Discuss Rand

[Jon Paul]

Whilst all things in the Pattern require balance, the True Power its self is not of the Pattern. It's an outside force poking it's nasty finger in where it doesn't belong. So I don't see why it needs a balance.

[Terrapin]

Jon Paul,

 

The True Power very well may not need a Balance as it is outside the pattern, "poking its noise in". Thought I'd offer a counter though. If the dark one is eternal, as Verin says, then the pattern's destruction will not cause the demise of the Dark One. Per your arguement: If the true power is an extension of the dark one, then it is an outside influence being introduced into the realm and reality of the pattern. This implies that another outside power could potentially intrude. If the Dark Ones only desire is to destroy and the Creators only interest is to create then move on, there is grounds for the arguement for a "balance" between the two outside the pattern. Debatable, but possible.

 

RJ said the creator doesn't take direct action in the WOT. However, if the Dark One is indeed eternal then it is quite possible that the Creator is as well. If the Creator is eternal and exists outside the pattern, then his aura/power/chi/mojo would as well. The "power", for lack of a better description, would then be ever present by extention. If the Creator's "power" is ever present, then it is possible for someone to eventually tap into it as the true power is able to be tapped. I'm not implying that the Creator has directly intervined and granted Rand the ability to tap this power, only that it potentially has always been floating around out there and Rand's revelation has allowed him to somehow grasp it.

 

Then again this is all conjecture and mainly that. But hey, everyone likes a good debate.

 

On a side thought: Saiden has been described as a constant battle for control, walking along the edge of a knife, and bending it to your will. Somehow this seems in contrast to the new Zin Rand. Just a thought.

 

Cheers

[Jon Paul]

For the greater part of your post, whilst it is possible I would reject the notion. Even Pedron Niall acknowledged that the Creator had abandoned humanity. He's given the Pattern the tools necessary to take care of its self. He's trapped souls in a perpetual cycle so that he doesn't have to deal with them.

 

On a side thought: Saiden has been described as a constant battle for control, walking along the edge of a knife, and bending it to your will. Somehow this seems in contrast to the new Zin Rand. Just a thought.

 

I think it fits Rand Sedai perfectly. The channeller imposing order to a raging maelstrom? If that isn't a mirror of Rand Sedai's role in the world then I do not know what is .

[FarShainMael]

Whilst all things in the Pattern require balance, the True Power its self is not of the Pattern. It's an outside force poking it's nasty finger in where it doesn't belong. So I don't see why it needs a balance.

 

But there is balance outside the Pattern as well - the Creator and the Dark One.

 

For the greater part of your post, whilst it is possible I would reject the notion. Even Pedron Niall acknowledged that the Creator had abandoned humanity. He's given the Pattern the tools necessary to take care of its self. He's trapped souls in a perpetual cycle so that he doesn't have to deal with them.

 

But Zen Rand Sedai has recognised that this is simply not true. Souls are in a perpetual cycle, true, but it's one which can change from one Turning to the next. Souls therefore have the chance to fix their mistakes and grow. See VoG.

 

And PN is wrong; the Creator has not abandoned humanity; He has given them His champion, his Chosen One. See EotW51.

 

On a side thought: Saiden has been described as a constant battle for control, walking along the edge of a knife, and bending it to your will. Somehow this seems in contrast to the new Zin Rand. Just a thought.

 

I think it fits Rand Sedai perfectly. The channeller imposing order to a raging maelstrom? If that isn't a mirror of Rand Sedai's role in the world then I do not know what is .

 

Hear hear!

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Dark One is the balance of the Creator it has been established.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

The creator..creates while the Dark One is the opposite, destruction.

 

The creator doesnt really care abbout the world, at least not in an emotional sense. He is not like Christian God. He created, then left.

 

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

 

So he doesnt really care if the DO destroys the people and love and that, its just that destruction is the opposite to what the Creator stands for. Thus, they are in constant opposition. However, the creator, having already created the world fully, has no more creating to do, so thats it. The DO however, has a lot to destroy.

