Discuss Egwene

[randsc]

I recall her acknowledging his suggestions about Sisters bonding Warders was sensible and planning to bring the idea up to the Hall.

 

And that moment was the one, and I mean the only one, moment in the book where she appeared to have a clue.

 

Gawyn's quote about how the men fighting and dying are making some pretty intimate choices was basically hie best moment in the series.

[randsc]

If your spouse left you, and you wanted to reconcile, would you send a text message? Much less one that said, "I order you to come back, right now!"?

 

He isn't her spouse.

 

She instructed Silviana to ask.

 

She shouldn't have. That's the point. This simply isn't something that a person with a normal sense of propriety and empathy would delegate.

 

10-15 seconds is all it would take to write a letter like Silviana's, only without the grade-A bitchiness.

 

Look, people shouldn't get too worked up about this whole thing. Like her attitude generally, the letters existed for a reason. They were a plot device that allowed the last-minute saving-of-the-day on the part of Gawyn.

 

But let's not pretend that the letters would ever, in the real world in that situation within a relationship, be justified.

[Kahlika]

Does the PA sign his or her name to the gift? Because as I recall, the note was signed by Silviana as Keeper.

 

But even if it wasn't, a note for a departed SO to please return does strike me as far more personal than a birthday gift, yes.

 

Generally the PA will buy a gift/card, have it wrapped, get the boss to sign the card, and then organise delivery if it's required (e.g. flowers etc).

 

I'm not sure how that's relevant though. Doesn't the fact that Egwene didn't sign it (I'm at work and can't check either but I think it said on behalf of the Amyrlin) suggest that in fact it was sent without her looking it over and account for the mixed message?

 

Re what's more personal I guess it's a matter of personal opinion. I think it's relative to the nature of the relationship though. Yes I do think a birthday gift from a spouse is more personal than a letter to a boyfriend asking to catch up and talk.

[AutomatedTeller]

I cannot believe there is a discussion about whether she should have composed a freaking letter herself. I mean... who cares? They were both acting like idiots towards each other and, at the end of the day, she took out Mesaana and he took out 3 super-assassins. Or, at least, the Seanchan thought they were super-assassins.

 

Is Egwene the most important non-ta'veren? I think it would be either her or Tuon - the seanchan have almost certainly the most powerful Lightside army around (unified army, that is - I think the Randlanders+Aiel+channelers are probably more powerful) And Elayne has a pretty big army - but the White Tower is a vitally important unifying force - so yeah - I'd give her the most important non-ta'veren.

[Kahlika]

She shouldn't have. That's the point. This simply isn't something that a person with a normal sense of propriety and empathy would delegate.

 

10-15 seconds is all it would take to write a letter like Silviana's, only without the grade-A bitchiness.

 

Look, people shouldn't get too worked up about this whole thing. Like her attitude generally, the letters existed for a reason. They were a plot device that allowed the last-minute saving-of-the-day on the part of Gawyn.

 

But let's not pretend that the letters would ever, in the real world in that situation within a relationship, be justified.

 

I think the point I was trying to make is that a "normal sense of propriety and empathy" is very subjective.

 

In my actual real life work experience I have seen people delegate far more personal matters to PAs to deal with (although as I said above even defining what is more personal that what is subjective in itself, so lets just say things I considered to be more personal). I have seen partners who are fine with that being delegated. I have seen nobody raise an eyebrow or think it was odd. Different people have different standards, in some environments it's not abnormal and is accepted, and given Egwene's position it's not unreasonable to think she's working within that kind of environment.

 

I can see why people are bothered by it, but they're judging it based on their own personal standards rather than relative to the environment she is in.

[randsc]

Oh, and by the way:

 

"Egwene groaned, closing her eyes. That man will be the death of me. 'Tell him to return. Infuriating though he is, I'm going to have need of him in the coming days."

 

She didn't ASK, or instruct Silviana to ASK. The word was TELL.

 

and the letter said, "You are to return with all haste."

 

She only instructed that the word ask be used in the second letter. Which he never saw.

 

Bottom line, she has no authority to command him.

[f3llyn]

I suppose if you think that this is the sort of situation that calls for, "the middle ages equivalent of a text message," that likely provides the answer to the question, "Are you married."

 

*Unimportant

 

Since we all know that Egwene-haters are always gonna hate and 'Eggheads' (Why is it that no one has made a derisive name for Egwene-haters yet?) are always going to dispute the hate; let's just move back to the point I made several pages ago. Egwene is the foremost non-ta'veren player for the Light, do you agree? Yes or no, and why. That is still discussing Egwene, no?

I would say pre-ToM, at least in TGS the most important non-taverin character in the series was Tam. He's the catalyst that drove Rand to his realization. His presence essentially saved the world from destruction.

