Discuss The Forsaken

[dwn]

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

 

 

i think emu on the loose described it best. Robert jordan could not top himself. He painted the forsaken as big bad ass villains who wreaked such havoc in the age of legends, a time when there was thousands of powerful channellers and then he completely flopped.

 

The only forsaken worth his salt was Rahvin. The rest including the much vaunted Ishamael/Moridin were completely useless. People should stop making excuses for the forsaken failures and simply should admit that RJ could not do justice to his own description of the forsaken

 

Also, as Bob T Dwarf mentioned somewhere, if the Forsaken had really used their power and knowledge to destabilize the world early on, no country would have been left standing by TFoH. Any non-DF leaders would have been killed (like Semirhage did in Seandar), a few DF uprisings, and the world would plunge into anarchy. At that point it's pretty much game over for the Light.

 

It's a problem in any story where technology or magic reach a certain power level.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

I'm thinking Demandred is Yoeli and that Yoeli death was falsely reported. When Rand showed up, it destroyed Yoeli's plans to totally destroy Rodel's army, but escape with Rodel, winning his way into a trusted general for the side of Light. So he faked his death and beat it out of dodge.

 

Yoeli's physical description is similar to Demandred's.

 

Yoeli is totally shady: he kept Rodel in Maradon at least twice when Rodel would have fled. Once even faking the fires from his "sister" that meant help was on the way. There was no help on the way. Rand came in through a gateway, and no one on the hill lit a fire for that.

 

Yoeli got off the wall at exactly the last minute before the dreadlord male channelers blew it up. He knew.

Bashere's boys found his corpse along with a small band of local Saldaens defending it.

[decrepid dragon]

Any chance of a link? I had a little look for that list and could not find it :(.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

thats the female stregth list, it was number 6 down google when I typed 'one power strength list'

 

 

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

 

 

i think emu on the loose described it best. Robert jordan could not top himself. He painted the forsaken as big bad ass villains who wreaked such havoc in the age of legends, a time when there was thousands of powerful channellers and then he completely flopped.

 

The only forsaken worth his salt was Rahvin. The rest including the much vaunted Ishamael/Moridin were completely useless. People should stop making excuses for the forsaken failures and simply should admit that RJ could not do justice to his own description of the forsaken

 

Also, as Bob T Dwarf mentioned somewhere, if the Forsaken had really used their power and knowledge to destabilize the world early on, no country would have been left standing by TFoH. Any non-DF leaders would have been killed (like Semirhage did in Seandar), a few DF uprisings, and the world would plunge into anarchy. At that point it's pretty much game over for the Light.

 

It's a problem in any story where technology or magic reach a certain power level.

 

-- dwn

 

AS I said earlier

And I feel that Randland couldn't be destroyed too much for TG, otherwise it wouldn't be able to resist an invasion of 1,000,000+ trollocs without having the WT/BT break out a 1000 to 1 kill ratio, which would just make us all go "Huh. Why the hell didn't the WT go and kill every single trolloc in the Blight centuries ago?" Or we would feel that the Dark One's servants were all useless, and he only has Shaidar Harran and Moridin along with Slayer to rely on, which would make it almost like HE was the mighty hero with trusted companions trying to survive against overwhelming numbers, not the other way around.

 

The big thing for the forsaken not destabalising every country is that they WANT power. If they were like the reavers out of the chronicals of Thomas Covenant or Ringwraiths it would make sense, but it has been stated many times they are people, even though they are extremely evil and competent. Besides which, taking over countries is precisely what they did during the AoL, and they were winning until LTT surprised attacked them at the bore. They would have no reason to suspect it would not work in this age.

 

And I disagree that Ishmael was completely useless. Anyone remember the large wound in Rands side that can't be healed? Or the fact that when he was killed in book 3 Rand had CALLANDOR in his hand? And that same callandor deflected balefire? Any other channeler would have been dead before they could say "oh shi-" Hardly a dissapointment. Besides which, he is insane. Its a directed insanity, but insanity none the less. And of course troloc wars/creation of seanchan all that jazz. Only Aginor has done better (yes Osan'gar, see my post a few up)

 

And it makes sense that they are getting killed easier and easier. The hero's are getting more competent and gaining more allies. Once upon a time there were epic mano-a-mano battles with Rand, but like with the battle against mesaana there were a couple dozen powerful combatants on each side, and Nynave was actually stronger than Mesaana in the OP anyway. Although yes Mesaana's death was cheap, and both Sammael and Semhirage were practically consigned to their deaths by the DO (Moridin intervention and TP).

