Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[Luckers]

Go.

[RahulSingh]

Some times I wish Rand had not stopped his Solo vs them in Ebon Dar.

[fborch]

There has to be a major defeat in the very close future for them. Possibly an assault on the White Tower, rebuffed by everyone else. Tuon will never bow to Rand until that happened. As it is she considers herself superior to the Dragon Reborn.

[mikael]

Seeing the Seanchan humbled is one of the things I'd really like to see that may actually happen. It's not that the other cultures are so good, but the Seanchan really sicken me.

 

On the other hand, how can anyone be so stupid to keep plotting and fighting among the Light when the DR says over and over that it's time to go?

 

On the third hand, I really dislike the thought of Rand submitting to the Seanchan. To condemn his friends, wives and children to what the a'dam does? I don't care how good the Seanchan treats the Tinkers, it's like the Dark Tower book where the village sacrifices half their children to the wolves ones every generation, it's better to fight and risk dieing than to live like that.

[Deathwatch Bloodknife]

The Seanchan will be valuable in the last battle as they'll be able to provide the only air support for the good guys. Plus, they have the best channelers for use in battle. All it will take is for Rand to be a bit more pleasant when he goes before Tuon next time.

 

I found Aviendha's visions of the future strange; they imply that either the Seanchan never accept that Sul'dam can learn to channel or that they either suppress the information or the info never becomes widely known throughout their empire. I still expect Egwene to take some action to get the damane freed and sul'dam trained.

[GB]

i think that rand was planning to get the monarchs to agree to the dragon's peace first and then go meet with Fortuona on the same day and bow to her (or at least just incline his head) and then the two of them would have negotiated something and i think that perrin and egwene might have accompanied him on that trip and others(berelain maybe?).

 

but now with the White Tower attack, his stance will change and the only way to get the Seanchan to ally with him would be with the help of Mat.

 

as for the White Attack, we dont know if egwene ever thought of her second dream about the White Tower attack, and took some measures. but i do not think that the Aes Sedai will fall so easily like last time, with the huge force at the Field, news of the attack will come and egwene will ask for their help.

 

the only thing that bothers me is what will rand do?

 

will he send help to the White Tower and attack or travel to Edou Dar to try stop the attack?

[WhiskyJack]

The Seanchan will be valuable in the last battle as they'll be able to provide the only air support for the good guys. Plus, they have the best channelers for use in battle. All it will take is for Rand to be a bit more pleasant when he goes before Tuon next time.

 

I found Aviendha's visions of the future strange; they imply that either the Seanchan never accept that Sul'dam can learn to channel or that they either suppress the information or the info never becomes widely known throughout their empire. I still expect Egwene to take some action to get the damane freed and sul'dam trained.

 

 

I am quite sure that Asha'man will beat them all.

[fborch]

The Asha'man will likely be very reduced in number when the last battle begins. I expect the battle for the tower, which is any moment now will kill a whole lot of them.

[Braden]

The Asha'man will likely be very reduced in number when the last battle begins. I expect the battle for the tower, which is any moment now will kill a whole lot of them.

 

Agreed, all the Black Tower segments insinuated that Asha'man loyal to Rand and Logain are being turned. Which more then hints that Taim or someone high up in Taims 'favorites' is Moridin.

 

This would also explain how Moridin has a large collection of items of power, he has the recruiting Asha'man looking for them. Additionally the second dreamspike is obviously in use around the Black Tower and he said he only had the two.

 

As for the Seanchan/Fortuona they will fight with Rand, not for him. He will go to her and bow before her I expect as he knows he can't win without them and he still does not expect to survive. This fields of Merilor is just the setup for "the Dragons Peace" I imagine the Seanchan will be involved somehow.

[Frostmuse]

At least we got confirmation that, despite Egwene's best efforts in tGS, the Seanchan consider the raid on the WT to be a complete success. So they must have seriously over-estimated how much resistance they would encounter and thought it would be far harder than it was. On their next attack, that might make them think they're facing an even weaker Tower than before, if they're assuming the same level of resistance, taking into account that the Tower now know some of their tactics just as they know much more about Tower layout and defences (or lack of them). And they would only know (if they know which questions to ask) that they have The Amyrlin and assume that with the head off the snake, the WT is in chaos - when the opposite is true.

