Elayne's Arc

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't think anyone is thinking that she has to fight with Birgitte and her midwife all the time.

 

Running risks when it has to be run and you are the only one who can do it? Necessary.

 

Runnings risks, no matter how slight, when there's no need and there are others who can do it? not smart. Doing it when you know your head of security would object, but is conveniently not there? Childish.

 

Why not have one of the Kin do it? I dont' even know that Birgitte would object to the plan to question them that way, but I'm sure she would have had more guards in the area.

 

OK. So, who's this infallible source of all knowledge? Who is it that knows precisely when a risk has to be run? Who is it who knows when Elayne is the only one who can take that chance? Who is it that infallibly judges that this was something one of the Kin could handle?

 

What is Elayne going to do that her head of security won't object to? Take a bath? She could have a spasm and drown. There simply is nothing that Elayne can do that Birgitte won't find fault with. That's her job. Warder/Security Chief has a job description of being a professional paranoiac. The job is to take precautions against everything. Whether it's likely or not. Whether it's even possible or not.

 

Nothing she can possibly do is safe anymore. If this truly is The Last Battle, safe doesn't exist anymore. It's down to Do or Die.

 

 

I should be clear - I like Elayne. I like all the main characters. I think they are all strong characters who have quirks and who are still learning. They are a lot wiser and stronger than I was at their age.

 

I doubt we'll agree on this, ever. I will say that Elayne is agreeing to reign herself in.

 

I'll also say that the Forsaken keep getting killed in large part because they underestimate the forces of light (and, of course, what the Dark One actually wants). There have been several Dark Friend channelers captured throughout the series - generally, someone rescues them. Is it bad luck that it happened right then? Sure. But then, if she had Birgitte and more guards on duty nearby, she probably wouldn't have gotten stabbed.

[Charlz Guybon]

maradon was salvaged enough, and since there is a strong choke point outside of maradon so the city doesnt matter much.

 

Kandor is the lynch pin since it was weaker link in the chain. with kandor fallen it opens up the possibility for flanking actions

I meant lynchpin of Saldea, not the border.

 

I've always assumed Aragfel is the weakest since we know virtually nothing about it.

[Danvighar]

Stepping away from the BA interrogation for a minute....

 

I kinda thought to myself, in the Sun Throne scene, that maybe Birgitte sleight-of-handed that needle in order to have an excuse to sit on the throne first. A bit of payback/tweaking Elayne's nose.

 

Elayne did seem to alternate amongst silly, sensible, and stupid, and back to sensible, often several times in a single conversation. Which made it harder to enjoy her sections.

 

I think my biggest frustration with her in this book is that her focus seems to be ENTIRELY on 'Andor after the Last Battle', with little or no thought to 'how can Andor help to win the Last Battle'.

 

I may have misinterpreted her focus - that's why I used 'seems to be' rather than 'is' just in case I am misremembering after a quick read of the book and far too much time reading the opinions of people who didn't read it carefully. But if I remember it rightly... 'tis more than a little frustrating. Yes, you have to remember to plan for after. But you should spare at least a little thought towards surviving (beyond your children's birth) to use those plans.

[Crael123]

I havent finished the book but I have to say Elayne has been cracking me up for whatever reason hahaha i am starting to like her again!

 

I got the book yesterday, It isnt that i am a slow reader hahaha

[l_uniquefeuille]

I think Elayne is characterised as the knowledgeable but headstrong and immature girl that she is. She is immature, and hence jumps into things.

 

The last time I got riled up at her were:

 

1. When she presumes that Nyneave is lying about Lan being sweet and romantic(? or something similar). I mean I felt, what right she had to presume about how Nyneave's husband might or might not be(and she was lying about him) when her own lover was going mad.

But my sister seemed to think, she was merely acting her age.

 

2. When she gets not only herself injured, but gets Vandene and other Aes Sedai killed because of her impulsive actions. At least she gets wiser in this book.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think she is thinking about the last battle. I mean, she kept the mercenaries around, she's given Cairhien a leader to look to and, no matter how you feel about the BA interrogation, it was designed to find out more about what the bad guys are doing. And she has the cannons in place and figured out a way for there to be no questions about Perrin from her own people, which is pretty important since she's going to ask those people to risk death very soon...

 

I do agree, there is a lot of thought to after...

