Discuss Egwene

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I'm pretty sure you know that isn't what Ltsegarra meant... Egwene discovered the Saidar weaves for skimming, traveling, and making cuendillar. He clearly meant discovering the weave, not just being able to perform it.

Egwene didn't discover how to make cuendillar. They got that weave from Moghedien.

Moghedien pointed the way. But the discovery of the COMPLETE weave was Egwene's own.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm pretty sure you know that isn't what Ltsegarra meant... Egwene discovered the Saidar weaves for skimming, traveling, and making cuendillar. He clearly meant discovering the weave, not just being able to perform it.

Egwene didn't discover how to make cuendillar. They got that weave from Moghedien.

Moghedien pointed the way. But the discovery of the COMPLETE weave was Egwene's own.

 

Do we actually know that? It wasnt really specified, although I agree, we can put it down as Egwene's discovery. Same with female travelling.

 

However, to Hadilmir, its total crap Egwene has done more than Nynaeve. I dont say Egwene did nothing, she has done alot, but Nynaeve has done better.

 

 

1. She is a real Aes Sedai, unlike the current Tower children. (See Rand. Nynaeve's testing) Egwene was set up as a puppet Amyrlin, not really raised because of her awesomeness, but she DID prove herself competent, but the Tower children are still children compared to "real Aes Sedai".

2. You say Egwene went toe to to with Mesanna. True, it was kinda a letdown the way it happened, but fair enough. However, Nynaeve took on Moggy twice. Once in a saidar duel, the second she outsmarted her in TAR like Egwene. Nynaeve wins there.

2. Egwene discovered travelling. Moggy helped her discover cuaindillar again. Nynaeve healed severing (I will point out that not even AoL'ers found that, whereas travelling and Cuaindillar were only re-discovered) she helped cleanse saidin. (although didnt really do much, conceeded.) Healed the "taint maddness" something also unheard of.

 

Nynaeve's feats are much more advanced. Setting aside the fact that you love Egwene, pure fact says Nynaeve has the better CV.

 

Edit: to be fair, Egwene DID manage to pull down Elaida (although it was the Seanchan that allowed her the final victory, but most likely would have succeeded anyway) . I just thought we were talking about channeling accomplishments. I still think that Nynaeve's recent attempts to revolutionize the Tower's attitude (see her Testing) is a much more worthy accomplishment

[sleepinghour]

Moghedien pointed the way. But the discovery of the COMPLETE weave was Egwene's own.

Egwene held her peace. For once, she felt no shame at being praised for one of her supposed discoveries. Unlike nearly everything else except Traveling, this one actually was hers, though Moghedien had pointed the way before she escaped. The woman did not know how to actually make anything -- at least, she had not revealed any such knowledge however hard Egwene had pressed her, and she had pressed very hard -- but Moghedien had a wide streak of greed, and even in the Age of Legends, cuendillar had been a prized luxury. She had known enough of how it was made for Egwene to puzzle out the rest.

--CoT

You're right in that Moghedien didn't know the complete weave, but it still can't be said to be completely Egwene's discovery.

[David Selig]

The Knitting circle proves that life "outside" the confines of the Aes Sedai was more beneficial. The circle ladies live longer, have children that could channel, and developed several weaves that the Aes Sedai have trouble replicating.

The Kin rules forbid them from having children and "anything that might lead to them". I think this explains a lot about their behaviour. ;)

 

As for who's achieved the most between Nynaeve and Egwene - obviously Nynaeve and it's not even close. Apart from the already mentioned things, just the fact that she saved Rand, the only hope of the Light, from being killed by Rahvin, is enough to prove that. Nothing Egwene has done has been anywhere near as important. Nynaeve also stopped Rand from balefiring the Borderlanders, which would've most probably pushed him over the edge into insanity and going firmly into the Shadow camp. She was instrumental in finding Graendal's palace and thus helping Rand get rid of another Forsaken in Aran'gar.