[Ashlyn]

It's not the letter itself, or Egwene's assumption that she can command Gawyn, that is the issue. It is the fact that it is another example of her propensity to ignore the opinions of all those around her simply because she can. In some cases she actively plans and plots against those who should be her allies (i.e. planning to convince Rand, via the presence of rulers and armies, not to break the seals), without bothering to come up with viable alternatives.

 

If she is so convinced that breaking the seals is the absolute wrong thing to do, why does she not spend a moment trying to think of alternatives to this? Or even just set a couple of Brown sisters to search for information? I realize that she asked Rand to stay and discuss the plan, but even after his refusal, would it not be prudent to do a fair amount of research before deciding to try and head him off with the assistance of the gathered armies of the Light? Blind!

 

On the same point: she abhors the AS way of disregarding other opinions and plans based on whatever dinky reason they feel like, and then does the exact same thing to, well, everyone. Especially Rand. It boggles the mind that it has never occurred to her that: Rand = Dragon Reborn = saviour of mankind = he probably knows what to do a little better than AS who have spent most of their time plotting to gain advantage, not looking for information on how to win the Last Battle.

 

What makes it worse, IMHO, is that she had the potential to be the first forward-thinking, substantial Amyrlin in ages, and she threw it all away to become exactly like the women she aims to "change". She's terrible.

[David Selig]

Another thing which bothers me in Egwene's attitude towards Gawyn is that she never acknowledges how much he's given up to be able to be with her as a Warder. He could've stayed in Caemlyn and been the First Prince in the Sword and commander of the Andoran armies with all the power and prestige of this position. It's what Gawyn had been trained for all his life and it had been drilled into him that it's most important duty.

 

He gave that up to be close to Egwene and to be able to protect her. But Egwene never thought about this at all, she thinks her job and her responsibilities are the only ones which count.

[randsc]

Blehhh. The ultimate reason for hating Egwene: She's so awful she makes us empathize with Gawyn.

 

I don't hold out high hopes for Egwene's being forced to learn any humility. I listen to Sanderson's Writing Exceuses podcasts, and it is pretty clear that his own views are very, very politically correct. He even uses the phrase, "politically correct" in a non-ironic fashion.

 

So Egwene is unlikely to have to endure the humiliating climb-down she deserves. But I hope she at least stubs a toe at Merilor.

[gumburcules]

seconded about egwene getting her comeuppance. I so wished rand snorted in derision when she said don't turn your back on the amrylin (the amrylin..Ha I am the T'Amrylin wench).

 

Is Gawyn actually a channeler?

 

@BrandonSandrson Who is the best swordsman in #WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn? #portalstone

 

BrandonSandrson Mon Nov 08

@sleepinghour Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is. #portalstone

[f3llyn]

Luckier than he thinks he is implies that he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

 

Meaning he's probably not a channeler and he's almost as arrogant as Egwene (hard to match her in the arrogance department) so he would think he's super awesome.

 

Anyways, I have a curious thought about that and this is totally off topic.. Well, since Rand's merger with Lews Therins memories I would bet that he would be at the top of that list. Because remember how Be'lal talked about he and Lews Therin "took the tame sport of swords and learned to kill with it". Be'lal says Lews Therin was better at it than he was. I suppose it doesn't matter anymore because he's missing his hand.

 

End off topicness..

[AutomatedTeller]

well, he's 3rd best in the land. So he's not the best - 3rd is pretty good, though.

 

Rand might be super awesome... except he only has one hand and hasn't been practicing.

 

I still like Egwene. She's flawed, but I root for her.

[Ltsegarra]

I think a lot of people are reading her character wrong. Just because people don't agree with Rand doesn't make them wrong. We have to look at the potential roles each of the characters play. Team A (Rand, Nynaeve, and Moiraine) job in my opinion are the seals and recreating them. Team B (Egwene, the white tower, the black tower, and Seanchan's damanes, wind finders, and kinsfolks) are the channelers. They'll most likely be dealing with the Forsaken and rouge channelers. Other teams are worth mention but in another post.

So Egwene is presuming to step into an area she really has no business in. Her role as I see it is first solidifying the Aes Sedai. So far she's done this. As well as tying the various female channelers together, all except the Seanchan. In the coming books it will be Egwenes job to bring the Blacktower and Logaine's followers (taim=Moridin=Nableis...rouge channlers) into the fold as too the Seanchan. I don't mean as a nation entirely, just the subculture of Sul'Damane and Damane.

[f3llyn]

No one is saying that don't like Egwene because she disagrees with Rand. They're saying they don't like her because of how she treats people. It really doesn't have much to do with Rand at all other than she treats him like she does everyone else. And that's that they're all idiots in her eyes and she knows better than everyone else.