 

Saying that any death of a forsaken due to a deus ex machina sounds a bit like a cop out to me, like Mesaana not being abe to run away due to dreamspike and take Egwene to the ambush location, as it would be ridiculous to expect every plot they make to come off perfectly, unless they were omnipotent beings. Very few of our hero's plans and ideas ever turn out right, at least not without some serious divergence (like instead of leaving with Elayne Mat gets stuck walking to Caemlyn for 3 books and get married on the way). If every forsakens plan went off right Rand would be dead a lot, Mat would have been killed by 6 Aiel when he was sleeping, and Perrin would have been killed by either Slayer, a whole bunch of trollocs in the two Rivers (probable), or a whole bunch of trollocs while he was surrounded by every fighting man left from Malden (The feeling I got was that the trollocs only outnumbered him 2-1, and we all know how much cannon fodder evil side troops are..)

 

The forsaken have done pretty well in my book. Just because they can't stand up to Rand or in brute strength doesn't mean they suck. (Sauron couldn't even stop a ring from being dropped by a hobbit, yet i doubt too many people would say he had no idea how to be an evil overlord.)

[Elan Tedronai]

Any chance of a link? I had a little look for that list and could not find it :(.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

thats the female stregth list, it was number 6 down google when I typed 'one power strength list'

 

 

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

 

 

i think emu on the loose described it best. Robert jordan could not top himself. He painted the forsaken as big bad ass villains who wreaked such havoc in the age of legends, a time when there was thousands of powerful channellers and then he completely flopped.

 

The only forsaken worth his salt was Rahvin. The rest including the much vaunted Ishamael/Moridin were completely useless. People should stop making excuses for the forsaken failures and simply should admit that RJ could not do justice to his own description of the forsaken

 

Also, as Bob T Dwarf mentioned somewhere, if the Forsaken had really used their power and knowledge to destabilize the world early on, no country would have been left standing by TFoH. Any non-DF leaders would have been killed (like Semirhage did in Seandar), a few DF uprisings, and the world would plunge into anarchy. At that point it's pretty much game over for the Light.

 

It's a problem in any story where technology or magic reach a certain power level.

 

-- dwn

 

AS I said earlier

And I feel that Randland couldn't be destroyed too much for TG, otherwise it wouldn't be able to resist an invasion of 1,000,000+ trollocs without having the WT/BT break out a 1000 to 1 kill ratio, which would just make us all go "Huh. Why the hell didn't the WT go and kill every single trolloc in the Blight centuries ago?" Or we would feel that the Dark One's servants were all useless, and he only has Shaidar Harran and Moridin along with Slayer to rely on, which would make it almost like HE was the mighty hero with trusted companions trying to survive against overwhelming numbers, not the other way around.

 

The big thing for the forsaken not destabalising every country is that they WANT power. If they were like the reavers out of the chronicals of Thomas Covenant or Ringwraiths it would make sense, but it has been stated many times they are people, even though they are extremely evil and competent. Besides which, taking over countries is precisely what they did during the AoL, and they were winning until LTT surprised attacked them at the bore. They would have no reason to suspect it would not work in this age.

 

And I disagree that Ishmael was completely useless. Anyone remember the large wound in Rands side that can't be healed? Or the fact that when he was killed in book 3 Rand had CALLANDOR in his hand? And that same callandor deflected balefire? Any other channeler would have been dead before they could say "oh shi-" Hardly a dissapointment. Besides which, he is insane. Its a directed insanity, but insanity none the less. And of course troloc wars/creation of seanchan all that jazz. Only Aginor has done better (yes Osan'gar, see my post a few up)

 

And it makes sense that they are getting killed easier and easier. The hero's are getting more competent and gaining more allies. Once upon a time there were epic mano-a-mano battles with Rand, but like with the battle against mesaana there were a couple dozen powerful combatants on each side, and Nynave was actually stronger than Mesaana in the OP anyway. Although yes Mesaana's death was cheap, and both Sammael and Semhirage were practically consigned to their deaths by the DO (Moridin intervention and TP).

 

Saying that any death of a forsaken due to a deus ex machina sounds a bit like a cop out to me, like Mesaana not being abe to run away due to dreamspike and take Egwene to the ambush location, as it would be ridiculous to expect every plot they make to come off perfectly, unless they were omnipotent beings. Very few of our hero's plans and ideas ever turn out right, at least not without some serious divergence (like instead of leaving with Elayne Mat gets stuck walking to Caemlyn for 3 books and get married on the way). If every forsakens plan went off right Rand would be dead a lot, Mat would have been killed by 6 Aiel when he was sleeping, and Perrin would have been killed by either Slayer, a whole bunch of trollocs in the two Rivers (probable), or a whole bunch of trollocs while he was surrounded by every fighting man left from Malden (The feeling I got was that the trollocs only outnumbered him 2-1, and we all know how much cannon fodder evil side troops are..)

 

The forsaken have done pretty well in my book. Just because they can't stand up to Rand or in brute strength doesn't mean they suck. (Sauron couldn't even stop a ring from being dropped by a hobbit, yet i doubt too many people would say he had no idea how to be an evil overlord.)