 

Which is kind of the Seanchan's one weakness. They've fought the southerner armies of the countries that were barely countries to begin with, rather than the far better trained and united Borderlanders, they've fought the Shaido, not the main Aiel forces, they've raided a broken and bleeding WT under a fool Amyrlin. The only real bloody nose they've had was vs Rand and the Asha'man, which is now highly dependent on what happens at BT. They've been handed their victories - what would happen if they were to go up against an equal force or someone using their own tactics?

[Braden]

At least we got confirmation that, despite Egwene's best efforts in tGS, the Seanchan consider the raid on the WT to be a complete success. So they must have seriously over-estimated how much resistance they would encounter and thought it would be far harder than it was. On their next attack, that might make them think they're facing an even weaker Tower than before, if they're assuming the same level of resistance, taking into account that the Tower now know some of their tactics just as they know much more about Tower layout and defences (or lack of them). And they would only know (if they know which questions to ask) that they have The Amyrlin and assume that with the head off the snake, the WT is in chaos - when the opposite is true.

 

Which is kind of the Seanchan's one weakness. They've fought the southerner armies of the countries that were barely countries to begin with, rather than the far better trained and united Borderlanders, they've fought the Shaido, not the main Aiel forces, they've raided a broken and bleeding WT under a fool Amyrlin. The only real bloody nose they've had was vs Rand and the Asha'man, which is now highly dependent on what happens at BT. They've been handed their victories - what would happen if they were to go up against an equal force or someone using their own tactics?

 

They certainly have won most of their victories by surprise

- Ebou Dar, but it would have fallen anyway

- White Tower, in the middle of a civil war

- Arguably Amadacia, as they conquered the fortress of light at night through air tactics.

 

The only real resistance they faced has been Rand and to a lesser extent Aviendha/Elaynes exploding travelling gate. Illian holds its fortifications but the Seanchan they have the largest standing army (not considering all the aiel nations combined) and now that they have Travelling.

 

This is why in Memory of Light, Rand will kneel to Fortuona in order to get her to sign a peace treaty to fight against the common threat.

[wpflug]

I posted this in the Mat thread a couple hours too early; it definitely belongs here. The issue of the damane is obviously significant, and it is an issue that I expect to see resolved before the Seanchan join with Rand's forces for the Last Battle. We know that the Seanchan originally collared the Aes Sedai to prevent them from using the One Power to gain dominion over non-channelers and to give Luthair's army a significant boost in firepower. The damane are still viewed as too dangerous and useful to allow them autonomy. I think that the combination of Mat's foxhead medallion and his cannons will allow the Seanchan to free the damane.

 

In the other three societies in which we have significant insight into the lives of channelers, we know that the women are restrained by social structure (the Oaths, the cultural prohibition against Wise Ones participating in battle, the strictly defined command structure of the Athan Miere). It is unlikely that such a structure would spontaneously arise were the Seanchan to suddenly free the damane, so they need something else to insure that they don't revert back to the continent's original state (warring Aes Sedai vying for power). The foxhead medallion provides a unique solution to this problem. I see this playing out in one of two ways:

 

a) The Seanchan require all channelers in Seanchan territory to wear a copy of Elayne's flawed medallion, preventing them from channeling.

b) The Seanchan make copies of Mat's original medallion available to all Seanchan citizens, granting them immunity to weaves.

 

I find b) to be significantly more likely, primarily because a) seems to be unenforceable. The two disadvantages to b) are that you have to produce millions of Ter'angreal and channelers can still drop a rock on your head. Fortunately, the Seanchan already have a booming Ter'angreal industry from producing a'dam. The second problem will be addressed later.

 

The Seanchan armies rely on the firepower than damane provide, and that is not an advantage that they will easily give up. In a stroke of luck, Mat has just discovered gunpowder, an invention that will make the damane obsolete. Cannon are capable of being every bit as devastating as damane (particularly given that damane cannot form a circle), and they can be made in much greater numbers. From Aviendha's visions, we know that personal firearms are right around the corner (these will negate the rock on your head issue from above). The Seanchan way of waging war is about to become extinct. The proliferation of gunpowder will make the damane unnecessary from a military perspective.

 

In conclusion, I believe that Rand will be able to trade the knowledge of Mat's medallion and cannon in exchange for a promise from Tuon to begin the process of freeing the damane (presumably Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders immediately, with the native Seanchan slowly integrated back into society after the Last Battle).

 

Thoughts?