[randsc]

Elayne is entitled (figuratively, not just literally), somewhat arrogant, impulsive and slightly (by WOT standards) sexist.

 

But what she is, as a character, is a perfectly predictable product of her upbringing.

 

She's entitled. That is irritating. She feels that that she has a right to command. But, after all, she grew up as a princess and presumptive queen. Of course she's entitled. Note: this doesn't mean you have to like her. I don't, particularly. I have strong democratic impulses. That's one of the best things about the Two Rivers, IMO. It is actually a little disappointing to see the TR characters so eager to have a Lord.

 

She's arrogant. Yes, she is. But her arrogance isn't as irritating as that of, say, Egwene. Again, she grew up a princess. And, while her public persona may be as arrogant as Egwene, her POVs demonstrate some capacity for reflection and self-criticism. Which qualities are almost entirely absent from Egwene's POVs.

 

She's impulsive. Undeniable, I think, and has caused most of the problems with the BA, etc. People have complained that Mat (for example) is equally impulsive, and people don't get on him for it. Well, I do dislike that about Mat sometimes, actually. But there is a differnce, to me. Elayne has a Warder. Two, actually. She knows what it means to those Warders if she dies. And one of those Warders is the SOLE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE! So when she risks her neck, she risks EVERYTHING. In those circumstances, her neck isn't hers to risk. Want freedom of action? Don't bond the Dragon Reborn. But she's a kid, and her POVs indicate that she can learn from her mistakes. The word, "ruefully" is used to describe her thoughts, on several occasions.

 

She's sexist. Well, all of the WOT women are, or at least start off that way. And Elayne grew up in a society where only a woman can rule, and in a family where the males were always aware of that and expected to defer. It is hard to blame her for some residual sexism, as long as she is working on it. And again, she has a lot less of it (in spite of better reason, given her upbringing) than Egwene.

 

So by and large, while I don't care for Elayne, I'm willing to give her more of a pass than some other characters. She grew up with biases, and is shown to be slowly overcoming them. That is a whole lot better, IMO, than growing up without these biases and quickly adopting them.

 

That haveing been said,there are some problems.

 

1. You can count me among those who don't think she has done enough to protect Andor from an invasion she knows is coming. Don't talk to me about increasing border defenses. If Barack Obama had notice of a planned invasion of the United States, adding a few more Border Patrol agents would not excuse him transporting virtually the entirety of the US military to Botswana for a meeting.

 

2. She seems a little shakey on the responsibility of rulers to the ruled. And this is a real change, one I find distasteful. In the earlier books, Elayne was keenly aware of this responsibility, and even lectured other characters about it. But now she is behaving as a feudal monarach who has forgotten the basic social contract of feudalism. The entire system is built on mutual obligations. If she has failed in her obligations, her people owe her nothing. You want to rule the Two Rivers, Elayne? Well than when trollocs and Whitecloaks appear, the Queen's Guard had better be right behind. Having given nothing to the Two Rivers, she has no right to expect anything from the Two Rivers. And don't give me any crap about needing to maintain the territorial integrity of Andor. She's giving away a hunk of the country to the Sea Folk to further her own ends. And a very visible (if small) chunk. So there is no way that allowing the Two Rivers, which hasn't seen a guardsman or tax collector in generations, to go its own way is setting any precedent that hasn't already been set.

 

3. She really should have told other people, including Mat, about losing the Foxhead copies. That is a major screw-up, and she needs to make sure all light-siders and most especially those who might be able to do something about it (e.g., Mat) know about it.

 

I don't like Elayne. In a just world, she would be deposed and an elected government set up in her place. But I can understand her. Unlike certain other characters (*cough* Egwene *cough*).

[smileyman]

 

2. She seems a little shakey on the responsibility of rulers to the ruled. And this is a real change, one I find distasteful. In the earlier books, Elayne was keenly aware of this responsibility, and even lectured other characters about it. But now she is behaving as a feudal monarach who has forgotten the basic social contract of feudalism. The entire system is built on mutual obligations. If she has failed in her obligations, her people owe her nothing. You want to rule the Two Rivers, Elayne? Well than when trollocs and Whitecloaks appear, the Queen's Guard had better be right behind. Having given nothing to the Two Rivers, she has no right to expect anything from the Two Rivers. And don't give me any crap about needing to maintain the territorial integrity of Andor. She's giving away a hunk of the country to the Sea Folk to further her own ends. And a very visible (if small) chunk. So there is no way that allowing the Two Rivers, which hasn't seen a guardsman or tax collector in generations, to go its own way is setting any precedent that hasn't already been set.