 

 

the fact of the matter is the supposed 13 most powerful aes sedai who turned to the dark one in AOL in an age where channellers were dime a dozen have all been rendered useless. Not one single forsaken actually took out any of the major charcaters save for Rahvin. These 13 guys who caused LTT and his generals so much stress are dying like flies to 3rd agers. The fact that their boss the dark one is a fool with no game plan in sight actually does not help but yeah you get my point.

 

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once. The shadow are just useless. end off. AMOL is going to be a walkover. seal the bore and goodbye

[nleseul]

It becomes apparent that they were caricatures, or some kind of epitome of a vice. Almost none of them were complicated, or even had an interesting personality. George R.R. Martin has written some incredibly complicated villains that you even learn are not villains at all.

 

I've realized recently that this really is one of the biggest omissions in WoT. There isn't a single villain in the series for whom the reader is given a fully-realized backstory that explains what makes the Shadow so appealing. We have little thumbnail sketches for most of the Forsaken, but they pretty much all assume that they were bad people to begin with, and that they were just waiting for the Bore to be opened so they could jump over. Most of the Forsaken—and pretty much all of the lesser DFs—just have "greed" or "power" or "jealousy" for a motivation, and those just aren't credible on their own. It's a very hand-wavey way of explaining evil.

 

Interestingly enough, the closest thing the series has to an initially good person being persuaded that serving the Shadow is seriously in his best interest is Rand.

[nleseul]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

[Orderofolde]

One thing I enjoy about Sanderson's style is that something major happens in just about every chapter, where that was never the case in previous installments.  The constant climaxes keep the book interesting, but each feels less like a payoff when we have so many in succession.  

I know the feeling but to be fair I don't think Sanderson had a choice. There were so many loose ends he had to tie up before the last battle could begin... it's insane. He's been solving tons of stuff that had been unresolved for quite a number of books and there's still enough content left for the last book. Nothing he can do about it. I suppose the problem is that Jordan didn't bother finishing any of the plot lines at all during his last 3-4 books.

 

This is why I think that Jordan could never have finished Wheel of Time with just "one more book" (which was his plan). Sanderson is already giving us a very condensed version full of climaxes and it's still filling three books. I actually wouldn't even mind if he decided to split the last book again. But maybe that's just my "The Series is over soon"-angst.

 

 

 

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Demandred has been built up to be Lews Therin's rival. And the principal Shadow general. And the guy who joined the Shadow for one reason alone:

 

 

I don't think Rand will be able to fight the Dark One head-on either. Which is why the lack of any strong and dangerous villains left in the books worries me a bit. I'm not really looking forward to a last chapter that consists of descriptions of how Rand channels the one power to close the Bore again. 

 

Regarding Demandred... I don't know... the guy never seemed very interesting to me. He was built up to be the main villain, the general of the shadow? Well, duh... how about he starts actually doing something then? He's been in the shadows for 13 books now which didn't really lead to me thinking he's badass.

I was always under the impression that Ishy was the main guy to be worried about, I mean, even as Moridin, he's still the DO's favorite. Demandred had an early role posing as (Dashiva, iirc?) trying to kill Rand in the Sun Palace. But we've only seen him in meetings and nothing else since.

[Kahlika]

I was always under the impression that Ishy was the main guy to be worried about, I mean, even as Moridin, he's still the DO's favorite. Demandred had an early role posing as (Dashiva, iirc?) trying to kill Rand in the Sun Palace. But we've only seen him in meetings and nothing else since.

 

Dashiva was Aginor. Demandred had not been seen "on camera" as anyone other than Demandred up to KoD.

[Vexorian]

In regards to Demandred...

 

I think he is in control of the Seanchan mainland. In the 1st chapter it said "a murderer ruled openly in Seanar."

And it was said by Demandred that his rule was secure. Now around that time could be when he took full control over Saenar; so it could have worked out as far as timelines are cocerned. Also I'm pretty sure he would have had to murder some people to take control. I mean it just doesn't seem to likely that he is somewhere else. Shara doesn't make sense since we havn't seen any of it all 13 books. The only other place he could be would be pulling strings at the BT. But that just seems off since he also said he was preparing armies for war and I wouldn't say the BT was preparing for war...

 

And lets just say he was in control of the Seanchan across the ocean. And now he comes and attacks the Seanchan forces under Fortuana. Then after this Rand decides to help defeat Demandred. It would create a pretty good reason for Fortuana to finally get her head out of her ass and help fight the Shadow.

 

Just my two cents. :)

[WhiskyJack]

The Forsaken are getting wiped out too easy. The only great battles between Hero and Villain so far for me was against Asmodean and Rahvin. Mesaana definately got taken too easy, I barely even understood what happened there..