[Braden]

I posted this in the Mat thread a couple hours too early; it definitely belongs here. The issue of the damane is obviously significant, and it is an issue that I expect to see resolved before the Seanchan join with Rand's forces for the Last Battle. We know that the Seanchan originally collared the Aes Sedai to prevent them from using the One Power to gain dominion over non-channelers and to give Luthair's army a significant boost in firepower. The damane are still viewed as too dangerous and useful to allow them autonomy. I think that the combination of Mat's foxhead medallion and his cannons will allow the Seanchan to free the damane.

 

In the other three societies in which we have significant insight into the lives of channelers, we know that the women are restrained by social structure (the Oaths, the cultural prohibition against Wise Ones participating in battle, the strictly defined command structure of the Athan Miere). It is unlikely that such a structure would spontaneously arise were the Seanchan to suddenly free the damane, so they need something else to insure that they don't revert back to the continent's original state (warring Aes Sedai vying for power). The foxhead medallion provides a unique solution to this problem. I see this playing out in one of two ways:

 

a) The Seanchan require all channelers in Seanchan territory to wear a copy of Elayne's flawed medallion, preventing them from channeling.

b) The Seanchan make copies of Mat's original medallion available to all Seanchan citizens, granting them immunity to weaves.

 

I find b) to be significantly more likely, primarily because a) seems to be unenforceable. The two disadvantages to b) are that you have to produce millions of Ter'angreal and channelers can still drop a rock on your head. Fortunately, the Seanchan already have a booming Ter'angreal industry from producing a'dam. The second problem will be addressed later.

 

The Seanchan armies rely on the firepower than damane provide, and that is not an advantage that they will easily give up. In a stroke of luck, Mat has just discovered gunpowder, an invention that will make the damane obsolete. Cannon are capable of being every bit as devastating as damane (particularly given that damane cannot form a circle), and they can be made in much greater numbers. From Aviendha's visions, we know that personal firearms are right around the corner (these will negate the rock on your head issue from above). The Seanchan way of waging war is about to become extinct. The proliferation of gunpowder will make the damane unnecessary from a military perspective.

 

In conclusion, I believe that Rand will be able to trade the knowledge of Mat's medallion and cannon in exchange for a promise from Tuon to begin the process of freeing the damane (presumably Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders immediately, with the native Seanchan slowly integrated back into society after the Last Battle).

 

Thoughts?

 

Interesting line of thought. From Aviendha vision we get the impression that caravanners have flint lock rifles within 4? generations. So the proliferation of gunpowder weapons does spread as expected.

 

Also from her vision it seems like the main reasons for the conflict between the Aiel Nation and the Seanchan is:

 

1) Aiel not knowing life without conflict

2) Seanchan still having wise ones collared (if I remember correctly this is one of the main reasons for the declaration of war)

 

There will definately have to be a compromise for the Seanchan to ally with the other Nations. How Rand accomplishes this is certainly up for debate. The damane / suldame issue will certainly have to be resolved eventually as their current Empress is a channeller.

[nleseul]

There has to be a major defeat in the very close future for them. Possibly an assault on the White Tower, rebuffed by everyone else. Tuon will never bow to Rand until that happened. As it is she considers herself superior to the Dragon Reborn.

 

I don't think there's any need for a giant confrontation between Rand and the Seanchan where they get humbled. Since Rand seems to have found Artur Hawkwing's sword somewhere, he has the perfect "I'm sorry" gift for Fortuona the next time he meets her.

[cuchulain klepto]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

[TigerGamer]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

 

WHOA, dude, never thought of that scenario. That is an AWESOMELY awesome theory

[Bob T Dwarf]

There has to be a major defeat in the very close future for them. Possibly an assault on the White Tower, rebuffed by everyone else. Tuon will never bow to Rand until that happened. As it is she considers herself superior to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Well...... seems like everybody considers themselves superior to the Dragon Reborn, so she's no Lone Ranger.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

Interesting idea. Certainly gets around the who submits to whom scenario.

 

Personally, I thought we'd see more of that kind of thing by now. There do need to be a series of Light setbacks before the Big Dustup if there is ever going to be any suspense about the outcome. I figured this book would be "The Empire Strikes Back" volume, and it wasn't, so...

[Exy]

I'd certainly rather see them humbled, especially in preference to the possible future Aviendha saw in Rhuidean. A world that is entirely part of the Seanchan empire is a pretty big bummer of a future.