[Hopefire]

I suppose if you think that this is the sort of situation that calls for, "the middle ages equivalent of a text message," that likely provides the answer to the question, "Are you married."

 

*Unimportant

 

Since we all know that Egwene-haters are always gonna hate and 'Eggheads' (Why is it that no one has made a derisive name for Egwene-haters yet?) are always going to dispute the hate; let's just move back to the point I made several pages ago. Egwene is the foremost non-ta'veren player for the Light, do you agree? Yes or no, and why. That is still discussing Egwene, no?

I would say pre-ToM, at least in TGS the most important non-taverin character in the series was Tam. He's the catalyst that drove Rand to his realization. His presence essentially saved the world from destruction.

Tam or Nynaeve.

 

Nynaeve is the most powerful female Aes Sedai on the side of the Light in the books, she determined how to heal compulsion and the madness of the taint, she was the first to heal severing, she was the absolute first among the good guys of the current age to go toe-to-toe (i.e., not a sneak attack) with one of the Forsaken without the aid of any kind of power boost (i.e., no sa'angreal or any similar artifact causing a temporary boost in power) and win the fight (in all three of Rand's early victories against Ishamael and Aginor he had a power boost, the Green Man got Balthamel, and Moiraine blind-sided Be'lal), she was part of the circle that used the Bowl of Winds to break the Dark One's hold on the weather, she was the woman who helped cleanse Saidin, she's the one that Rand trusts enough to say where Perrin is (leading to the events that set of DarkRand's transformation into ZenRand), she captured Moghedien, and she rallies support for Lan. Nynaeve is also quite probably the only character in the series who remains on good terms with and is respected by every other major character on the side of the Light (well, probably not Tuon, but I digress). And she's been instrumental in recruiting the Kin and other channeling factions to closer ties with the White Tower.

 

She's an Aes Sedai who refuses to compromise who she is or what she believes. She's the greatest healer of her time, potentially the greatest of all time. She's been a part of the four major victories of the Light against the Dark One so far in the series (The Eye of the World, the use of the Bowl of Winds, the cleansing of saidin, and again, by bringing Tam to Rand she trigged the events leading to ZenRand). Of all the major characters, I wouldn't consider any of them to be wiser (more intelligent, yes; more experienced, yes; wiser, no).

 

Egwene has bagged one Forsaken herself, she's unified the White Tower, she's helped pick up on the groundwork laid down by others to create closer ties between the White Tower and other female channelers, she's fought off the Seanchan in defense of the White Tower, she was present for the battle at the Eye of the World and helped distract the Forsaken. What else has she really done? Nynaeve's accomplishments rival those of Rand. Egwene's accomplishments are rivaled by those of Elayne (who unified Andor again, has funded the dragon-cannons, was part of the group laying the groundwork with the Kin and co, was able to help Nynaeve with many of her tasks) and Perrin (for his work in the Two Rivers, and his misadventures in the latest books).

[Ltsegarra]

Oh I forgot to mention, Egwene while being the only one to bring the Aiel, the kins women, and the AesSedai and eventually the male Ashamans. Also is the only channelers to be able to create Cuendillar...the stuff the seals are made out of...remember? That's how Elaida caught her in the first place.

[f3llyn]

Egwene isn't the only one that can do that, though. Remember she taught Leane how to do it and a few others. IIRC she was almost as good at it as Egwene was despite her weakened state.

[babuada]

Blehhh. The ultimate reason for hating Egwene: She's so awful she makes us empathize with Gawyn.

 

I don't hold out high hopes for Egwene's being forced to learn any humility. I listen to Sanderson's Writing Exceuses podcasts, and it is pretty clear that his own views are very, very politically correct. He even uses the phrase, "politically correct" in a non-ironic fashion.

 

So Egwene is unlikely to have to endure the humiliating climb-down she deserves. But I hope she at least stubs a toe at Merilor.

Rand is not going to overpower these fool girls (pretend AS). He is a true AS himself. He will show them by example and they will learn to be the servant of all.

[babuada]

Luckier than he thinks he is implies that he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

 

Meaning he's probably not a channeler and he's almost as arrogant as Egwene (hard to match her in the arrogance department) so he would think he's super awesome.

 

Anyways, I have a curious thought about that and this is totally off topic.. Well, since Rand's merger with Lews Therins memories I would bet that he would be at the top of that list. Because remember how Be'lal talked about he and Lews Therin "took the tame sport of swords and learned to kill with it". Be'lal says Lews Therin was better at it than he was. I suppose it doesn't matter anymore because he's missing his hand.

 

End off topicness..

I doubt Rand would fight or kill anymore. He has become a true AS again.