 

its like building a sandcastle. Once you finish, you look at it and admire it etc.. Then u leave it. The DO however, would go about destroying the sandcastle, and thats whta he is trying to do.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, the Creator stands for creation not destruction, so He does not want his creation destroyed. To that end, he has given it a Champion to protect it, a Champion who is capable of resisting the Dark One. This protection is a necessary part of a perfect creation, IMO.

[Jon Paul]

Hm, okay, okay, I surrender of the Creator-TP-Dark One balance thing.

 

HOWEVER!

 

For the Creator to lend out-of-Pattern aid in the form of some magical power to rival that of the Dark One's True Power would still not fit as it would be the Creator admitting that his Creation is not perfect which it must be seeing as he's.. the Creator and I doubt he could live with a flaw in his Creation.

 

Heathen gods are arrogant folks !

 

SO! The Pattern contains all that is necessary internally !

[anotherfingolfin]

Yes, the Creator stands for creation not destruction, so He does not want his creation destroyed. To that end, he has given it a Champion to protect it, a Champion who is capable of resisting the Dark One. This protection is a necessary part of a perfect creation, IMO.

 

I disagree with the bolded part. Creation ends when the object comes into being. Anything beyond that is preservation. While somewhat related, the concepts are essentially different.

A parallel I can draw is from Hindu mythology- There are three distinct divinities for Creation, Preservation and Destruction. The creator is said to have created everything, and then just let it be. The preserver is a different entity, who does the protecting. (Incidentally, the creator, is hardly ever worshipped; much like the WoT Creator, he is more just a part of mythology and rarely invoked.)

 

There is nothing substantial in the text to suggest that the creator really cares for the world. That's not to say he completely ignored it- what, with Horn-y Heroes, Reborn Dragons and other Pattern-correcting goodness.

The way I read it, he has the emotional attachment towards the WoT world a craftsman would have towards some object he created. Like a carpenter who builds a table carefully, in the contruction he ensures it has properties to be strong, stable and to last as long as possible. After it's done though, it's out of his hands, and he is definitely not going to risk too much fighting to protect it.

 

Addendum: At this point in the books, if there is any clear case of Creator-aiding-good guys, it would be deus ex machina, and more than slightly lame.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, the Creator stands for creation not destruction, so He does not want his creation destroyed. To that end, he has given it a Champion to protect it, a Champion who is capable of resisting the Dark One. This protection is a necessary part of a perfect creation, IMO.

 

I disagree with the bolded part. Creation ends when the object comes into being. Anything beyond that is preservation. While somewhat related, the concepts are essentially different.

A parallel I can draw is from Hindu mythology- There are three distinct divinities for Creation, Preservation and Destruction. The creator is said to have created everything, and then just let it be. The preserver is a different entity, who does the protecting. (Incidentally, the creator, is hardly ever worshipped; much like the WoT Creator, he is more just a part of mythology and rarely invoked.)

 

There is nothing substantial in the text to suggest that the creator really cares for the world. That's not to say he completely ignored it- what, with Horn-y Heroes, Reborn Dragons and other Pattern-correcting goodness.

The way I read it, he has the emotional attachment towards the WoT world a craftsman would have towards some object he created. Like a carpenter who builds a table carefully, in the contruction he ensures it has properties to be strong, stable and to last as long as possible. After it's done though, it's out of his hands, and he is definitely not going to risk too much fighting to protect it.

 

That's one way of looking at it, certainly, and would apply to a Creator who shares the same time-frame as His creation. If, however, time is one of the things He created, this would mean that creation and preservation are essentially the same thing - preservation is simply creation operating at every instant of time and point in space. To illustrate what I mean, let us once again (yawn!) consider a computer game. The game environment exists in computer spacetime while the computer is switched on (drawing the Electric Power!) and running. A Player outside the system can pause the action, fast-forward, rewind, without the game entities being aware of it. (Tron..) If the Player switches the machine off (or the DO yanks the plug!) all of His creation collapses.

