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I just don't want Rand to have to kneel to the Empress. It wont be a sign of humility on Rand's part but rather it will be adding fuel to the fire that is Imperial arrogance.

I agree completely. If for no other reason than that it can't happen, they're already arrogant enough.

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The original empress was the one to order "the Return". The arrogance may not completely be Touns after all not only did she seeks to learn about the new world by hiding her identity. Toun also married a "commoner", namely Mat. Already Toun's arrogance's being blunted by her exposures to different ways of doing things. The whole Mat and Tuon circus was exposing her to not only looking at commoners, but also unchained damanes and Aes Sedais.

Toun's Argument about "I don't have to channel" is ultimately a lie and arrogant boast. As Nynaeve first learned from Moraine in the first book,"The Eye of the World", channeling is like breathing. Willard and those that don't channel often become sick and die horrible deaths. For this reason I believe Toun's final goal in the books is to come to terms with this part of her self and her empire. I still believe that if the Seanchan are left alone they will ultimately "unchain" that population. Remember, it's a fear of "the Breaking" and Artur Hawkwings owe fears that created the need to "chain" Aes Sedai. Not some we must control "weapons of Mass destruction" argument.

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The original empress was the one to order "the Return". The arrogance may not completely be Touns after all not only did she seeks to learn about the new world by hiding her identity. Toun also married a "commoner", namely Mat. Already Toun's arrogance's being blunted by her exposures to different ways of doing things. The whole Mat and Tuon circus was exposing her to not only looking at commoners, but also unchained damanes and Aes Sedais.

Toun's Argument about "I don't have to channel" is ultimately a lie and arrogant boast. As Nynaeve first learned from Moraine in the first book,"The Eye of the World", channeling is like breathing. Willard and those that don't channel often become sick and die horrible deaths. For this reason I believe Toun's final goal in the books is to come to terms with this part of her self and her empire. I still believe that if the Seanchan are left alone they will ultimately "unchain" that population. Remember, it's a fear of "the Breaking" and Artur Hawkwings owe fears that created the need to "chain" Aes Sedai. Not some we must control "weapons of Mass destruction" argument.

 

It's actually only sparkers that die of the waisting sickness, but your point is still philosophically valid.

 

Tuon is right that she does not HAVE to channel (otherwise, a sul'dam would never last their entire life without becoming damaene.) Some still do (I'm trying to remember the book exactly, but it was during the escape from Ebou Dar arc - I'm going to say APoD but maybe thats a little late...) where Bethamin mentions that she had to go through testing when she became sul'dam once every five years and "passed by failing each time".

 

So they do not ALWAYS channel, and usually only seasoned sul'dam begin seeing the weaves. Remember, sul'dam are learners so they are comparable to the women in Randland who could go to the White Tower to learn if they wanted but can choose to do so or not.

 

Because sul'dam work with the power, however, the temptation has to be there despite the cultural taboo. If and when Tuon touches saidar for herself, it will then become "like breathing" and inevitable.

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If and when Tuon touches saidar for herself, it will then become "like breathing" and inevitable.

I think like Suldam she won't try and touch it by choice. However what if an Aes Sedai linked with her? Moraine linked with Egwene (and Nyn.) back in the EotW in Malkier to hide them. If an AS linked with Tuon whilst she was 'a pampered prisoner', odds are she'd end up getting Tuon hooked to the point of then not being able to stop channeling.

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If and when Tuon touches saidar for herself, it will then become "like breathing" and inevitable.

I think like Suldam she won't try and touch it by choice. However what if an Aes Sedai linked with her? Moraine linked with Egwene (and Nyn.) back in the EotW in Malkier to hide them. If an AS linked with Tuon whilst she was 'a pampered prisoner', odds are she'd end up getting Tuon hooked to the point of then not being able to stop channeling.

 

I just reread that scene in TEotW a few days ago, and I was surprised at the implication that Moiraine linked with Egwene and Nynaeve there. It's something I hadn't picked up on before (granted, I haven't read TEotW in ages). I suspect that Moiraine guiding Egwene through her first channelling was actually just linking; the experienced channeller controls the flow of saidar so the girl doesn't harm herself.

 

-- dwn

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Mazrim Taim did something quite similar in LOC without linking. And since, as far as we know, the process of linking requires conscious control of the Power, it seems unlikely Moiraine was linking with Egwene or Nynaeve in EOTW.

