw there is a attack going to happen on your city

Elayne: how do you know that (thinks she must be black ajah)

Verin: I cant tell you.

Elayne: *shields and binds Verin*

 

and i cant see Verin Trusting Elayne even with a letter. If Elayne thought it important she would ignore any time limits put on the letter.

 

Plus the letter wasn't even to be given to mat initally, she trusted it to him because his taveren ability pulled her to him.

[David Selig]

You need a full circle to destroy a Waygate, Verin couldn't have done it alone.

 

Egwene should be in the poll too, after all it's her plan to collect all armies of the world in one place.

 

Rand too, he tricked Egwene into this plan. And he didn't destroy the Caemlyn Waygate nor did he put the type of Shadowspawn killing traps like the one he made for the Shadar Logoth one.

 

I'd say the order of blame is Verin - Elayne - Egwene - Rand - Mat. All have some share of it, Mat the least of them.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

You need a full circle to destroy a Waygate, Verin couldn't have done it alone.

 

Egwene should be in the poll too, after all it's her plan to collect all armies of the world in one place.

 

Rand too, he tricked Egwene into this plan. And he didn't destroy the Caemlyn Waygate nor did he put the type of Shadowspawn killing traps like the one he made for the Shadar Logoth one.

 

I'd say the order of blame is Verin - Elayne - Egwene - Rand - Mat. All have some share of it, Mat the least of them.

 

Drop Verin between Egwene and Rand and i think you would have the right order :)

 

Remember Rand has a million and one things to do, he might have anticipated Egwene moving the leaders into one spot but certainly not entire armies. he already went off at the Boarderlanders for moving away from where they should be.

 

The blame is equal Egwene and Elayne, Verin less so because she is under strict conditions as to what she can/can't do, she's lucky she could write the letter in the first place.

[dwn]

It's a complex situation. Mat and Verin both share some culpability, but at the same time they're just victims of circumstance. I don't really consider Elayne involved at all (so far) because we don't really know how much of a force she left behind in Caemlyn.

 

I tend to place a bit more fault on Mat's shoulders, because while Verin could have perhaps handled the situation better, it is Mat's pathological and irrational fear of Aes Sedai that really lit the fuse.

 

Now, I don't think Caemlyn is in catastrophic danger. It'll be hit hard, but Talmanes and the remaining Kin will no doubt be able to get word out and/or provide a sufficient defence of the city. A waygate simply isn't large enough to allow for an overwhelming invasion of shadowspawn.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

No, I still think it's Verin in the first place. At the very least, she could've told Egwene during their last meeting instead of spending five minutes talking about Laras and how good her tea is.

 

Though my view can change when we see how many of the Kin are left in the palace and able to send word to Elayne of emergency. If there's none, she'd move up into first place. And I'd be mad at the RJ/BS for a really lame way to create a plot tension - making so many characters behave like idiots (Verin, Elayne, Birgitte, etc) to give the Shadow forces a chance.

[moroten]

Imo its Verin's fault. To trust such important information with a very big IF. She completely misjudged Mat.

 

How could she tell Elayne?

 

Verin : oh btw there is a attack going to happen on your city

Elayne: how do you know that (thinks she must be black ajah)

Verin: I cant tell you.

Elayne: *shields and binds Verin*

 

and i cant see Verin Trusting Elayne even with a letter. If Elayne thought it important she would ignore any time limits put on the letter.

 

Plus the letter wasn't even to be given to mat initally, she trusted it to him because his taveren ability pulled her to him.

 

Then dont tell Elayne, its not as if I ever stated that that was the best option. She could have left a similair letter with Rand before she left him(or after she was done with Mat and the ta'veren pull was done). She could have made a better deal with Mat, one that promises no Aes Sedai leashes and aswell stating that this was very important for the LB. I think Mat would have taken responsibility then instead she went ahead of just giving Mat even more reason not to open it. She could have played her cards so much better, without running to Elayne.