[Guest Cjpatster]

Taking a neutral stance on the egwene is a bitch debate, I'm curious what this forum thinks about the possibility that she is a reincarnation of a figure from the dragon's past. Lews therin was opposed in his plan by a powerful woman named Latra posse' decume. While her fears were justified, it's clear now that her actions inAdvertently led to the taint on saidin and the breaking. In the end of "the gathering storm" on thing that brings Rand/lews from the edge is the realization that this is an opportunity to do things right. He also muses that illyena could live again too. If ilyena could, why not latra? Perhaps convincing egwene to unite the woman with him is his opportunity to fix his failure to sway latra during the age of legends...

 

Thoughts?

[f3llyn]

Taking a neutral stance on the egwene is a bitch debate, I'm curious what this forum thinks about the possibility that she is a reincarnation of a figure from the dragon's past. Lews therin was opposed in his plan by a powerful woman named Latra posse' decume. While her fears were justified, it's clear now that her actions inAdvertently led to the taint on saidin and the breaking. In the end of "the gathering storm" on thing that brings Rand/lews from the edge is the realization that this is an opportunity to do things right. He also muses that illyena could live again too. If ilyena could, why not latra? Perhaps convincing egwene to unite the woman with him is his opportunity to fix his failure to sway latra during the age of legends...

 

Thoughts?

It's certainly plausible and makes a fair bit of sense.

[DemandredFO]

Another point in Nyneave's favor. I don't Nyneave at her most immature would've tried to get a supposed friend killed to prove a point, which is what Egwene did with Nyneave's testing.

Tangetial point: Nyneave survived the test because she's Nyneave, what of Theodrin, Faolain and anyone else who the sisters think don't deserve to be AS, are they going to try hard to kill them to. We could see a deathrate to match the Black Tower.

[theseeker2654]

Ok, I havent read all the pages here but probably the last half or so. What I find extremely strange is that no one really mentioned that fact that Egwene is all of what? 18 years old and she is Amyrlin. Most of us know that all teenagers think they know best, think they know everything. Well here is a teenager who since leaving the Two Rivers has shown increasing disdain for men and their usefulness and opinions, has always wanted to learn everythign and learn it now, and to hell with if its dangerous or not. She has always thought that she and certainly AS know better than anyone else (as all AS naturally do). Now she is made Amyrlin seat and these bad habits/opinions are magnified one hundredfold. Its hard to get a big head when you are a farm girl just out of the small town and with Moiraine, a wise, strong, and fair women (and probably the best writtin women in the series). Then she was with a novice in the tower, ditto to not being conducive to arrogance. Then she was a wise one apprentice and they stand for that crap even less then AS. Then she was called to Salidar and made Amyrlin. and all of a sudden she is in college. Away from the rents, and with everyone bowing and scraping. Now all of a sudden her opinion that she knew everything was suddenly justified by the fact that she had power over pretty much everyone in the world. I mean she is more than a king or queen now. So she had gotten totally out of control. She is a frightened girl, WAAAY over her head and trying to tread water by pretending she knows more than she does.

 

This isnt an issue for most teenagers, but most teenagers arent tantamount to the Empress of the world, and they dont have thousands if not millions depending on them. She needs to grow up and grow up fast or she will deserve the stilling and execution she gets.

 

That being said I certainly have never really liked Egwene as a character, but I think that was the point. RJ wrote her as a spoiled know it all teenager, which is exactly what she is. And IMO the only reason to put someone clearly not equipped, maturity wise, into a situation that would demand growing up fast would be to showcase that transformation into a women. I feel that in the last book she has to have some sort of epiphany or catharsis and will change and realize that how she is acting might be how AS usually act. But its not how a good person should be acting.

 

Now, on to her views on uniting all channelers under the WT. I feel that at least a temporarly alliance MUST be agreed upon if the forces of light are to have any chance in TG. I mean, they need every last channeler then can get right? However, I do not in the slightest agree with her forcing them into being basically subservient to the tower. Or even forcing them into accepting equal standing in the tower. Each seperate channeler faction should be given the option to come under the umbrella of the tower. But to force them to join the tower is a violation of the highest degree. are they not entitled to teach their own channelers per their own traditions (wise women). Do they not have the same right to freedom that anyone does. Assuming they arent a danger to those around them of course, they should be allowed to teach and be taught by whatever traditions that people have. What right does the White tower have to force their rule on anyone?