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I am surprised that no one on this thread has mentioned one particular idea of what might cause Tuon to channel her first time.

 

What caused Rand to channel first?

 

According to Moir it was "wanting something more than you had ever wanted anything in your life." To protect Egwene when he thought Bela might fall behind on the TR escape. Not even fear for his own life on Winter's Night was as strong as his desire to save her.

 

I predict the Fortuona will channel to save Mat's life. They will encounter each other during the 2nd Tower raid. One (or several) of her troops (maybe another Bloodknife) will be attacking him and unable to hear her command to stop. He will take a serious wound, she may or may not channel to kill the soldier/s, but I do think that one of her first weaves will be to Heal his wounds (remember she loved the fact that damanae had been taught the Healing weaves, so she has seen them and her fascination with it could be foreshadowing).

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Moiraine and Rand are both sparkers, though. Learners need to be taught how to find the True Source first; it doesn't just come to them. Though Tuon is such a virtuoso sul'dam that she might be getting close (she can see the weaves and everything).

 

In any case I highly doubt she'll be on the front lines of a war in the Tower.

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Toun being such an advanced sul'dam was exactly my reasoning and we remember how the 2 former sul'dams started channeling with Teslyn and Jolene, I know first one then the other, but I don't have the book in front of me and I can't remember which one started it. And I tend to equate in my head Toun's sul'daming to be on a level with or near theirs, so I figure she is close to doing it on her own (if she has something that serves as enough of an emotional impact on her). I'll have to find my copy of KoD, and look up that scene, but I'm almost certain that Bethamin spontaneously channeled and that was why one of the AS has her up in the air when Mat came in. **

 

As far as being on the front lines of a WT war. I think she will go herself for a couple of reasons.

 

1. The previous raid was considered a "complete success" which can easily translate to (in an arrogant mind) "no real threat"

 

2. They will be using Traveling, not fliers. She can have one of the sul'dams hold a gateway open to provide a quick escape for the Empress

 

3. In her arrogance, I think she will want to go there, to be seen going there. Because of how focused her thoughts are on exuding power and authority. Walking the halls of a subjugated WT seems to fit right in with increasing that image and aura of power.

 

I understand the doubts about any Major Ruler purposely heading into a battle like that, especially an Empress of Seanchan. But it's just my guess and I do think that there has been enough set up to make it plausible. I may or may not be wrong, we'll find out in about 16 more months, but I will fight for plausible.

 

**Bethamin tried to spank Joline with Seta's help, Edesina wrapped both up w/ air. Bethamin channeled and had "sparks dancing over the three of us." Next paragraph is all of Bethamin explaining how she didn't mean to channel, she thought they were gonna kill her but she didn't mean to channel. That would indicate that learners that have had long experience w/ power can initiate in a manner similar to "sparking". It was after all of this that Joline started training Bethamin. Seta started training later. KoD, 'A Cold Medallion', pg. 204-205

 

 

 

edited to add footnote

Edited by Ishadar
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For Tuon, I agree with a caveat, firstly, the biggest blow- to her- would be for her to get Collared, we KNOW it would work on her, the question would be,who does the collaring?

 

Graendal is putting out feelers/webs around Tuon prior to the end of the book, could Galgan be one of her webstrands?

 

Galgan is shown- in Tuons POV to have inquired about assasinating her, so he is ambitious and if he found out that all suldam Can be collared, would not that be the perfect way to go about becoming emperor? she IS marath'damane.

 

 

however having Matt Dying in front of her eyes would also be an excellent way for her to change her POV on collaring channellers-if she- since she knows the healing weaves- in her desperation for him to live, heals Matt, and imo could potentially be the best way to go about having them link up/get back together. it would be funny/cool if matt got the warder bond at the same time too...

Edited by Dysaster
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That would hilarious if Mat became a Warder but I doubt it, at least in that hypothetical situation. It may very well go down like that but I believe Setalle must be healed for her to make the final leap. Else why put Setalle(she who is no longer) or whatever if not to be healed and show lady luck that AS aren't evil. I just relistened to Suian's escape after stilling last night. Her POV, she reached and felt only emptiness. It doesn't say anything about reaching toward a glow or anything. I am 110% certain that they are the same.

