Discuss Graendal

[Luckers]

Go.

[mikael]

After the expecpectations I and many other had for her, considering the prologue, I think she was a huge let down. I thought she would give the first major blow to the light in terms of killing major characters, but alas, all she did was hide in a cave while Slayer did the work. Never a thought of teaming up two against one to tilt those darn taveren scales...

 

Still, I guess she is likely to do some real damage in AMoL if she is the tower that rises the highest in the end.

[Beer Rot]

I'm not sure that rape is a suitable punishment for someone like Graendal.. what if she's a masochist?

[Sharaman]

I'm sure she will be much more motivated after the pep talk with Shaidar.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Many comparisons have been made to Norse mythology - perhaps Graendal will be given to Moridin in mind-trap as Lanfear and Moghedien were, making her the third witch? All three could be described as manipulators, weavers of fate and pullers of strings.

[nleseul]

I'm not sure that rape is a suitable punishment for someone like Graendal.. what if she's a masochist?

 

No. Masochism doesn't work like that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Many comparisons have been made to Norse mythology - perhaps Graendal will be given to Moridin in mind-trap as Lanfear and Moghedien were, making her the third witch? All three could be described as manipulators, weavers of fate and pullers of strings.

 

You mean the Norns?

 

I'd think Rand's harem aligns more closely with them than anybody on the Dark side.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

Many comparisons have been made to Norse mythology - perhaps Graendal will be given to Moridin in mind-trap as Lanfear and Moghedien were, making her the third witch? All three could be described as manipulators, weavers of fate and pullers of strings.

 

That's more or less how I see it, too.

[Morsker]

I'm not sure that rape is a suitable punishment for someone like Graendal.. what if she's a masochist?

Masochists have specific fantasies, and scripted ways they like to be punished. Sadists find the fantasies boring, and enjoy coming up with new and inventive forms of pain, which masochists don't enjoy anymore than anyone else would. I don't think there's any evidence that Graendel is a masochist regardless, and beyond that I think the Forsaken are such monsters that no punishment could ever suffice for their crimes. Best to just balefire them and get on with life.

 

I expect we've mostly seen the last of her. Moghedian and Cyndane almost disappeared since being defeated and mindtrapped. Maybe they'll get dragged out as fodder for someone else's plan, but the series is almost over and there's not much more for her to do.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Many comparisons have been made to Norse mythology - perhaps Graendal will be given to Moridin in mind-trap as Lanfear and Moghedien were, making her the third witch? All three could be described as manipulators, weavers of fate and pullers of strings.

 

You mean the Norns?

 

I'd think Rand's harem aligns more closely with them than anybody on the Dark side.

 

While I'm not sharp on Norse mythology, it is to my understanding that there were good Norns (such as Rand's three) and malevolent (such as Urd, Skuld, Verdandi) which are the ones I'm referring to. Like I said, my knowledge of them isn't that deep, but the entry on it indicates they were at war with mankind.

[nleseul]

I'm not sure that rape is a suitable punishment for someone like Graendal.. what if she's a masochist?

Masochists have specific fantasies, and scripted ways they like to be punished. Sadists find the fantasies boring, and enjoy coming up with new and inventive forms of pain, which masochists don't enjoy anymore than anyone else would.

 

That's not really the way it works either. The masochists I've known generally seem to savor the idea of their owner/top/dom(me)/partner coming up with new and inventive ways of hurting them. And, in a healthy relationship between the two, the sadist looks for ways of inflicting pain that achieve that, while also respecting the masochist's hard limits and ability to safeword at any time. None of this, of course, has anything whatsoever to do with rape.

 

I don't think there's any evidence that Graendel is a masochist regardless,

 

Exactly. Graendal has certainly never shown any such inclination, so there's really no reason to be having this incredibly off-topic conversation anyway. Except that someone decided to make a rather distasteful joke about it.

[Beer Rot]

I'm not sure that rape is a suitable punishment for someone like Graendal.. what if she's a masochist?

Masochists have specific fantasies, and scripted ways they like to be punished. Sadists find the fantasies boring, and enjoy coming up with new and inventive forms of pain, which masochists don't enjoy anymore than anyone else would.

 

That's not really the way it works either. The masochists I've known generally seem to savor the idea of their owner/top/dom(me)/partner coming up with new and inventive ways of hurting them. And, in a healthy relationship between the two, the sadist looks for ways of inflicting pain that achieve that, while also respecting the masochist's hard limits and ability to safeword at any time. None of this, of course, has anything whatsoever to do with rape.

 

I don't think there's any evidence that Graendel is a masochist regardless,

 

Exactly. Graendal has certainly never shown any such inclination, so there's really no reason to be having this incredibly off-topic conversation anyway. Except that someone decided to make a rather distasteful joke about it.

 

Who said I was joking?

 

Graendal did a complete 180 after joining the darkside, became a fervent hedonist... why wouldn't that include things like sadism/masochism?

 

I'm sorry some of you seem to miss the fact that there are women who enjoy rape fantasies.

[AutomatedTeller]

Rape fantasy != rape.

 

Really different things.

[nleseul]

Graendal did a complete 180 after joining the darkside, became a fervent hedonist... why wouldn't that include things like sadism/masochism?

 

Why would it? Being a hedonist doesn't mean that you magically start liking absolutely everything.