[Mulk]

DemandredFO - Egwene didn't try to get Nynaeve killed. Her testing was brutal far beyond the norm. Egwene was upset at the harshness of it, so you can't say she expected it to be that bad. Under a more normal version of the testing I imagine Nynaeve would have passed fairly easily or at least completed it more easily.

 

I'm hardly an Egwene apologist. But I thought that merited pointing out.

[randsc]

 

That being said I certainly have never really liked Egwene as a character, but I think that was the point. RJ wrote her as a spoiled know it all teenager, which is exactly what she is. And IMO the only reason to put someone clearly not equipped, maturity wise, into a situation that would demand growing up fast would be to showcase that transformation into a women. I feel that in the last book she has to have some sort of epiphany or catharsis and will change and realize that how she is acting might be how AS usually act. But its not how a good person should be acting.

 

 

 

This ^^^^^. At least, I hope so.

 

If Egwene isn't brought down a peg or twenty, then we finish the series with a petulent, immature brat holding one of the most important offices in the world.

[theseeker2654]

 

That being said I certainly have never really liked Egwene as a character, but I think that was the point. RJ wrote her as a spoiled know it all teenager, which is exactly what she is. And IMO the only reason to put someone clearly not equipped, maturity wise, into a situation that would demand growing up fast would be to showcase that transformation into a women. I feel that in the last book she has to have some sort of epiphany or catharsis and will change and realize that how she is acting might be how AS usually act. But its not how a good person should be acting.

 

 

 

This ^^^^^. At least, I hope so.

 

If Egwene isn't brought down a peg or twenty, then we finish the series with a petulent, immature brat holding one of the most important offices in the world.

 

Exactly, her and Rand at the least would have to make up as they command the largest light side armies, and probably shouldnt be squabbling amongst themselves if they want to have any hope of defeating the DO.

[sleepinghour]

Tangetial point: Nyneave survived the test because she's Nyneave, what of Theodrin, Faolain and anyone else who the sisters think don't deserve to be AS, are they going to try hard to kill them to. We could see a deathrate to match the Black Tower.

I think the Sitters were mainly after Nynaeve and Elayne because they were known as Egwene's close friends and would be powerful allies because of their strength. If Nynaeve or Elayne failed, it would seem like Egwene had exhibited poor judgment in raising them. Some Sitters might also have resented that Nynaeve and Elayne will be the strongest Aes Sedai and top of the hierarchy without having to spend years scheming for power like everybody else.

 

Faolain and Theodrin are not too strong in the Power and have always been obedient, so the Sitters have no reason to see them as a threat. They used to be Romanda's and Lelaine's attendants (in reality Egwene's spies) before they were sent to the Black Tower. Faolain's spying was eventually discovered by Lelaine, but while she's no longer in Lelaine's good graces, I don't think Lelaine would want to lose someone she's got under her thumb. Theodrin is still on good terms with Romanda.

[randsc]

This is just one of the reasons why the Aes Sedai's method of determining precedence is wrong.

 

Since powerful Accepted will immediately "outrank" most Aes Sedai, those conducting the testing have every incentive to trip up the Accepted during their testing.

[Hopefire]

Exactly, her and Rand at the least would have to make up as they command the largest light side armies, and probably shouldnt be squabbling amongst themselves if they want to have any hope of defeating the DO.

 

Two of the three largest.

 

The Seanchan armies likely dwarf those of Egwene, and may rival the total force that Rand could put together in numbers.

[Ltsegarra]

I think people are getting stuck in a Naynaeve vs. Egwene "whose better" argument. Their roles are completely different in the coming books. I consider Egwene the "general" of channelers as Mat will prove to be the "general" of the regular armies. Naynaeve I think is Rands female "balance". Her roles will be that of support for him directly. As in "Knife of Dream" and cleansing of Saidin, Rands and N's job was the actual cleansing and all the other channeled under Cadsuanne was defending Rand. Well have a repeat of this but on a much grandeur scale during Tarmon Gaidin.

