Discuss Egwene

[NetSlider]

The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

 

That's the typical Aes Sedai MO.

 

Some people claim that Aes Sedai haters won't be happy unless the Aes Sedai all end up groveling at Rand's feet. Untrue.

 

I want them groveling at the feet of every parent in Randland who lost a child to a fever, while those gifted with the ability to magically heal sat in their ivory tower.

 

Well said. As servants of all they just fail, abysmally. Servants to themselves and their own personal belief in their innate superiority a big giant success. Ugh...

 

Jen-

I think this is where the WT, Fields of Merrilor and BT plot lines are going to merge... Rand knew that Egwene would do what she has done and gather armies to her. He used her influence as Amrilyn to gather the world leaders together and I am almost certain he is going to use this to sue for peace.

 

As we know from the famous quote in ToM, "You may call me Rand Sedai". Rand considers himself the oldest Aes Sedai and not an Asha'Man. The BT is building male channellers into combatents because that is what Rand himself thought he was initially. Now that saidin is cleansed and the deeds of Asha'Man are spreading along with the knowledge that they won't go mad the AS have competition.

 

I think together the male and female AS will become the enforcers of the Dragons Peace. The WT will no longer hold the power it currently has and will become public servants. On topic of healing the sick ... I really respect the move Elayne made to solidify the Kinswomen to her in that regard.

 

I hope so, and I home even more that that tower that Elaida was building would be given to ashaman.

[DemandredFO]

Everyone who thinks people who criticize Egwene are doing her an injustice; answer me this. What was she doing tying up a Taveren in the middle of a battle. She obviously didn't intend for him to get free since she was surprised that he did. I'm sure all the DFs and Foresaken walking TAR would've left him alone. What was she doing there that was good? I await an answer from the Egwene fans.

[Alia]

Really, why does it always come down to "but, but other characters do it too!"? What does that prove exactly? And no, not everyone in the series is arrogant - for instance Loial, Min, Tam, Birgitte, Mat, etc.

 

Because people are trying to make the point that Egwene is held to a much higher standard than the other characters in the series. She is criticised for not being better than everyone else constantly. Nobody really explains why they think she actually should be better than everyone else.

No, she is criticized for not growing up.Everyone in the series is flawed but at least they are trying to get better.Egg's ONLY indication of doubting her judgment was when Gawyn laid on the floor bleeding to death.

 

 

You know- if you really read over her transition to Amyrlin youll find that she doubted herself a ton. She lived off of hope- a great deal of hope. And she told Suian to teach her everything she knew. Dont you think an arrogant person would merely say "Ok well Im here and I know everything- why do I need you?" She could have easily told Suian that Suian had failed as she was deposed and then wandered off into who-knows-what. As for Gawyn- that whole thing was poorly written. I agree with that. I also think that Sanderson was trying to write this as soon as he could with as many details and plot wrap ups that he could in the amount of words he was allotted to write it in. If you notice, this book was very fast paced and the details in some of the other books are missing.

 

Also, wow, really? We have an equal chance of Mat being Demandred? Wow, you must seriously HATE this girl to make that kind of a comparison. There are a LOT of things that are being glossed over at the moment. As I said the book is very fast paced- in fact it practically runs through a month with a lot of strings loose. For example- all that happened for a month was a few women died in the White Tower? We have absolutely NO concept of how long things are going on in this book. There is a lot most likely being left out. Also- if all the sisters of the White Tower were forced to revoke all oaths they had taken on the oath rod and then reswear the old ones, why wouldnt the oaths made to Egwene be included in that? They werent made on the oath rod but surely they are of the same nature- the same words are said in the same way. Now, I know youre going to probably state that that was just to find the Black Ajah. And you would be correct. But still- assuming that Egwene is a tyrant that wouldnt let women free of an oath that was taken to try to bind women to be trustworthy (which she shouldnt have had to do in the first place but yea....).....THAT takes a lot of hatred. Besides wasnt Merille outside the White Tower even though she was one of those whod sworn the oaths? Doesnt really sound to be like Egwenes cracking that whip at her if she is still bound.