 

Besides the time limit of actually opening the letter has nothing to do with it. She states in the letter that she thought Mat would hold a few days before opening the letter. She needed to make sure that he promised so that she could avoid breaking the oath to the DO. Then if he broke the promises and opened it the hour after was of no importance to her as long as she herself believed it. Same deal with Elayne.

 

I dont see how Elayne and Egwene can even be part of the blame game. They knew nothing of what was comming something Verin did. Sure moving the army might not have been the best idea but we are running short on time now, the strike against the DO is about to happen so from their knowledge moving the army was the best option.

 

Rand on the other hand can have some blame appointed to him. He knew for a fact that the shadow are using the Waygates to move big armies. He thought putting watch on all of them were sufficient enough while knowing that some Waygates are actually embedded in the major citys.

 

Only Verin and Rand can be appointed blame since only they had knowledge of the Waygate situation, the rest were left ignorant.

[Deadsy]

It's Verin's fault. She could have written a note in the book she gave Egwene.

 

 

It's also the Dark One's fault.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

They knew nothing of what was comming

 

Elayne KNEW a army was coming to attack the city, she heard it first hand from darkfriends held in her cells.

 

Egwene knows about the ways and knows that Trollocs are spweing through the borderlands, she surely must have at least thought that trollocs could use the ways and attack further in randland, hence why asking for the armies to come too was a stupid idea.

 

It's Verin's fault. She could have written a note in the book she gave Egwene.

 

She could have but then what would the likely hood be that Egwene would read that particular line in time? not likely considering all she was hung up on was names of the BA.

 

Rand on the other hand can have some blame appointed to him. He knew for a fact that the shadow are using the Waygates to move big armies. He thought putting watch on all of them were sufficient enough while knowing that some Waygates are actually embedded in the major citys

 

Elayne had known about the waygates. If she was that worried about the waygate she could have had the kin destroy it, or more guards put there.

Not to mention Rand was getting progressively insane and has a billion things to get done.

 

She could have played her cards so much better, without running to Elayne.

 

I agree she probably could have played it better. BUT you have to remember that she was potentially planning her death/doing something crazy as getting the oath road. so her mind would not have been entirely on Mat. We also dont know what other things verin had to do, she did want to move on very quickly as she was very busy. It's not like she had a prepared speech just for mat all organised, im thinking most of it was done "on the fly".

 

She could have left a similar letter with Rand before she left him.

 

While he has pretty much insane? i somehow doubt he would have been very interested.

[Jeangray]

Rand. He took time to Travel to Shadar Logoth and ward the Waygate there, but it never occurred to him to do the same to the Waygates in the cities where he was actually staying for lengthy periods of time?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Rand. He took time to Travel to Shadar Logoth and ward the Waygate there, but it never occurred to him to do the same to the Waygates in the cities where he was actually staying for lengthy periods of time?

 

He had already set someone to do that :B Loials teacher if i remember correctly. Maybe not the weaves but certainly locking them up.

[Braden]

Verin: "Here's a list of the black ajah egwene... Oh btw the forces of evil are using the ways and intend to attack caemlyn. I wrote it all down there on the other aide of your list, maybe use your talent to warn elayne."

 

This attacking caemlyn element has too many holes. Why didn't it trigger mats dice? Because no one close to him in the city?

[WhiskyJack]

Trollocs?

[Jeangray]

He had already set someone to do that :B Loials teacher if i remember correctly. Maybe not the weaves but certainly locking them up.

 

Not the same at all. He saw Moiraine break through a locked Waygate in TEoTW. He has wasted enough time just sitting around in both Caemlyn and Cahirien, he could have easily slipped in a couple of hours to ward their Waygates against Shadowspawn, like he did the one in Shadar Logoth.

[mikael]

Appointing blame for something that's an obvious plot device... ;) Anyway, if RJ/BS is off the list then it's obviously Verin. If she had said, "read this in 10 days and I'll gateway you to Caemlyn, you are in no way obligated to do what I recommend in the letter as long as you read it". Then there would have been no problem at all, there is no way Mat wouldn't act on that information, so why give him incentive to not read it?