As to Artur Hawkwings' fears about channelers, I think that was Ishamael manipulations.

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For Tuon, I agree with a caveat, firstly, the biggest blow- to her- would be for her to get Collared, we KNOW it would work on her, the question would be,who does the collaring?

 

Graendal is putting out feelers/webs around Tuon prior to the end of the book, could Galgan be one of her webstrands?

 

Galgan is shown- in Tuons POV to have inquired about assasinating her, so he is ambitious and if he found out that all suldam Can be collared, would not that be the perfect way to go about becoming emperor? she IS marath'damane.

 

 

however having Matt Dying in front of her eyes would also be an excellent way for her to change her POV on collaring channellers-if she- since she knows the healing weaves- in her desperation for him to live, heals Matt, and imo could potentially be the best way to go about having them link up/get back together. it would be funny/cool if matt got the warder bond at the same time too...

 

Actually we have a RJ quote to the effect that Tuon hadn;t done enough sul'damming to be held by the a'dam. That was circa KoD.

I don't think she's done much since, not for the months she was with Mat or afterwords when she's taking the throne.

So, she may still pass the a'dam, even if somebody has the imagination to chuck one at her.

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Even better yet is if Eggy or Mat slaps a collar on her and forces HER to bow to Rand. (Yes, I know Mat can't channel, but he could put it on there when she didn't expect it for Eggy or Nynaeve, or possibly Alivia.)

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In Aviendha's vision of the future, her daughter (or granddaughter, can't remember) thought that the Empress during Tarmon Gai'din was reasonable so that's promising, but after that it seems like Saenchan is reunited under some jerk who somehow gets Rand to bow before her and everything turns into a bloody disaster. (and it seems like Mat would be dead too) I REALLY hope none of that happens. >.> I'd be annoyed.

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Actually we have a RJ quote to the effect that Tuon hadn;t done enough sul'damming to be held by the a'dam. That was circa KoD.

I don't think she's done much since, not for the months she was with Mat or afterwords when she's taking the throne.

So, she may still pass the a'dam, even if somebody has the imagination to chuck one at her.

 

Where exactly did you get this quote from?

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For Tuon, I agree with a caveat, firstly, the biggest blow- to her- would be for her to get Collared, we KNOW it would work on her, the question would be,who does the collaring?

 

Graendal is putting out feelers/webs around Tuon prior to the end of the book, could Galgan be one of her webstrands?

 

Galgan is shown- in Tuons POV to have inquired about assasinating her, so he is ambitious and if he found out that all suldam Can be collared, would not that be the perfect way to go about becoming emperor? she IS marath'damane.

 

 

however having Matt Dying in front of her eyes would also be an excellent way for her to change her POV on collaring channellers-if she- since she knows the healing weaves- in her desperation for him to live, heals Matt, and imo could potentially be the best way to go about having them link up/get back together. it would be funny/cool if matt got the warder bond at the same time too...

 

Actually we have a RJ quote to the effect that Tuon hadn;t done enough sul'damming to be held by the a'dam. That was circa KoD.

I don't think she's done much since, not for the months she was with Mat or afterwords when she's taking the throne.

So, she may still pass the a'dam, even if somebody has the imagination to chuck one at her.

 

Is this the passage you are thinking of?

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

As you see, it doesn't say anything about Tuon specifically.

Edited by cuchulain klepto
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For Tuon, I agree with a caveat, firstly, the biggest blow- to her- would be for her to get Collared, we KNOW it would work on her, the question would be,who does the collaring?

 

Graendal is putting out feelers/webs around Tuon prior to the end of the book, could Galgan be one of her webstrands?

 

Galgan is shown- in Tuons POV to have inquired about assasinating her, so he is ambitious and if he found out that all suldam Can be collared, would not that be the perfect way to go about becoming emperor? she IS marath'damane.

 

 

however having Matt Dying in front of her eyes would also be an excellent way for her to change her POV on collaring channellers-if she- since she knows the healing weaves- in her desperation for him to live, heals Matt, and imo could potentially be the best way to go about having them link up/get back together. it would be funny/cool if matt got the warder bond at the same time too...

 

Actually we have a RJ quote to the effect that Tuon hadn;t done enough sul'damming to be held by the a'dam. That was circa KoD.

I don't think she's done much since, not for the months she was with Mat or afterwords when she's taking the throne.