 

 

i think emu on the loose described it best. Robert jordan could not top himself. He painted the forsaken as big bad ass villains who wreaked such havoc in the age of legends, a time when there was thousands of powerful channellers and then he completely flopped.

 

 

 

 

Actually the idea of scary forsaken was mostly in the minds of current day Randlanders. We don't have any record that proves that forsaken were any less pathetic in AOL then they are now. 3000 years is long long time (especially since all of your history is lost) to make a devil out of even Asmo.

[unJon]

I'm thinking Demandred is Yoeli and that Yoeli death was falsely reported. When Rand showed up, it destroyed Yoeli's plans to totally destroy Rodel's army, but escape with Rodel, winning his way into a trusted general for the side of Light. So he faked his death and beat it out of dodge.

 

Yoeli's physical description is similar to Demandred's.

 

Yoeli is totally shady: he kept Rodel in Maradon at least twice when Rodel would have fled. Once even faking the fires from his "sister" that meant help was on the way. There was no help on the way. Rand came in through a gateway, and no one on the hill lit a fire for that.

 

Yoeli got off the wall at exactly the last minute before the dreadlord male channelers blew it up. He knew.

Bashere's boys found his corpse along with a small band of local Saldaens defending it.

So someone says . . .

 

ETA: or if you prefer, Demandred had the real Yoeli locked away in some basement, and killed him and left him in the street before fleeing.

[Sabio]

Yeah Mesaana was huge disappointment, her end was lame. Some mind battle that turns her into some brain dead child that soils herself. Can't see how the DO should be proud of his choosen. Demandred has been doing the best and that becuase he is hiding forming a army in Murandy. Thats right I still claim that is where is is at. Fain would make a better Forsaken then any of the current ones.

[WhiskyJack]

I'm thinking Demandred is Yoeli and that Yoeli death was falsely reported. When Rand showed up, it destroyed Yoeli's plans to totally destroy Rodel's army, but escape with Rodel, winning his way into a trusted general for the side of Light. So he faked his death and beat it out of dodge.

 

Yoeli's physical description is similar to Demandred's.

 

Yoeli is totally shady: he kept Rodel in Maradon at least twice when Rodel would have fled. Once even faking the fires from his "sister" that meant help was on the way. There was no help on the way. Rand came in through a gateway, and no one on the hill lit a fire for that.

 

Yoeli got off the wall at exactly the last minute before the dreadlord male channelers blew it up. He knew.

Bashere's boys found his corpse along with a small band of local Saldaens defending it.

So someone says . . .

 

ETA: or if you prefer, Demandred had the real Yoeli locked away in some basement, and killed him and left him in the street before fleeing.

 

 

Exactly. Demandred has been finally found!

[didymos]

Yeah Mesaana was huge disappointment, her end was lame. Some mind battle that turns her into some brain dead child that soils herself. Can't see how the DO should be proud of his choosen.

 

Uh, she came this close to completely ruining the White Tower. That was some decent evildoing.

 

Sometimes, it seems like everyone is so insistent that every Forsaken must take part in some crazy-insane OP duel, or they're worthless. That and they should be able to accomplish things on the same scale as they did in the AoL when pretty much none of the conditions that applied back then still apply in the present. They no longer have massive, high-tech armies at their disposal. The Shadow is nowhere near as well-supplied as back then. They lack the industrial capacity and ubiquitous OP tech that existed back then, both of which allowed for the Shadow to actually openly govern and hold vast territories and also to breed enormous hordes of Shadowspawn. They no longer have the ability to move military forces around and keep them supplied the way the once could. They completely lack effective and widespread long-distance communications. Human populations in the Third Age are minuscule compared to the AoL. All that shit requires infrastructure, and it went bye-bye about three-thousand years ago. Not to mention, the DO isn't able to exercise the same amount of power over the world that he once could, because the seal is still partially intact.

 

Yet, despite all that, they've still collectively managed to make a complete mess of things in Randland time and time again.

[remylevin]

I’m afraid the vast majority of you have it completely wrong when you criticize the FS. They’re not bad villains—they’ve been great villains. I think your mistakes stem from two fundamental misunderstandings about the books:

 

First, as RJ made clear over and over and over again, the big fight between good and evil in the books is taking place on two levels simultaneously. The first level is the obvious one: wars and shadowspawn and things that go BOOM. The second level is about subverting the champion of the light (Rand) to the dark side. If you don’t believe me, think about the numerous clues that are sprinkled throughout the series: the “chess” game (what was it called again?) that Moridin plays in one of the earlier books, in which the best way to win is to make the “fisher” piece (i.e. Rand) switch to your side; Verin’s musings in TGS that Rand doesn’t realize how the game is actually being played; the DO allowing Semirhage to be killed by TP balefire; etc., etc. etc. So, when we evaluate the FS’s accomplishments, we should first evaluate how well they’ve, basically, driven Rand to (the brink of) insanity and switching sides. Let’s do that, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: the big kahuna-multiple attempts early on to subvert Rand to the dark by tempting him with power, threatening him, using the ghost of his mother etc. Realized his direct efforts weren’t working after Rand killed him for the third time, took a step back from direct involvement and let the other FS take the lead in this fight.