[Alia]

Everyone who thinks people who criticize Egwene are doing her an injustice; answer me this. What was she doing tying up a Taveren in the middle of a battle. She obviously didn't intend for him to get free since she was surprised that he did. I'm sure all the DFs and Foresaken walking TAR would've left him alone. What was she doing there that was good? I await an answer from the Egwene fans.

 

Ok- Sanderson has already said she was going to send him somewhere safe. SHE HAD NO IDEA PERRIN HAD ANY ABILITY AT ALL IN THERE. In fact- Perrin had just really started to learn about the Wolf dream in the *same book*. If that battle between him and Slayer had happened before this book or hell before a few chapters into the book, he would have lost. He says that himself. She also most likely doesnt have Perrin's identity wrapped around him being Taveren- I mean how many people really do besides the people around him? Rand- yes. Of course. But even some readers may forget if the people around Perrin and Mat didnt always bring it up. Which she hasnt been in....wow how long exactly? I cant even remember. Who would have wanted someone that they considered an old friend in the middle of a battle with the Forsaken and Black Ajah? Also, remember that Egwene herself berated herself on forgetting that the Weave is not as powerful as thought in TAR. In fact, it was because she was reminded by what Perrin did that she was able to defeat the Forsaken.

[capuga]

At the very least, you have to acknowledge this:

 

If the intent was to make Egwene a sympathetic character, Jordan and Sanderson failed. She is easily the most hated WOT character, that is immediately obvious on any WOT forum. At Theoryland, threads are actually closed for something refered to as, "excessive Egwene hate." If you are an author trying to write a sympathetic sharacter, and more than half your readership hates the character, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

RJ and sanderson didnt fail. From the moment in LOC when she was raised to amyrlin and had to fight from being controlled by romanda and co to her standing up to elaida, all painted egwene as someone who is a strong character who deserves our sympathy.

 

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

 

This is the fourth or fifth time on this thread that you have dismissed all criticism of Egwene as nothing but Rand fanboyism. That is both rude and incorrect. It also does nothing to further this discussion. Many of the people above have posted valid and thoughtful reasons for their dislike of Egwene that have nothing to do with Rand. There are plenty of reasons that people find her to be an unsympathetic character. If you disagree with us or feel that we are being unfair to her than please further the conversation by actually pointing out the flaws you find in our reasoning instead of just lashing out at the "Rand fanboys".

 

Note that this is an Egwene thread and not a Rand thread. Its very possible that the same people criticizing Egwene would be equally critical of Rand on a thread about him.

[Hadilmir]

Everyone who thinks people who criticize Egwene are doing her an injustice; answer me this. What was she doing tying up a Taveren in the middle of a battle. She obviously didn't intend for him to get free since she was surprised that he did. I'm sure all the DFs and Foresaken walking TAR would've left him alone. What was she doing there that was good? I await an answer from the Egwene fans.

 

Since you asked so kindly, I'll reply in turn. (Yes, this is targeted at the people who can't seem to use the word Egwene in a sentence without calling her a b*tch or using caps) At this point Egwene knew three things-

 

1. People cannot exit the Dream at the present time

 

2. There are incredibly dangerous people hunting her

 

3. Perrin, her friend who always tried to protect her, should not be able to enter T'A'R as he is not a channeller and is thus likely very inexperienced has only been seen by Egwene once(?) in T'A'R and because of that should logically be considered inexperienced (As per Cyf and David's posts)

 

What option does she have except tying him up and hiding him? If he follows her he will probably confront Mesaana and get killed trying to protect her. She can't send him out of the Dream due to the Dreamspike. Leaving any room for him to escape will cause him to try to protect her and suffer Nicola's fate. She does not know Perrin is a BAMF, and how could she? Most of the anti-Egwene sentiments I've seen are caused by readers thinking she should know things that only the reader is aware of.

 

 

*Also, I'd like to agree with Mark Grayson's last post. If you cannot argue for Egwene without bashing the Egwene-haters you're likely doing more harm to the pro-Egwene side than good.

[Cyf]

3. Perrin, her friend who always tried to protect her, should not be able to enter T'A'R as he is not a channeller and is thus likely very inexperienced

 

Just to be a slight pedant: Egwene knows that non-channelers can enter T'A'R -- some of the Wise Ones can. :) But yes, this bit is good otherwise. :)

[David Selig]

Not to mention that Egwene has already seen Perrin in T'A'R before back in TDR, Chapter 27.