I'm not arguing that Egwene will control all the channelers or that the White Tower will. What I am arguin is that Robert Jordan has alluded to the legendary times of the Aes Sedai and the cyclical nature of the wheel. It therefore stands to reason that males in some fashion will be incorporated back into the Aes Sedai as equals. As too will the other channeler groups.

 

 

@heran Telamon...a very good call on the reincarnation of Latra. rand recognizes that in order to create new seals all the old things must be destroyed and old errors corrected. If this is true Egwene is repeating "Latra's error" in resisting Rands idea and if she doesn't come around a failure will occur. I believe Rand IS gambling on Egwene as I argued earlier, "job" will be first forming an alliance to stop Rand from destroying the seals and hopefully convincing her and the other "channelers" in the wisdom of his choice. Due to time constraints Rand can't simply gather, organize, and plan strategy all the various groups of channelers. Just as Rand can't gather all the regular armies and must rely on Mat, Perrin and other generals.

 

Egwene must come around though and I think the most likely people to help her change her mind and that of the others will be Gwayne and Aviendha. Gwayne will remind her of love and trust. Aviendha will show Egwene the future of her current path, namely the fall of the Whitetower.

[Hadilmir]

Do we actually know that? It wasnt really specified, although I agree, we can put it down as Egwene's discovery. Same with female travelling.

 

However, to Hadilmir, its total crap Egwene has done more than Nynaeve. I dont say Egwene did nothing, she has done alot, but Nynaeve has done better.

 

 

1. She is a real Aes Sedai, unlike the current Tower children. (See Rand. Nynaeve's testing) Egwene was set up as a puppet Amyrlin, not really raised because of her awesomeness, but she DID prove herself competent, but the Tower children are still children compared to "real Aes Sedai".

2. You say Egwene went toe to to with Mesanna. True, it was kinda a letdown the way it happened, but fair enough. However, Nynaeve took on Moggy twice. Once in a saidar duel, the second she outsmarted her in TAR like Egwene. Nynaeve wins there.

2. Egwene discovered travelling. Moggy helped her discover cuaindillar again. Nynaeve healed severing (I will point out that not even AoL'ers found that, whereas travelling and Cuaindillar were only re-discovered) she helped cleanse saidin. (although didnt really do much, conceeded.) Healed the "taint maddness" something also unheard of.

 

Nynaeve's feats are much more advanced. Setting aside the fact that you love Egwene, pure fact says Nynaeve has the better CV.

 

Edit: to be fair, Egwene DID manage to pull down Elaida (although it was the Seanchan that allowed her the final victory, but most likely would have succeeded anyway) . I just thought we were talking about channeling accomplishments. I still think that Nynaeve's recent attempts to revolutionize the Tower's attitude (see her Testing) is a much more worthy accomplishment

 

If we're talking about channeling accomplishments then you're entirely correct, Nynaeve is unmatchable. I merely meant who has done more for the general good and is now in the position to be the greatest aid to the Light.

 

A note on the toe-to-toe with a Forsaken point, Nynaeve first used a combination of strength and deceit to overpower Moghedien, then the second time it is entirely deceit that allows her to win. Egwene challenged Mesaana in a battle of willpower and won in every sense of the word. True, Nynaeve's two victories seem more impressive, but I'd say crushing someone's mind with your strength of will is at the very least comparable.

 

*I argue for Egwene because I disagree with those bashing her, not because I feel obligated to protect a character. I'll also be cheering if the rightful Aes Sedai, ZenRand, lays the smack down on all the Third Age Aes Sedai, including Egwene.