Lanfear: also tried to tempt Rand early on directly, using promises of sex and power. Again, when direct temptation failed, the dark switched to other tactics to subvert Rand, namely, causing him as much physical and psychological pain as possible. In Lanfear’s case, this translated into torturing Rand and women he cared about directly for a while, then robbing him (though not intentionally) of his main advisor, the one teacher and Aes Sedai he was finally learning to trust, Moiraine. Also, throw in the guilt that Rand ends up feeling, both over the death of Moiraine and his role in it (i.e., did not stop Lanfear when he could have), and we have a major step towards hardening/turning Rand to the dark by Lanfear. Now, perhaps, a new major role in this fight.

Mesaana behind the plot to put Rand in a box and torture him for days and days. During this time is when Rand’s psyche takes on the definite downward spiral that we see all the way to the end of TGS. Note that in the box Rand starts to directly communicate with LTT, who is the avatar of his psychosis in the series.

Sammael his final battle with Rand takes Rand back to SL, where he kills Leah (sp?) out of mercy, yet another action he agonizes about since. Also responsible for the deaths of maidens that were protecting Rand during the battle of Cairhien, deaths Rand feels guilty about.

Semirhage probably the most successful FS in this respect, except maybe Ishi who is directing everything from behind the scenes. Takes Rand’s hand. Sows doubts in the hearts of Rand’s followers and in his own heart as to his sanity. Pushes Rand over the edge into evil territory by torturing him in the worst possible way that you could torture Rand/LTT-making him (almost) kill a woman he loves. Puts Rand in such a box that he finally reaches to the only tool that is available to him-the DO. Pretty much manages to turn Rand to the dark (think all the food spoiling when he’s around in Arad Doman), if not for Tam and the revelation in VoG.

Demaandred hmmm…not sure, but probably had role with Mesaana in the Dumai Wells/torture of Rand debacle.

Asmodean, Be’lal, Aginor, Belthamel, Rahvin, Graendal, Moghedien not a whole lot in this respect. Too busy fighting the other aspect of the war (see below) or trying to hurt Rand by taking out his friends (trying to kill Mat, Nyn, Perrin etc.)

 

Second, you’re misunderstanding the odds that FS face in the more conventional war (the one with shadowspawn and armies and things that go BOOM.) In the beginning of the series, Randland was in the perfect position for the Dragon/emperor of the world to use in TG: most of the nations of the world were led by, and composed of, non-DFs; they were just weak/divided enough to yield to a figure like the Dragon who would unify them, but strong enough to contribute tremendous military forces to the fight against the shadow. The WT was unified and working (mostly) as a unified force against the shadow. Here are the odds the FS faced: 13 super-powerful/knowledgeable channelers+some DFs+shadowspawn v. ALL OF HUMANITY (which includes hundreds, maybe thousands of channelers.) Let’s see what they accomplished in light of these long odds, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: pulling all the strings from the darkness. Set up the BA, maintained the coterie of DFs, sowed division amongst the world’s nations, and stopped them from being unified in one great, strong empire. Also, probably behind the creation of the legions and legions of shadowspawn in the blight.

Asmodean created a major rift in the Aiel, with tremendous consequences.

Mesaana caused a schism in the WT, probably the worst blow the shadow made against the unified forces of the light.

Sammael took over Illian, a major nation. Dispersed Shaido to the four winds to cause trouble, which they have beyond measure.

Semirhage again, very consequential role. Wiped out any chance of reinforcements for the light from the Seanchan empire; likely behind the aggressive stance of the Seanchan towards Rand and the other nations.

Be’lal took over Tear, a major nation.

Rahvin took over Andor, a major nation; destroyed the monarchy there. This is especially significant since Andor was probably the nation with the most capacity to help the Dragon in his fight in the beginning of the books. Instead it’s devolved into infighting for the whole series.

Graendal basically destroyed Arad Doman through scheming. Neutralized one of the great captains (Ituralde) by sending him against the Seanchan; responsible for countless deaths among potential light-side forces in Arad Doman, Tarabon and Seanchan.

Belthamel tried to manipulate Egwene/rebel AS (failed).

Demaandred hmmm…again, I wish I knew. Probably behind the BT, which could be the most devastating move in this aspect of the war that the shadow has (think LOTS of stuff that goes BOOM!!) Perhaps behind Masema. And also, probably, behind the borderlanders abandoning their posts.