 

Of course, since this is WoT, they never talked about this meeting when they got together in Tear.

[Erunion]

Remember, Perrin is the only Male in the series who doesn't channel that Egwene has seen in TAR. She has seen him twice, once in TDR (which was a one power induced entrance into the world of dreams, if you'll remember correctly, so even if they did talk about it, Eggy wouldn't have figured out that Perrin was a dreamwalker) and once here. The only people that she knows can enter Tel'aran'rhiod naturally are women. The only men she has seen in TAR are channelers/heroes of the horn, both of whom are special cases. Therefore, she has no reason to expect that Perrin will be able to handle himself in that particular fight, so figures that hiding him is her best shot at saving his life.

She was wrong, but she made a decent decision with the information that she had.

[Cyf]

The only men she has seen in TAR are channelers/heroes of the horn, both of whom are special cases. Therefore, she has no reason to expect that Perrin will be able to handle himself in that particular fight, so figures that hiding him is her best shot at saving his life.

She was wrong, but she made a decent decision with the information that she had.

 

Again, being a pedant: she actually does know men can enter T'A'R, the Wise Ones tell her it's rare in men (how rare is open to the reader, I honestly wonder if the rareness is because the WOs refuse to see it in men, they aren't as bad as AS but are very jealous of 'their' areas of influence.

[Jillain Sanche]

And the whole thing was a "set up" for Perrin to reinstruct her in the very lesson she needed shortly thereafter to defeat Mesaana.

 

But, when she saw him, Big Surprise it's Perrin, and she had to quickly "think on her feet" during combat.

 

The reader is not really supposed to hate her, but as with several characters in WoT, we know more than they do, and we are collectively dismayed when they make wrong decisions (for generally quite human reasons) and often as they have not been in communication with their old friends and allies.

[Hadilmir]

Again, being a pedant...

You're on a roll today, aren't you?

[Cyf]

You're on a roll today, aren't you?

 

Pretty much. :) Little errors lead to bigger ones. Like the folks in another thread still insisting Verin said the letter was important, when she didn't. :)

[Erunion]

I'd forgotten that.

Egwene would likely forget it too, all things considered...

[didymos]

Eggys dream in LoC:

 

"Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step."

 

It seems kind of strange that she has either forgotten or refuses to acknowledge it.

 

Why strange that she forgot it? People forget things. I know: she always remembers her dreams. But that's only immediately after having them. I don't see why she couldn't forget them later, just like any of a million other things she's likely forgotten. It would have been nice if it had been referenced, but I don't see it as a problem. Besides, it could be that Brandon is saving that moment where she remembers it for the next book. Not sure it'll help much if she does: the narrative there makes it clear she thought that was a rather bad dream.

 

 

 

 

She is a Dreamer. That's some pretty explicit foretelling and I'm curious as to whether she forgot the dream or came up with some interpretation that doesn't result in Rand breaking the seals. If she has persuaded herself that it was just a 'bad dream' and refuses to reconsider after Rand tells her what he plans to do, well then...?

 

Personally, I don't think she saw it as particularly informative. Rand walking towards Shayol Ghul, and as he does, the DO grows ever closer to freedom. OK....everyone kinda knew that already. And, the dream doesn't show Rand deliberately breaking them. He's apparently completely unaware that with each step he takes, a seal is broken. Plus in the past, when something big happened they found shattered seals: one at the Eye, two at Falme. The one exception was the one found in Tanchico, which just broke on its own somewhere between Samara and Salidar (which she wouldn't learn about for quite awhile). And, at that point, she well knew that the remaining seals were extremely weak. So, I can see this being something Egwene didn't place much importance on at the time because it didn't seem to provide any information that she could use or depict something she could do anything about, and simply forgot it during all the subsequent crap that happened. There doesn't need to be a special explanation for it not coming up. Plenty of her other prophetic dreams, including ones she had on that night, have not come up in her POVs either. Most of them, in fact. Again: it'd be nice if they all did and had some direct influence on her actions or thoughts, but it's not necessary. It's also not really practical, as she's had a hell of a lot of them.