[Locke]

I used to like Egwene. She was one of my favorite characters. In re-reading the books I got annoyed at some of her arrogance when she thought of Rand or Asha'man, but ToM just blew it over the top. randsc stated it perfectly on the 1st page. She treats Rand like he's just a 20 year old, insane (despite clearly seeing his current state) farmer who happens to be the Dragon Reborn. Hm, wait, isn't she just a 20 year old innkeeper's daughter. No, of course not, she's the Amyrlin Seat! Her 2 years outside of the Two Rivers have given her greater knowledge than anyone else, certainly more than some silly Dragon Reborn who has lived more than 400 years.[/end rant]

[Ltsegarra]

Just to add a little side note..up to the point that Rand returned "good" the only info the White Tower and Egwene had was that of the "bad" Rand. Egwene had an extremely short period of time to change the I'll feeling she was having. Not to mention, on a philosophical level, Aes Sedai are "taught" to use the One Power in defense only. rand on the other hand has established the Black Tower as weapons. Not only this but Egwene had received reports of the Aes Sedai being bounded to Ash'aman ON Rands order against their will.

To say Egwene is prejudice against Rands opinions is an understatement.

Up to this point I don't think either the Seachan nor Whitetower has been exposed to male and female channelers working together. Both groups are basing all their decisions on prejudices of the past. Nor can either group trust the fact that Saidin has been cleansed, therefore they may still believe the male channelers capable of madness and harm. This is where Naynaeves "curing" madness may help ease Egwene's misgivings.

 

Just a side not the last 3 books have been written slightly off the same timelines. Perrin is just discovering rands transformation in chapter whatever in "Towers of Midnight". We as readers have the luxury of knowing everything, but must remember ther characters may not.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Do we actually know that? It wasnt really specified, although I agree, we can put it down as Egwene's discovery. Same with female travelling.

 

However, to Hadilmir, its total crap Egwene has done more than Nynaeve. I dont say Egwene did nothing, she has done alot, but Nynaeve has done better.

 

 

1. She is a real Aes Sedai, unlike the current Tower children. (See Rand. Nynaeve's testing) Egwene was set up as a puppet Amyrlin, not really raised because of her awesomeness, but she DID prove herself competent, but the Tower children are still children compared to "real Aes Sedai".

2. You say Egwene went toe to to with Mesanna. True, it was kinda a letdown the way it happened, but fair enough. However, Nynaeve took on Moggy twice. Once in a saidar duel, the second she outsmarted her in TAR like Egwene. Nynaeve wins there.

2. Egwene discovered travelling. Moggy helped her discover cuaindillar again. Nynaeve healed severing (I will point out that not even AoL'ers found that, whereas travelling and Cuaindillar were only re-discovered) she helped cleanse saidin. (although didnt really do much, conceeded.) Healed the "taint maddness" something also unheard of.

 

Nynaeve's feats are much more advanced. Setting aside the fact that you love Egwene, pure fact says Nynaeve has the better CV.

 

Edit: to be fair, Egwene DID manage to pull down Elaida (although it was the Seanchan that allowed her the final victory, but most likely would have succeeded anyway) . I just thought we were talking about channeling accomplishments. I still think that Nynaeve's recent attempts to revolutionize the Tower's attitude (see her Testing) is a much more worthy accomplishment

 

If we're talking about channeling accomplishments then you're entirely correct, Nynaeve is unmatchable. I merely meant who has done more for the general good and is now in the position to be the greatest aid to the Light.

 

A note on the toe-to-toe with a Forsaken point, Nynaeve first used a combination of strength and deceit to overpower Moghedien, then the second time it is entirely deceit that allows her to win. Egwene challenged Mesaana in a battle of willpower and won in every sense of the word. True, Nynaeve's two victories seem more impressive, but I'd say crushing someone's mind with your strength of will is at the very least comparable.

 

*I argue for Egwene because I disagree with those bashing her, not because I feel obligated to protect a character. I'll also be cheering if the rightful Aes Sedai, ZenRand, lays the smack down on all the Third Age Aes Sedai, including Egwene.

 

Ah yeah, your definitely right there. Thats why i added the footnote.

 

YOur right to defend her because you disagree with what others say. I agree, perhaps not to the extent you do, that people are wayyyy too harsh on Egwene. I must have misunderstood the conversation.