Aginor, Moghedien, Lanfear not a whole lot in this respect.

 

So you see, it’s not that the FS have not accomplished much despite their promise. The story indicates that they have accomplished a s**t-ton despite really long odds. You’re mistaking a lack of direct screen time for a lack of accomplishments. In reality, almost everything bad that has happened in the story (and there has been a lot of that) has happened through their handiwork-we just get to see the results, not their immediate actions.

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

A nice analysis based on a faulty premise - to wit: The Dark must fight a war.

 

That was true in the AoL when peace and prosperity was the order of the day, where discord, fear, and hate had to be created.

 

It's no longer true in the Third Age where discord, fear and hate is everywhere. All the Dark needs to do is to prevent the Light from presenting any effective opposition. Simplest, easiest way to do that is to do exactly what Semirhage did in Seandar. Kill off the government of every nation, and power bloc leaving them to tie themselves in knots fighting civil wars for the succession. Once the DO is free, pick up whatever pieces you want. Impose whatever rule you like. ( assuming the DO leaves anything or anyone in existence )

 

But, they've all got Evil Overlord Brainlock. Everything they do only creates more effective opposition, not less. More effective foes, not less.

 

 

Let's see, I've been promised nearly ultimate power and immortality. I will be free to do whatever I like so long as my patron is free and at his maximum power.

 

So, how should I proceed? Free patron? Indulge self? Free Patron? Indulge self? ...

 

I know, I'll seize some random nation and live a life of complete indulgence, helping everyone who is not evil to solidify in opposition to not just me but my patron, too.

 

Yea! That's the ticket!

 

NOT.

[Agitel]

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

A nice analysis based on a faulty premise - to wit: The Dark must fight a war.

 

That was true in the AoL when peace and prosperity was the order of the day, where discord, fear, and hate had to be created.

 

It's no longer true in the Third Age where discord, fear and hate is everywhere. All the Dark needs to do is to prevent the Light from presenting any effective opposition. Simplest, easiest way to do that is to do exactly what Semirhage did in Seandar. Kill off the government of every nation, and power bloc leaving them to tie themselves in knots fighting civil wars for the succession. Once the DO is free, pick up whatever pieces you want. Impose whatever rule you like. ( assuming the DO leaves anything or anyone in existence )

 

But, they've all got Evil Overlord Brainlock. Everything they do only creates more effective opposition, not less. More effective foes, not less.

 

 

Let's see, I've been promised nearly ultimate power and immortality. I will be free to do whatever I like so long as my patron is free and at his maximum power.

 

So, how should I proceed? Free patron? Indulge self? Free Patron? Indulge self? ...

 

I know, I'll seize some random nation and live a life of complete indulgence, helping everyone who is not evil to solidify in opposition to not just me but my patron, too.

 

Yea! That's the ticket!

 

NOT.

 

Freeing the DO would destroy the Pattern and existence. The DO hasn't shared that little secret with them, so the way to free him, by destroying everything, isn't known to them, and if they did know, they'd switch sides in a heartbeat. They're all being manipulated, aside from Moridin.

 

So either the Light is defeated in a long and bloody drawn out war in which all resistance is destroyed and the DO can continue to slowly unravel the Pattern until he destroys it all (Plan B) and risk the Forsaken realizing what is happening and then working agains thim as well, or he can manipulate the Dragon into despair and madness and make him do the dirty work for him without the hassle of a long drawn out war (Plan A). Only Moridin is in on Plan A. And all the other Forsaken don't understand everything about Plan B. They think the DO is a conqueror who wants to rule the world, not destroy it.

[Elan Tedronai]

I’m afraid the vast majority of you have it completely wrong when you criticize the FS. They’re not bad villains—they’ve been great villains. I think your mistakes stem from two fundamental misunderstandings about the books:

 

First, as RJ made clear over and over and over again, the big fight between good and evil in the books is taking place on two levels simultaneously. The first level is the obvious one: wars and shadowspawn and things that go BOOM. The second level is about subverting the champion of the light (Rand) to the dark side. If you don’t believe me, think about the numerous clues that are sprinkled throughout the series: the “chess” game (what was it called again?) that Moridin plays in one of the earlier books, in which the best way to win is to make the “fisher” piece (i.e. Rand) switch to your side; Verin’s musings in TGS that Rand doesn’t realize how the game is actually being played; the DO allowing Semirhage to be killed by TP balefire; etc., etc. etc. So, when we evaluate the FS’s accomplishments, we should first evaluate how well they’ve, basically, driven Rand to (the brink of) insanity and switching sides. Let’s do that, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: the big kahuna-multiple attempts early on to subvert Rand to the dark by tempting him with power, threatening him, using the ghost of his mother etc. Realized his direct efforts weren’t working after Rand killed him for the third time, took a step back from direct involvement and let the other FS take the lead in this fight.