 

Concerning Egwene/Elayne, I think it's too late to expect our heros to in any way prepare for the LB when there's petty politics to focus on.

[moroten]

Elayne KNEW a army was coming to attack the city, she heard it first hand from darkfriends held in her cells.

 

Elayne had no experience of the darkspawn transporting armies through the ways. When it comes to the darkfriend information she might or might not have believed it. Chesmal was captured and would have lied/done anything to escape punishment. She also didnt know where the attack would take place only that Andor would be targeted.

 

Egwene knows about the ways and knows that Trollocs are spweing through the borderlands, she surely must have at least thought that trollocs could use the ways and attack further in randland, hence why asking for the armies to come too was a stupid idea.

 

Just because she knows about the ways doesnt mean she knows of a immenent attack. She also knows that the ways are dagnerous and that moving thousands of troops through them has a high likelyhood of attracting the dark wind.

 

 

Elayne had known about the waygates. If she was that worried about the waygate she could have had the kin destroy it, or more guards put there.

Not to mention Rand was getting progressively insane and has a billion things to get done.

 

Again Elayne knows about the Way gate but not of it as a mean of transporting entire armies of shadowspawn. Waygates are also known to be indestructble, most likely she doesnt have the knowledge that Waygates are able of being destroyed. More guards wouldnt have helped.

 

 

While he has pretty much insane? i somehow doubt he would have been very interested.

 

You doubt that the KoD Rand would have been interested in finding out a part of the DO plans? Yes Rand was insane at that point but not in the condition most ashaman that had to be out down. He was no danger to himself or others around him. He had evolved another personality to cope with all the memories of LTT, while he was in complete controll of himself. Rand was insane but that didnt hinder him from effectively fighting the dark side or loose interest in valuable information. Rand would have been very eager to know what the DO was planning.

[LazyMonk]

Definitely Verin's fault.

1. She made a fatal error in predicting Mat's behavior.

2. The promise she forced from Mat, which made him refuse to open the letter, was utterly unnecessary. All was needed was "Wait X days. read the letter and do with the info what you will".

3. Why not mention it to Egwene?!

 

Elayne has a part for not taking greater safety measures in spite of being warned.

[David Selig]

I am a bit confused about the whole sealing/closing Waygate things. When Loial and Perrin went to Two Rivers, after they were out of the Ways, Loial closed the Waygate from the outside and we get this

 

"Loial had replaced the trefoil leaf from inside on the outside.

 

The Ogier heaved a deep, relieved sigh. “That is the best I can do. It can only be opened from this side now.” He gave Perrin a look at once anxious and firm. “I could have locked it forever by not replacing the leaves, but I will not ruin a Waygate, Perrin. We grew the Ways and tended them. Perhaps they can be cleansed someday. I cannot ruin a Waygate.”

 

But then after Loial had to seal it due to the Trollocs pouring it, he noted

We closed the Waygate. It will take the Elders or an Aes Sedai to open it again.

 

I am guessing this is what Rand did to the Caemlyn Waygate since he told Loial in KoD he sealed it. Though why didn't Loial told him it's far from a final closure this way since apparently just one Aes Sedai is enough to open it again. How did he know how to seal it anyway?

 

I don't get why there's no mention in all Caemlyn chapters after LoC of the guards which Rand apparently put on the Waygate there. Maybe he removed them after he sealed it.

 

Oh, well, I guess I am thinking too much about a blatant plot device.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What I don't get here, while not directly related to Caemlyn is Verin. Putting what she did in the letter, wouldn't that be betraying the Dark One. She certainly wrote that letter before the "last hour of her life", and it is no doubt a betrayal to warn the forces of the light that there is a shadowspawn army advancing on one of their strongest cities.

 

It seems the way oaths, whether Light or Dark, work in WoT, is that things depend on what the oath taker believes. An Aes Sedai could say black is white if she truly believed it.

 

So, Verin simply convinces herself that these letters are just notes she's making to herself and none of them will be read unless she is already dead. Thus, no betrayal of her oaths to the Dark.