[Hopefire]

Oh I forgot to mention, Egwene while being the only one to bring the Aiel, the kins women, and the AesSedai and eventually the male Ashamans. Also is the only channelers to be able to create Cuendillar...the stuff the seals are made out of...remember? That's how Elaida caught her in the first place.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you suggesting that thanks to Egwene, the Ashaman are now affiliated with and under the rule of the White Tower? If so, I'm slightly flabbergasted. As for Cuendillar, Leane Sharif and Bodewhin Cauthon can both make it; Nicola could as well, until she died.

[f3llyn]

Besides that, we have no reason to believe or suspect that Cuendillar seals will even be needed in the sealing of the Dark One this time around. Just because Lews Therin did that to create the imperfect seals doesn't mean that's what will happen again.

[Capering Capers]

Interesting thread and I would like to thank all since threads like this make me feel almost as if I am still reading WOT .

 

I would like to say that people ‘defending’ Egwene should lose the obsession with Rand and also their general dismissiveness. A few examples of what made this thread hard reading at times:

 

Elan Tedronai: "there's too much hate for egwene amongst WOT fans. Simply because she dares oppose their lord and master rand al thor. Infact all of Egwene's haters are all rand al thor fans. "

 implying people who hate Egwene only do so because they are blind followers of Rand

Exy:"This irrational hatred people have for Egwene is just bizarre. She's somehow expected to either magically know things she has no way of knowing, or else just meekly nod and smile at whatever noted madman Rand al'Thor says. If not, she's a horrible arrogant bitch and she needs to be PUNISHED. "

implying people who hate Egwene want stupid simplistic alternatives

 

Jillain Sanche: "Some of Egwene's recent thoughts or actions alarm us because we know more than she does. That does not make her a "b**ch" and anyone who says she is demonstrates their own lack of maturity."

saying people with other opinions are immature

 

Jillain Sanche:"I think it is more a reflection of the maturity level of the "haters" and I also believe that many of them will have a totally different opinion of many characters and of Jordan's writing abilities when they've spun another 20 trips around the Sun. "

stating people with other opinions are immature

 

 

Exy:"These anti-Egwene arguments are all completely dumb. "

Yeah, and we will listen to you because…?

 

Exy:"But, yeah, she's a bad person because she resisted Rand al'Thor. How dare she! "

 implying people who hate Egwene only do so because they are blind followers of Rand

 

Elan Tedronai: “Egwene has her faults but this constant vilfying of hers is funny. only brought about because she dared not grovel to messiah rand al thor.”

 implying people who hate Egwene only do so because they are blind followers of Rand

 

Elan Tedronai: “the hatred comes from her not bowing down to rand. simple as. After all why should she?”

just say it again!

The Angry Druid: “A perfect summary of why I can't stand Rand fanboys. Frequent hypocritical criticisms of other characters, but it's OK if Rand does the same thing (or worse). Please try to see the world w/out Rand colored glasses on.”

Yeah, because anyone hating Egwene is a Rand fanboy (whom you cannot stand)

 

Elan Tedronai:” Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.”

And say it again

 

I think this by Mark sums up my feeling about Rand vis-à-vis Egwene:

 

Mark Grayson: "Note for those who feel all anti-Egwene arguers are Rand fanboys: None of my arguments above reflect in any way how I feel about Rand. Egwene's actions can be judged as distastful to many regardless of whether or not I like Rand and think he makes mistakes. "

and this by smileyman: “ad hominen attacks are generally a sign of a poorly thought out position.”

[Capering Capers]

Also the reason why I think there are fewer/no threads hating on women:

 

Jillain Sanche:

But yeah, there are a few who seem to only dislike females and only like the male characters. (No threads entitled "Men you find annoying, for example.) That is therefore either sexism or simply immaturity.

 

is, in my opinion, that it is hard to hate on Rand, Lan, Mat, Ruarc, Ituralde or any of those great generals like Bryne or even our Kaf loving deathwatch general.

 

This in turn is because RJ wrote men to be mostly honourable (die for women, country, duty that whole borderland ethos that is also typical of the men of Manetheren).

 

When men suck, such as Perrin (being a general wuss and emo), they get hate. It happens the moment a male character is shitty. No sexism here on the part of any reader.

 

The women who get most flack are those who are not quite honest in their intentions. Especially Elayne and Egwene can be manipulative and less of a true friend (arguably understandably). Those women who are true and honest, like Birgitte, Nynaeve, Aviendha and Min are also the most popular.

[Zentari]

and this by smileyman: “ad hominen attacks are generally a sign of a poorly thought out position.”

Ad hominen usually serve as the basis of an attack targeting the opposition's knowledge base/standing.What is REALLY funny is that all those things are moot simply because here it's all about personal opinion.