[Strykr017]

I guess the main thing that bugs me about Egwene is just how perfect she seems to be. She's incredibly talented and powerful with the power. That's fine - many other characters are. Yet she also has somehow reached the point (in less than two years) where she can completely outsmart people who literally have a hundred times more experience in politics than she does. She is always one step ahead of everyone.

 

As a reader I find her "perfection" to be quite irritating. She just seems to be far too good at far too much. It's a bit different with other characters, even with Rand. We see Rand really screw things up and we see that he's far from perfect. He makes a lot of mistakes. Egwene? Not so much. It's like we're constantly reminded that even when she's making mistakes or suffering she's better than everyone else. It doesn't help that she often seems to say things to people then do the complete opposite herself.

[WhiskyJack]

Nyn: Mother we should ask Rand..

Egwene: This is WT's problem..

 

That's sums her up pretty well..Imagine if Perrin had not ended up in Tar Valon..Now HOW LUCKY Egwene was there..

[right]

Nyn: Mother we should ask Rand..

Egwene: This is WT's problem..

 

That's sums up her pretty well..Imagine if Perrin had not ended up in Tar Valon..Now HOW LUCKY Egwene was there..

 

There are no coincidences when taveren are involved...

 

Another thing mentioned earlier:

 

As a reader I find her "perfection" to be quite irritating

 

Maybe she's just had better advisors/teachers/information resources and is doing a job that's been done before.

[smileyman]

I will say this for Egwene--Siuan Sanche thinks that she is a great Amyrlin. I think Egwene has a great deal of promise. I've been disgusted with the way she acted throughout ToM, but her plotline in TGS was one of the best of the series and I thought she made great strides there. I think that her plan to have the WO, Windfinders, and AS learn from each other is also a good one. Even if her motives are less than pure (which her POV doesn't indicate one way or the other), the actual result will be a world where the channelers learn from each other and hopefully become more open minded as they interact with other cultures.

 

Her decision to allow any woman who can channel, regardless of age, to come to the White Tower is also a good one. Having 150 year old women become Aes Sedai will reduce the amount of indoctrination that happens when you take a 12 or 13 year old girl and raiser her up among women who are convinced that they're the end all and be all of human existence.

 

Her attitude towards the other Aes Sedai is also a large improvement over previous Amyrlins.

 

Sadly it seems like she's still not able to see men, and especially her childhood friends, as adults who have gone through their own learning process and grown as people and leaders. Her entire POV in the Hall scene is a disgusting example of that, even before Rand opens his mouth. I do hope she gets over that because she could be one of the greatest Amyrlin Seats of all time.

 

So, while there are many things to dislike about Egwene, there are also some promising signs for her future development. After all, Rand was turning into a pretty unlikeable character until TGS, so maybe Egwene will have her Zen moment in AMOL.

 

As a side note I'm feeling pretty confident that Egwene has some ta'veren in her. Maybe not full-fledged like the three boys but some--how else to explain a rural girl rising to the Amrylin seat in less than two years? Also how else to explain her complete lack of reaction to Rand's ta'veren nature, when the other Aes Sedai were almost cowering in their seats?

 

True, a strong person can resist (Tuon did, though I think she'd have a much tougher time of that now), but there were no indications from Egwene's POV that she felt anything at all.

[Hadilmir]

Here are 6 good (In my own opinion of course) reasons why I see Egwene as the foremost non-ta'veren contributor for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

1. She has thrown down a completely anti-Dragon Amyrlinship and been raised as, at the very least, a reluctant follower of the Dragon Reborn. Near the end it became clear Elaida would never follow Rand in any plan whatsoever, but there is still a large probability Egwene can be convinced to trust Rand if more than five minutes are spent discussing his plans.

 

2. She has united the strongest channeling organization in the Westlands. Given the additional Novices and Accepted she (wisely) allowed to join the White Tower it now outnumbers even the Kin and all of its full members are of a much higher average strength than the Kin. Some may argue that this point is negated by involving herself in their petty politics, but if she is to overpower them and silence their squabbles she must be able to outmaneuver them politically. Note her most recent agreement with the Hall, she has isolated the Dragon Reborn from them and prevented the worst possibility of the Aes Sedai arguing what to do about the Dragon Reborn until after the DO has won.