 

Addendum: At this point in the books, if there is any clear case of Creator-aiding-good guys, it would be deus ex machina, and more than slightly lame.

 

I'd agree. I was annoyed enough when Graendal pulled that rabbit out of her hat to escape from NB. And I don't think it will happen. The Creator made His position clear in EotW51.

[Tiinker]

Rand is mad right?

[Val Mickey]

Who isn't?

[FarShainMael]

Rand is mad right?

 

No, I don't think so. He is now fully integrated, his past selves - most recently LTT - have merged into his present-day self, so his claim to be 400+years old is valid. He is no longer out of contact with reality. He has, as the Aiel said, 'embraced death'. The taint is still present in his brain, but it is buffered by that web of Light which prevents it from touching him. So no, he's not mad any more.

[blazetheearth]

Yes, the Creator stands for creation not destruction, so He does not want his creation destroyed. To that end, he has given it a Champion to protect it, a Champion who is capable of resisting the Dark One. This protection is a necessary part of a perfect creation, IMO.

 

I disagree with the bolded part. Creation ends when the object comes into being. Anything beyond that is preservation. While somewhat related, the concepts are essentially different.

A parallel I can draw is from Hindu mythology- There are three distinct divinities for Creation, Preservation and Destruction. The creator is said to have created everything, and then just let it be. The preserver is a different entity, who does the protecting. (Incidentally, the creator, is hardly ever worshipped; much like the WoT Creator, he is more just a part of mythology and rarely invoked.)

 

There is nothing substantial in the text to suggest that the creator really cares for the world. That's not to say he completely ignored it- what, with Horn-y Heroes, Reborn Dragons and other Pattern-correcting goodness.

The way I read it, he has the emotional attachment towards the WoT world a craftsman would have towards some object he created. Like a carpenter who builds a table carefully, in the contruction he ensures it has properties to be strong, stable and to last as long as possible. After it's done though, it's out of his hands, and he is definitely not going to risk too much fighting to protect it.

 

That's one way of looking at it, certainly, and would apply to a Creator who shares the same time-frame as His creation. If, however, time is one of the things He created, this would mean that creation and preservation are essentially the same thing - preservation is simply creation operating at every instant of time and point in space. To illustrate what I mean, let us once again (yawn!) consider a computer game. The game environment exists in computer spacetime while the computer is switched on (drawing the Electric Power!) and running. A Player outside the system can pause the action, fast-forward, rewind, without the game entities being aware of it. (Tron..) If the Player switches the machine off (or the DO yanks the plug!) all of His creation collapses.

 

Addendum: At this point in the books, if there is any clear case of Creator-aiding-good guys, it would be deus ex machina, and more than slightly lame.

 

I'd agree. I was annoyed enough when Graendal pulled that rabbit out of her hat to escape from NB. And I don't think it will happen. The Creator made His position clear in EotW51.

 

 

I like the tie in from Hindu mythology, it would put the Wheel (which spins out the Pattern) as the Preservation Deity, and would make those that serve the Wheel directly (ta'veren), Avatars of Preservation, which I think fits the Dragon (Reborn). And it also fits in with the fact that RJ pulled from so many different mythological concepts to construct his Universe.

[Tiinker]

But what of all those black pins? I figured he was completely sane again but then the pins symbolized madness. Or at least seemed to with the curing of the other Asha'man

[FarShainMael]

But what of all those black pins? I figured he was completely sane again but then the pins symbolized madness. Or at least seemed to with the curing of the other Asha'man

 

That's the Taint, I think. It doesn't symbolise madness; it causes madness.. until someone like Nynaeve pulls out the spines; or something counteracts them, as the Light (or whatever it is) does in Rand.

 

The darkness was enormous, covering the entirety of his mind. Thousands upon thousands of the tiny black thorns pricked into his brain, but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of something. A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light given form and life. She gasped. It coated each of the dark tines, driving into his mind alongside them. What did it mean?