Lanfear: also tried to tempt Rand early on directly, using promises of sex and power. Again, when direct temptation failed, the dark switched to other tactics to subvert Rand, namely, causing him as much physical and psychological pain as possible. In Lanfear’s case, this translated into torturing Rand and women he cared about directly for a while, then robbing him (though not intentionally) of his main advisor, the one teacher and Aes Sedai he was finally learning to trust, Moiraine. Also, throw in the guilt that Rand ends up feeling, both over the death of Moiraine and his role in it (i.e., did not stop Lanfear when he could have), and we have a major step towards hardening/turning Rand to the dark by Lanfear. Now, perhaps, a new major role in this fight.

Mesaana behind the plot to put Rand in a box and torture him for days and days. During this time is when Rand’s psyche takes on the definite downward spiral that we see all the way to the end of TGS. Note that in the box Rand starts to directly communicate with LTT, who is the avatar of his psychosis in the series.

Sammael his final battle with Rand takes Rand back to SL, where he kills Leah (sp?) out of mercy, yet another action he agonizes about since. Also responsible for the deaths of maidens that were protecting Rand during the battle of Cairhien, deaths Rand feels guilty about.

Semirhage probably the most successful FS in this respect, except maybe Ishi who is directing everything from behind the scenes. Takes Rand’s hand. Sows doubts in the hearts of Rand’s followers and in his own heart as to his sanity. Pushes Rand over the edge into evil territory by torturing him in the worst possible way that you could torture Rand/LTT-making him (almost) kill a woman he loves. Puts Rand in such a box that he finally reaches to the only tool that is available to him-the DO. Pretty much manages to turn Rand to the dark (think all the food spoiling when he’s around in Arad Doman), if not for Tam and the revelation in VoG.

Demaandred hmmm…not sure, but probably had role with Mesaana in the Dumai Wells/torture of Rand debacle.

Asmodean, Be’lal, Aginor, Belthamel, Rahvin, Graendal, Moghedien not a whole lot in this respect. Too busy fighting the other aspect of the war (see below) or trying to hurt Rand by taking out his friends (trying to kill Mat, Nyn, Perrin etc.)

 

Second, you’re misunderstanding the odds that FS face in the more conventional war (the one with shadowspawn and armies and things that go BOOM.) In the beginning of the series, Randland was in the perfect position for the Dragon/emperor of the world to use in TG: most of the nations of the world were led by, and composed of, non-DFs; they were just weak/divided enough to yield to a figure like the Dragon who would unify them, but strong enough to contribute tremendous military forces to the fight against the shadow. The WT was unified and working (mostly) as a unified force against the shadow. Here are the odds the FS faced: 13 super-powerful/knowledgeable channelers+some DFs+shadowspawn v. ALL OF HUMANITY (which includes hundreds, maybe thousands of channelers.) Let’s see what they accomplished in light of these long odds, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: pulling all the strings from the darkness. Set up the BA, maintained the coterie of DFs, sowed division amongst the world’s nations, and stopped them from being unified in one great, strong empire. Also, probably behind the creation of the legions and legions of shadowspawn in the blight.

Asmodean created a major rift in the Aiel, with tremendous consequences.

Mesaana caused a schism in the WT, probably the worst blow the shadow made against the unified forces of the light.

Sammael took over Illian, a major nation. Dispersed Shaido to the four winds to cause trouble, which they have beyond measure.

Semirhage again, very consequential role. Wiped out any chance of reinforcements for the light from the Seanchan empire; likely behind the aggressive stance of the Seanchan towards Rand and the other nations.

Be’lal took over Tear, a major nation.

Rahvin took over Andor, a major nation; destroyed the monarchy there. This is especially significant since Andor was probably the nation with the most capacity to help the Dragon in his fight in the beginning of the books. Instead it’s devolved into infighting for the whole series.

Graendal basically destroyed Arad Doman through scheming. Neutralized one of the great captains (Ituralde) by sending him against the Seanchan; responsible for countless deaths among potential light-side forces in Arad Doman, Tarabon and Seanchan.

Belthamel tried to manipulate Egwene/rebel AS (failed).

Demaandred hmmm…again, I wish I knew. Probably behind the BT, which could be the most devastating move in this aspect of the war that the shadow has (think LOTS of stuff that goes BOOM!!) Perhaps behind Masema. And also, probably, behind the borderlanders abandoning their posts.

Aginor, Moghedien, Lanfear not a whole lot in this respect.

 

So you see, it’s not that the FS have not accomplished much despite their promise. The story indicates that they have accomplished a s**t-ton despite really long odds. You’re mistaking a lack of direct screen time for a lack of accomplishments. In reality, almost everything bad that has happened in the story (and there has been a lot of that) has happened through their handiwork-we just get to see the results, not their immediate actions.