 

3. She has done something that only Rand, the bloody messiah figure, has also attempted (purging the High Lords). She purged the Aes Sedai of all Darkfriends, making them the only organization solely dedicated to the Light (Perhaps to themselves first until someone, hopefully Nynaeve, puts the smack down on them). Even the Band is likely to have infiltrators now, ...and the Wolf Guard, ...and the Wise Ones, ...and the Kin.

 

4. Not only has she amassed the strongest purely Light oriented channeling force, but she also now has under her command around 100,000 trained troops. That is a significant force for one city-state, and rivals all other contributions from any Westland country. The Tower Guard will not be unrepresented in the Last Battle.

 

5. She has attempt to prevent the Shadow's access to one of the largest collections of 'angreal in the world. Something the previous administration did not even put much effort into.

 

6. Egwene is one of the only non-ta'veren characters to even attempt to unite vastly differing cultures for a common cause. Forces with similar interests are much more effective on the battlefield in unison than ones that only despise each other as the Sea Folk, Wise Ones, and Aes Sedai did and still do. The unity of that promise will make the Light's channeller's much more effective than had they fought without.

 

 

As for her potentially not allying with Rand in the Last Battle, it is a possibility, but there is no understandable reasoning to suspect she will not at least aid in the physical battle that will take place, which will be almost as important.

 

Onto the point that every seems to make about her hypocritical views on the Fourth Oath- An Oath of Fealty is not binding in the way everyone is twisting it to. Traditionally an Oath of Fealty only requires the swearer place no other leader before the one they are swearing allegiance to. As Beonin so clearly pointed out, if you do not accept the one you swore fealty to as a leader any longer you can do as you will. An Aes Sedai doesn't have to accept the Amyrlin's orders unless they are decrees, so the only thing binding the swearers in this case is their will to make Egwene know they accept her as their leader so she will not expose secrets. Basically, to keep from being blackmailed they have to atleast put on a show of being under her command. That is it, an order can be shrugged off, but betraying the Amyrlin cannot.

 

 

*Tear this apart as you will while I'm sleeping, I'll argue tomorrow.

[smileyman]

Onto the point that every seems to make about her hypocritical views on the Fourth Oath- An Oath of Fealty is not binding in the way everyone is twisting it to. Traditionally an Oath of Fealty only requires the swearer place no other leader before the one they are swearing allegiance to. As Beonin so clearly pointed out, if you do not accept the one you swore fealty to as a leader any longer you can do as you will. An Aes Sedai doesn't have to accept the Amyrlin's orders unless they are decrees, so the only thing binding the swearers in this case is their will to make Egwene know they accept her as their leader so she will not expose secrets. Basically, to keep from being blackmailed they have to atleast put on a show of being under her command. That is it, an order can be shrugged off, but betraying the Amyrlin cannot.

 

 

*Tear this apart as you will while I'm sleeping, I'll argue tomorrow.

 

I'll address the other points later. I've got no problems with swearing oathes of fealty. It's a common medieval practice, and a common practice in Randland. You swear to follow your Lord/Lady and in return they promise to protect you. What I have issues with is Egwene's hypocrisy in this regard--chewing out one group of Sisters for requiring an oath of fealty, and then doing the same thing herself.

 

Beyond that I have a problem with using an Oath Rod to do it, because that's irreversible. That person is committed until they die, and if their liege turns out to not be honorable, they can't choose to swear to another person, or undo their swearing.

[dwn]

Onto the point that every seems to make about her hypocritical views on the Fourth Oath- An Oath of Fealty is not binding in the way everyone is twisting it to. Traditionally an Oath of Fealty only requires the swearer place no other leader before the one they are swearing allegiance to. As Beonin so clearly pointed out, if you do not accept the one you swore fealty to as a leader any longer you can do as you will. An Aes Sedai doesn't have to accept the Amyrlin's orders unless they are decrees, so the only thing binding the swearers in this case is their will to make Egwene know they accept her as their leader so she will not expose secrets. Basically, to keep from being blackmailed they have to atleast put on a show of being under her command. That is it, an order can be shrugged off, but betraying the Amyrlin cannot.