So, she may still pass the a'dam, even if somebody has the imagination to chuck one at her.

 

Is this the passage you are thinking of?

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

As you see, it doesn't say anything about Tuon specifically.

No. Luckers quoted another passage, post KoD (maybe book tour/ RJ's blog) where he specifically confirmed that Tuon would not be held by the a'dam.

Sorry don't have time to look for it - I'm sure Luckers/ Terez or one of the quotes experts can find it.

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Registered to these forums for the sole purpose of making my thoughts on the Seanchan known: I hate them. I'd rather see the shadow win than see them in control of more than an empty barn.

 

I was hoping Rand would fall to the shadow (I knew it wouldn't happen, but I can hope) just to see him send trollocs to eat the high lords.

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For Tuon, I agree with a caveat, firstly, the biggest blow- to her- would be for her to get Collared, we KNOW it would work on her, the question would be,who does the collaring?

 

Graendal is putting out feelers/webs around Tuon prior to the end of the book, could Galgan be one of her webstrands?

 

Galgan is shown- in Tuons POV to have inquired about assasinating her, so he is ambitious and if he found out that all suldam Can be collared, would not that be the perfect way to go about becoming emperor? she IS marath'damane.

 

 

however having Matt Dying in front of her eyes would also be an excellent way for her to change her POV on collaring channellers-if she- since she knows the healing weaves- in her desperation for him to live, heals Matt, and imo could potentially be the best way to go about having them link up/get back together. it would be funny/cool if matt got the warder bond at the same time too...

 

Actually we have a RJ quote to the effect that Tuon hadn;t done enough sul'damming to be held by the a'dam. That was circa KoD.

I don't think she's done much since, not for the months she was with Mat or afterwords when she's taking the throne.

So, she may still pass the a'dam, even if somebody has the imagination to chuck one at her.

 

Is this the passage you are thinking of?

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

As you see, it doesn't say anything about Tuon specifically.

No. Luckers quoted another passage, post KoD (maybe book tour/ RJ's blog) where he specifically confirmed that Tuon would not be held by the a'dam.

Sorry don't have time to look for it - I'm sure Luckers/ Terez or one of the quotes experts can find it.

 

See this thread on collaring Fortuona.

 

http://www.tarvalon.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2410

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The Seanchan in their current form need reformation obviously, but I would /cheer and /clap if they turn the White Tower to rubble.

 

I hope 90% of the Aes Sedai are on the FOM while the Seanchan Travel to the White Tower and they take the place over. Then after the meeting at FOM the Aes Sedai try to return to their White Tower and suprise, it's controlled by the Seanchan. This would be awesome and I would love to see it. Give me Egwene's POV when she realizes her precious Tower's gone, oh yes please.

 

Figure out another way to get the Seanchan to fall in line, but only after they smash those worthless Aes Sedai and their Tower to dust.

 

Oh and thanks Brandon and Robert Jordan for having Nynaeve swear on the Oath Rod when she knows it cuts her life in half yet doesn't even care about that anymore! I'll never believe Nynaeve and Elayne would swear on that criminal binder when they've stated previously that they're totally against giving up half their lives! And for that matter, I'll never believe that Aes Sedai will continue to be as an organiztion when they're competing against other channeling organizations that don't require you to give up half your life in return. That is all.

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This fixation on the word ‘slave’ as if what you call mistreatment of those in a lower class makes the slightest bit of difference is rather tiresome.

 

Truly, the Seanchan are an improvement over most.

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This fixation on the word ‘slave’ as if what you call mistreatment of those in a lower class makes the slightest bit of difference is rather tiresome.

 

Truly, the Seanchan are an improvement over most.

It's not just a word; it's a word that describes an abomination, and no matter how tired you get of hearing it, it's always going to be an abomination.

 

People rationalizing the Seanchen are just letting RJ manipulate them. RJ gives us a prophecy saying slavery isn't going to end in the timeframe of the series, and amazingly people become all cozy with slavery just because there's no chance of ending it soon. Intentional or not, this is a great illustration of how apathy works in the real world also.

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It's not just a word; it's a word that describes an abomination, and no matter how tired you get of hearing it, it's always going to be an abomination.

It's an abomination that is omnipresent in the WOT world.

 

Unless you're merely referring to the word, in which case, no, it's not really an abomination.

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