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

In the end results speak for themselves and all forsaken plots has amounted to nothing. In the war of power the forsaken continous victories has led to lews therin final act of desperation which resulted in the male half of the source being tainted and him killing his own flesh and blood.

 

In the third age all the forsaken plots have been rectified. With almost all of them getting wasted in the process. They have sunk into cannon fodder territory

[Elan Tedronai]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

[WhiskyJack]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

[nleseul]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

 

Well, I would have made the same point, but we did just see the gholam get kicked through a Skimming gate without any apparent harm to it.

 

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

[Elan Tedronai]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

 

Well, I would have made the same point, but we did just see the gholam get kicked through a Skimming gate without any apparent harm to it.

 

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

 

moment's notice? the forsaken were aware of rand's plot to clean saidin. Infact they had a huge meeting about it. Where moridin said you will take him or kill him referring to rand. which by the way does not even make sense as he helped rand against sammael. Which again brings me back to how stupid the shadow are!

[remylevin]

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

A nice analysis based on a faulty premise - to wit: The Dark must fight a war.

 

That was true in the AoL when peace and prosperity was the order of the day, where discord, fear, and hate had to be created.

 

It's no longer true in the Third Age where discord, fear and hate is everywhere. All the Dark needs to do is to prevent the Light from presenting any effective opposition. Simplest, easiest way to do that is to do exactly what Semirhage did in Seandar. Kill off the government of every nation, and power bloc leaving them to tie themselves in knots fighting civil wars for the succession. Once the DO is free, pick up whatever pieces you want. Impose whatever rule you like. ( assuming the DO leaves anything or anyone in existence )

 

But, they've all got Evil Overlord Brainlock. Everything they do only creates more effective opposition, not less. More effective foes, not less.

 

 

Let's see, I've been promised nearly ultimate power and immortality. I will be free to do whatever I like so long as my patron is free and at his maximum power.

 

So, how should I proceed? Free patron? Indulge self? Free Patron? Indulge self? ...

 

I know, I'll seize some random nation and live a life of complete indulgence, helping everyone who is not evil to solidify in opposition to not just me but my patron, too.

 

Yea! That's the ticket!

 

NOT.

 

your objection to my analysis would be correct, if the Dragon did not exist. As I mentioned, the nations being in chaos was (potentially) the perfect situation for a great emperor/unifier figure to come in and unite (this is exactly why the Seanchan have been so successful.) Had the FS not continued to sow chaos, Rand (and/or the WT) would have united all of the nations behind him by now. Therefore, a strategy of "Go in, execute all leaders, leave" wouldn't have worked for the shadow. A much better strategy (one the shadow has actually followed) was to divert potential light-side allies to fighting with one another. This is the whole point behind the FS taking over nations. Oh, and in the meantime, hurt the Messiah/unifier enough that he actually becomes a force for the shadow. Highly effective strategy that almost worked.

[Sabio]

True they have caused some Chaos, destroying Seachean homeland, dividing the Aiel, spillting the Aes Sedai, kidnapping Rand. But ultimatley nothing has really come from that. All their grand plots have failed. Aiel follow Rand, white tower united again, all plans to kill the main characters failed, Rand hasn't turned to the darkside, BA in hiding, and most have had their butts handed to them by these "backward inferiors".

 

And these were just the most powerful of the choosen. Nothing saying their were more uber powerful then the good Aes Sedai at the time. They jusy had alot more resources at their disposal and would do anything to win. They are just considered like gods in this time because of their knowledge of what can be done with the power. But most are just arrogant and power hungry not taking the folks of the current age as a threat. Its this arrogance which leads them to under estimate this age.

[Kidicaris]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

 

Well, I would have made the same point, but we did just see the gholam get kicked through a Skimming gate without any apparent harm to it.

 

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

 

moment's notice? the forsaken were aware of rand's plot to clean saidin. Infact they had a huge meeting about it. Where moridin said you will take him or kill him referring to rand. which by the way does not even make sense as he helped rand against sammael. Which again brings me back to how stupid the shadow are!

 

Well, I think the DO and Ishamael are playing a slightly different game than the rest of the Shadow. It's been pretty clear the former are operating on a higher level, with a goal of converting Rand and breaking the Wheel of Time, while the latter are focused on world domination and earthly desires. But in the end, the DO and Ishamael would take a default victory with Rand killed, over being resealed for how many more millennia it takes for another fool to drill the bore again. Rand's death would be no full victory though, since the wheel would continue to spin and eventually spin out the Dragon again with his clique of heroes to fight and possibly seal the bore. It's an endless cycle of Light and Dark that first convinced Elan Morin Tedronai to turn to go to the Shadow and become Ishamael.

 

Editing in that I am not defending the Forsaken, they were poorly written and disappointing. Liandrin was far more dangerous and menacing feeling than most of them.