 

 

*Tear this apart as you will while I'm sleeping, I'll argue tomorrow.

 

I'll address the other points later. I've got no problems with swearing oathes of fealty. It's a common medieval practice, and a common practice in Randland. You swear to follow your Lord/Lady and in return they promise to protect you. What I have issues with is Egwene's hypocrisy in this regard--chewing out one group of Sisters for requiring an oath of fealty, and then doing the same thing herself.

 

Beyond that I have a problem with using an Oath Rod to do it, because that's irreversible. That person is committed until they die, and if their liege turns out to not be honorable, they can't choose to swear to another person, or undo their swearing.

 

Assuming you meant the oath binding Meidani and the other ferrets, Egwene's major problem was that it was enforced using the Oath Rod, which is tantamount to Compulsion. The oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience, and certainly not compelled.

 

Oaths sworn on the Oath Rod are certainly not irreversible. We've seen many many examples of women being released. Indeed, every Aes Sedai in the Tower has been released and re-sworn at this point.

 

-- dwn

[Cyf]

Once again, Egwene cannot be ta'veren. Siuan and others with the ability to see them would have commented on it. Egwene got to where she is due many reasons, from innate power and good advisors to Rand, a ta'veren, likely needing her there.

[Sharaman]

Onto the point that every seems to make about her hypocritical views on the Fourth Oath- An Oath of Fealty is not binding in the way everyone is twisting it to. Traditionally an Oath of Fealty only requires the swearer place no other leader before the one they are swearing allegiance to. As Beonin so clearly pointed out, if you do not accept the one you swore fealty to as a leader any longer you can do as you will. An Aes Sedai doesn't have to accept the Amyrlin's orders unless they are decrees, so the only thing binding the swearers in this case is their will to make Egwene know they accept her as their leader so she will not expose secrets. Basically, to keep from being blackmailed they have to atleast put on a show of being under her command. That is it, an order can be shrugged off, but betraying the Amyrlin cannot.

 

 

*Tear this apart as you will while I'm sleeping, I'll argue tomorrow.

 

I'll address the other points later. I've got no problems with swearing oathes of fealty. It's a common medieval practice, and a common practice in Randland. You swear to follow your Lord/Lady and in return they promise to protect you. What I have issues with is Egwene's hypocrisy in this regard--chewing out one group of Sisters for requiring an oath of fealty, and then doing the same thing herself.

 

Beyond that I have a problem with using an Oath Rod to do it, because that's irreversible. That person is committed until they die, and if their liege turns out to not be honorable, they can't choose to swear to another person, or undo their swearing.

 

Assuming you meant the oath binding Meidani and the other ferrets, Egwene's major problem was that it was enforced using the Oath Rod, which is tantamount to Compulsion. The oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience, and certainly not compelled.

 

Oaths sworn on the Oath Rod are certainly not irreversible. We've seen many many examples of women being released. Indeed, every Aes Sedai in the Tower has been released and re-sworn at this point.

 

-- dwn

An oath sworn by an AS who has already sworn the first oath is pretty binding.

Not easy for her to unswear.

Just as true for the women bound to Rand thanks to Verin's persuasion.

[David Selig]

he oaths of fealty sworn by Egwene's cabal were coerced, which may still be distasteful, but they were oaths of support, not obedience

 

Not really.

 

This is the oath Theodrin swore to Egwene:

"Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I, Theodrin Dabei, swear fealty to you, Egwene al'Vere, to faithfully serve and obey on pain of my life and honor."

 

We don't know the exact wording of Nisao's oath, which Egwene blackmailed her into, but we know that it was even stronger:

"Beneath the Light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation. ..." Not the same wording as Faolain and Theodrin, but every scrap as strong. More. By the Three Oaths, no Aes Sedai could speak a vow she did not mean.

 

Even without the First Oath, those are the type of oaths people in Randland keep at all costs except if they are Darkfriends.

 

So it's the height of hypocrisy from Egwene to be indignant at Elaida and the BA hunters when she had done what amount for the same thing earlier. But this is typical Egwene - hypocrite to the core.