 

Nynaeve = More of a revolutionary character

Egwene = A uniting/leading character.

 

I still have faith that Egwene will become as good as her potential and overcome this child Aes Sedai rubbish.

 

Out of all the characters, Egwene is the only one who hasnt really had her life changing epiphany.

 

I mean, she has been through alot and grown, but she has always stuck to her ideals and they have never really been challenged, nor faced or overcome.

 

Rand had his VoG, which challenged all of his ideals and made him a better person.

 

Nynaeve has faced her own inner turmoil (the Block and hate of Aes Sedai) and become stronger for it.

 

Mat has in his own way learned responsibility and honor.

 

Perrin has overcome his whinging about leading and is now at peace.

 

Egwene however, is the only one that hasnt been mentally challanged. Sure she was whipped and all that crap, but never once has she questioned her faults. She has always been righteous, and just hasnt had that internal conflict. All through her Tower imprisonment it was always her (right) v Elaida (wrong). I have faith she will have the same inner realization and epiphany as the other 4 EF have had.

 

Edit: In fact, even though i really hated the way she responded to Rand in ToM, I feel sorry for her and I do hope she manages to have an epiphany. She has had to hold the White Tower together against the Shadow, a great feat for an 18yo girl barely 2 years out of her country village. However, she needs to let go of her pride, jsut like Rand did, and accept that others sometimes know better, and you can show emotion and ask for advice/help. Once she realizes she does not have to be a statuesque leader of iron will (seeing the similarities to Rand now?) she will be one of the most influential and powerful people in the world.

[moratcorlm]

DemandredFO - Egwene didn't try to get Nynaeve killed. Her testing was brutal far beyond the norm. Egwene was upset at the harshness of it, so you can't say she expected it to be that bad. Under a more normal version of the testing I imagine Nynaeve would have passed fairly easily or at least completed it more easily.

And Egwene would be among the most harsh. To show that she had been right in raising Nynaeve.

-- Nynaeve’s thoughts on being tortured for Egwene’s PR benefit, “A Choice”, TOM

[Val Mickey]

Mat has in his own way learned responsibility and honor.

 

Just pointing out that Mat was always honourable.

 

Egwene's becoming a termagant. I hope Gawyn suffers till his death in bed. Or maybe he'll decide to finish it and commit a violent suicide.

 

Gawyn's collection of Bloodknife rings seems to have a Seanchan arc significance, which has so many possibilities. I just can't find the right lock to put it in.

[sleepinghour]

Gawyn's collection of Bloodknife rings seems to have a Seanchan arc significance, which has so many possibilities. I just can't find the right lock to put it in.

We still don't know which of Gawyn's possible futures (a long life and death in bed, or a violent death) will come true. If he hadn't chosen Egwene, he wouldn't have fought the Bloodknives and picked up their ter'angreal. So perhaps choosing Egwene wasn't the path to a long life.

 

Only, Brandon's comments made it sound like Gawyn will live to regret his mistake:

 

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.

--Brandon on Facebook - 21 June 2010 8:34 pm

If Gawyn dies or suffers permanent damage from wearing those ter'angreal, Egwene would end up hating the Seanchan even more. Maybe that will ruin peace negotiations with Tuon. Tuon is Empress and it's Egwene, not the Hall, that's been given authority to deal with the world's monarchs. At the time, the Hall worried about Rand being a monarch, but so is Tuon.

[StrangeCat]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

[DemandredFO]

I hope Gawyn lives a long life and the ghosts of Hammar and Coulin haunt him every damn day. His actions led to Darth Rand and not wanting a box. Egwene is taking the same path Darth Rand did, and only good thing is she doesn't know the weave for balefire I don't think or have a Choedan Kal. The difference is she's doing it mostly voluntarily, at least Rand had the mitigation of the taint, the box and insanity.

[David Selig]

I never liked Egwene. even from the first book.

I think now she really needs to get laid!

She certainly does. Maybe this will make her a bit more agreeable.

 

It worked for Nynaeve, she's been a lot less bitchy since she got married. Though of course she was always a much better person than Egwene.