[Erunion]

On the whole Creator balancing Dark One debate, the creator left the pattern and a Champion in order to maintain his perfect creation. Is it not possible that the creator also left a tool for that champion to use, outside of the neutral Saidin/Saidar? So perhaps the blanket of light that Rand now has is something left from the beginning of creation, simply waiting for when the Champion is ready to use it.

 

 

Of course, should we be referring to the "beginning" of creation? Is it not true that there are "Neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time"? Therefore, was creation a single creative act after which the creator extricated himself, or is it ongoing?

I'm not sure exactly where this thought leads, but anyhow. It's interesting.

[Mulk]

If it has no beginning then it has no Creator. However, there IS a Creator for randland. So there must have been a beginning at some point. /shrug

[Erunion]

That's if you think linearly. Is it not logical that the creator (and, potentially, the Dark One) exists outside of time-space? Therefore, he would not be constrained by time or by our linear thinking. But anyhow, I digress.

 

What do you guys think, is the "light shield" the creator directly interfering, a power that was left in creation in order to balance the "True Power" (that the Creator's Champion can access when he is ready), or something else entirely?

[Kelsey Christensen]

HES AN ANGLE NOW!

Really i thought he would get so bad until he bursts~ well he didnt~

But what i think is scarier than what he was before ~ Hes now all "angeletic" but mad at the same time..the picture in my head just really scares me!haha i still kinda see our "baby" randy, but know its just a faded out shadow *sigh*~ well there is my opinion!

[Mulk]

That's if you think linearly. Is it not logical that the creator (and, potentially, the Dark One) exists outside of time-space? Therefore, he would not be constrained by time or by our linear thinking. But anyhow, I digress.

 

What do you guys think, is the "light shield" the creator directly interfering, a power that was left in creation in order to balance the "True Power" (that the Creator's Champion can access when he is ready), or something else entirely?

 

It's said, by Verin I believe, that the Dark One is paradox. As he is the opposite of the Creator, does that not mean that the Creator is not paradoxical? Further, a universe or world that has no beginning cannot be said to have a creator. The Creator existed first. The world of Randland existed after. These are clear points that there can be no argument about, since RJ established them. There is no field of logic or reason whereby you can make that mean anything other than that the world was created a finite (though probably extremely long) period of time before the present.

 

I fully agree that the Creator is unbound by time and thus eternal/infinite. His creations are not, and are therefore finite.

 

With regard to the other question, I'm guessing something else. The Light shield thing doesn't correspond to anything else we understand about Randland. But I could be entirely off base about it. I'm honestly not sure that will be something that will be explained in the last book.

[haloun]

I'd agree. I was annoyed enough when Graendal pulled that rabbit out of her hat to escape from NB. And I don't think it will happen. The Creator made His position clear in EotW51.

 

 

i disagree. the creator said he would not help at that time. he did not say he would never help.

[Ltsegarra]

I read the "black-barbs" in Rands mind as the actual damage done by the "taint" while it was still around. Even though Rand cleansed Saidin, he didn't automatically cure the madness. Nynaeve has been shown to be the one so far with this ability. However, much like Rands Two wounds in his side, Nynaeve is terrified to even try curing them as if unconsciously she recognizes the price she would have to pay personally to free Rand. Nynaeve did cure one of the Ashaman of his madness though.

[moratcorlm]

i disagree. the creator said he would not help at that time. he did not say he would never help.

What proof is there that that BIG VOICE was the Creator?

[Callern]

i disagree. the creator said he would not help at that time. he did not say he would never help.

What proof is there that that BIG VOICE was the Creator?

 

umm sry, but what chapter was this?

[FarShainMael]

i disagree. the creator said he would not help at that time. he did not say he would never help.

What proof is there that that BIG VOICE was the Creator?

 

umm sry, but what chapter was this?

 

The Eye of the World, Chapter 51. Look for the bits in CAPITALS.