[Braden]

I'd certainly rather see them humbled, especially in preference to the possible future Aviendha saw in Rhuidean. A world that is entirely part of the Seanchan empire is a pretty big bummer of a future.

 

Thats not the impression I got from Aviendhas visions. Well not after reading them all.

 

1st vision: Aiel people are essentially scavengers and completely broken (people have flintlock weapons)

 

2nd vision: Aiel people are routed in one of their holds by raken and essentially give up trying to fight back and go to wander the waste, according to Seanchan demand they don't congregate anymore.

 

3rd vision: War seems to be at a stalemate. Aviendhas granddaughters love interest steals military plans from the Seanshan showing scenarios where other countries enter the fray. They use this deceitfully to get Andor to commit to the war.

 

4th vision: Aiel people decalre war on Seanchan b/c they no other way of life and/or they still have collared Aiel.

 

I am not sure the Seanchan will be humbled other then to agree to the Dragons Peace, where Rand will give everyone the ultimatum to do what he says or the world will burn.

[Hatrel]

From what I remember from Avi's future vision, it sounds like the Aiel did not participate in the "Dragon's Peace". This is why they were still battling the Seanchan in her visions and could explain why the Wise Ones were still being collared. The other nations had a shakey and tense peace with the Aiel trying to get them to help take out the Seanchan. Also it was mentioned that the "previous Empress" was understanding at least. I cannot recall exactly how it was worded but it seems that there was a time of about 12 years when the Aiel and Seanchan were not fighting. then the Aiel got bored, started fighting again, but of course they are rusty and not as good as they once were and the Seanchan wipe the Waste with them.

 

Overall, I want to see the truth of the Sul'dam get out and quickly. I do not think that it became common knowledge to Tuon did it? Someone needs to spill the beans and fast!!

[Byzantine279]

I suspect that war will never happen, read the glossary entry for the towers of midnight, its a giant clue :).

[Kidicaris]

Isn't the prophesy stating that the Dragon must kneel before the Cyrstal Throne a Seanchan thing? Perhaps the verses were corrupted by Ishamael and Rand kneeling to the Seanchan is all part in parcel of a long term plan beneficial to the Shadow.

 

It's going to be a very fun read watching new Rand face off against Tuon. I thought Rand's reunion with Egwene was too rushed, and ultimately unsatisfactory. Maybe BS will find room in the last book to let us savor Rand's triumph instead of feeling like we're reading a mental checklist of events.

1) Tuon seems calm

2) Rand enter, also calm.

3) Rand declares "blah blah blah"

4) Guards shuffle at the way Rand speaks directly to the Empress, May She Live Forever.

5) Tuon fights aura of awesome.

6) Fingers twitch, Seliucia jiggles

7) Tuon succumbs to dreamy blue grey eyes of wisdom.

8) Treaty is created. Stamp, Signed, Sealed.

9) Traveling, first class, to TG.

[Exy]

I'd certainly rather see them humbled, especially in preference to the possible future Aviendha saw in Rhuidean. A world that is entirely part of the Seanchan empire is a pretty big bummer of a future.

 

Thats not the impression I got from Aviendhas visions. Well not after reading them all.

 

1st vision: Aiel people are essentially scavengers and completely broken (people have flintlock weapons)

 

2nd vision: Aiel people are routed in one of their holds by raken and essentially give up trying to fight back and go to wander the waste, according to Seanchan demand they don't congregate anymore.

 

3rd vision: War seems to be at a stalemate. Aviendhas granddaughters love interest steals military plans from the Seanshan showing scenarios where other countries enter the fray. They use this deceitfully to get Andor to commit to the war.

 

4th vision: Aiel people decalre war on Seanchan b/c they no other way of life and/or they still have collared Aiel.

 

I am not sure the Seanchan will be humbled other then to agree to the Dragons Peace, where Rand will give everyone the ultimatum to do what he says or the world will burn.

It ends with genocide against the Aiel by the Seanchan, and IIRC in the vision after the one in which they persuade Andor to go to war (after in time, that is) it's established that the Black Tower is the only resistance in the Westlands. And since they're mining the Waste it seems they pretty much control that as well. Shara is possibly not under Seanchan control but everywhere else in the world apparently is.

 

A future in which the Seanchan control the world, genocide the Aiel, and are undoubtedly collaring more and more women channelers is a pretty grim one.

[joshua]

What passages tell us rand has hawkwing's sword? And how the hell did I miss that? That's awesome!