 

We have plenty of information about Graendal's tastes—she likes to be served, and she likes to crush free will out of people's minds. She might be fairly described as a domme, and definitely a mind control fetishist. It's certainly not impossible for her to be a masochist in addition to that, but it's definitely never been supported by anything in the text. If she was, don't you think we would have gotten some Semirhage/Graendal fanservice by now?

 

And again, none of this has a frigging thing to do with rape, or with anyone's supposed fantasies thereof.

 

I'm sorry some of you seem to miss the fact that there are women who enjoy rape fantasies.

 

I'm not going to get into the topic of whether there's such a thing as rape fantasies (as opposed to just fantasies about power exchange situations), since I am really not up-to-date on the way people think about the topic and am in no position to judge the words people might choose to use to describe their experiences. But there is a difference between fantasizing about being raped and actually wanting to be raped. And there is an even greater difference between having rape fantasies about the hot male lead on the cover of a romance novel, and being raped by Shaidar bloody Haran.

[Sabio]

Yes she did a 180, according to the BWB "no evidence her change was caused by the DO, but she came to realise the world could never live up to her standards. It may of been her way of showing the world her contempt for what she saw as their way of life, by taking that way to the furthest extremes."

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that she was kind of a pointless letdown in this book and her random and overly complex survival from Rand's balefiring seemed to be totally pointless. It let Moridin have a conversation which told us she killed Asmodean, but other than that I think it would have been better to have her stay dead and have one of the other surviving bad guys like Moggy or Demandred or someone else whom they've forgotten is still alive play her minor and irrelevant role so that they could have a plotline and a reason to not be dead themselves.

 

For her upcoming role, she said that she was tying some strings to Tuon, so I imagine that the comment Mat heard in Camelyn about how there's a rumour that he killed one of the Forsaken was a foreshadowing to how he's going to kill Graendal in the next book to save useless girl.

[randsc]

The irritating thing about Graendal in this book was that she did nothing to justify the rather large suspension of disbelief that was required of readers in her escape from Natrins Barrow.

 

The plot elements that she was involved in could as easily have been put in place prior to her being balefired.

 

What's the point of having her dodge death, yet again, in a wildly implausible manner, and then basically do nothing herself?

[Sabio]

Amazing how you are encouraged to kill each other, but when you do it you get in trouble. Thought her escape was sort of lame but loved the way she screwed over Aran'gar. She is actually getting in trouble for Slayers failure to protect the dreamspike, but since he is so unique they won't do anything to him. He is another one besides killing a bunch of wolves and killing some folks in their sleep he hasn't done much either.

[didymos]

What's the point of having her dodge death, yet again, in a wildly implausible manner, and then basically do nothing herself?

 

What was so "wildly implausible" about it?

[didymos]

Amazing how you are encouraged to kill each other, but when you do it you get in trouble.

 

You're encouraged to when the DO says it is OK. For a while now, he has not been as inclined to allow that and has been pretty clear that he expects them to follow his and Moridin's orders and not have side-projects. There also aren't a lot of Chosen left, and haven't been since the AoL. Of course he's going to want a good explanation for getting one killed.

[nolirion]

Amazing how you are encouraged to kill each other, but when you do it you get in trouble.

 

You're encouraged to when the DO says it is OK. For a while now, he has not been as inclined to allow that and has been pretty clear that he expects them to follow his and Moridin's orders and not have side-projects. There also aren't a lot of Chosen left, and haven't been since the AoL. Of course he's going to want a good explanation for getting one killed.

Assuming being handle by Shadar haran is going to erase all selfishness from here , or to balance with fear of the do.

Is she going to be more dangerous now that Morridin as total control over her ?

I mean she will not be trusted and i think they will handle her much more firmly.

 

Or perhaps she will return to the light understanding that the shadow lead to eternal anguish in the DO prison

Edit : the DO prison being a prison made by the do for is "chosen " to reward them with "eternal life"

[Sabio]

Well Grendal was being rewarded so I assumed part of that was for killing Asmo. Now they are sort of holding that against her. Think she was set up for failure on the last plan. That whole plan sort of sucked. Why not of just had slayer appear in his room at night and kill Perrin?

[dwn]

Well Grendal was being rewarded so I assumed part of that was for killing Asmo. Now they are sort of holding that against her. Think she was set up for failure on the last plan. That whole plan sort of sucked. Why not of just had slayer appear in his room at night and kill Perrin?

 

Because Moridin told her a direct attack would fail. Perrin's ta'veren nature would cause Slayer to trip and impale himself on a horseshoe nail or something.

 

Graendal's plan, as I understand it, was to cause enough local chaos around Perrin that Perrin would briefly 'sidestep fate', allowing something simple and random-ish to kill him. You'd have to do something like that to attack a guy who reality itself is trying to keep alive.

 

-- dwn

[jsbrads]

Uh, nobody mentioned the elephant in the room, when Rand is about to kill Graendal and she sends for a black sister and has arangar both create weaves (compulsion is something she likes to do why would she delegate that)

Rand does not notice saidin on him?

[Sharaman]

Uh, nobody mentioned the elephant in the room, when Rand is about to kill Graendal and she sends for a black sister and has arangar both create weaves (compulsion is something she likes to do why would she delegate that)

Rand does not notice saidin on him?

He doesn't look. LTT-Rand is useless at Healing and he doesn't delve Ramshalam.