 

The solution that she and Perrin come up with addresses this fact. It's a bit of legal fiction that leaves the Two Rivers as an independent state within Andor, yet manages to do that without her having to give away her authority. I thought it was an elegant solution and well done all the way around. It's a solution that was only possible because everybody involved was willing to listen and compromise. Perrin didn't get all affronted at being told he was part of Andor, Elayne actually listened, and took, Morgase's advice.

 

I pretty much agree with your other points.

 

 

 

[randsc]

 

2. She seems a little shakey on the responsibility of rulers to the ruled. And this is a real change, one I find distasteful. In the earlier books, Elayne was keenly aware of this responsibility, and even lectured other characters about it. But now she is behaving as a feudal monarach who has forgotten the basic social contract of feudalism. The entire system is built on mutual obligations. If she has failed in her obligations, her people owe her nothing. You want to rule the Two Rivers, Elayne? Well than when trollocs and Whitecloaks appear, the Queen's Guard had better be right behind. Having given nothing to the Two Rivers, she has no right to expect anything from the Two Rivers. And don't give me any crap about needing to maintain the territorial integrity of Andor. She's giving away a hunk of the country to the Sea Folk to further her own ends. And a very visible (if small) chunk. So there is no way that allowing the Two Rivers, which hasn't seen a guardsman or tax collector in generations, to go its own way is setting any precedent that hasn't already been set.

 

The solution that she and Perrin come up with addresses this fact. It's a bit of legal fiction that leaves the Two Rivers as an independent state within Andor, yet manages to do that without her having to give away her authority. I thought it was an elegant solution and well done all the way around. It's a solution that was only possible because everybody involved was willing to listen and compromise. Perrin didn't get all affronted at being told he was part of Andor, Elayne actually listened, and took, Morgase's advice.

 

I pretty much agree with your other points.

 

That is a decent practical solution. But the problem is a moral one.

 

Morally, Elayne has no right to expect the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

Practically, Perrin's army is considerably larger than hers.

 

The solution works because Perrin doesn't really want to be a king.

[Mr Ares]

1. You can count me among those who don't think she has done enough to protect Andor from an invasion she knows is coming. Don't talk to me about increasing border defenses. If Barack Obama had notice of a planned invasion of the United States, adding a few more Border Patrol agents would not excuse him transporting virtually the entirety of the US military to Botswana for a meeting.

Given she can Travel she can respond by moving forces from the FoM to Andor quicker than Obama could get US forces from Botswana back to the US. Her country has not been left defenceless, and when the invasion comes she can respond to it quickly, so how has she failed in her duty in this respect?

 

2. She seems a little shakey on the responsibility of rulers to the ruled. And this is a real change, one I find distasteful. In the earlier books, Elayne was keenly aware of this responsibility, and even lectured other characters about it. But now she is behaving as a feudal monarach who has forgotten the basic social contract of feudalism. The entire system is built on mutual obligations. If she has failed in her obligations, her people owe her nothing. You want to rule the Two Rivers, Elayne? Well than when trollocs and Whitecloaks appear, the Queen's Guard had better be right behind. Having given nothing to the Two Rivers, she has no right to expect anything from the Two Rivers. And don't give me any crap about needing to maintain the territorial integrity of Andor. She's giving away a hunk of the country to the Sea Folk to further her own ends. And a very visible (if small) chunk. So there is no way that allowing the Two Rivers, which hasn't seen a guardsman or tax collector in generations, to go its own way is setting any precedent that hasn't already been set.

Hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. The TR hasn't been paying taxes, so why should they be entitled to the guards that those taxes pay for? Furthermore, her actions were politically necessary - if she allowed a rebel lord to take a chunk of her country it could cause political instability further down the line. More rebellions, civil war. Lots of people dying. By acting in the way she does, she prevents that.

 

3. She really should have told other people, including Mat, about losing the Foxhead copies. That is a major screw-up, and she needs to make sure all light-siders and most especially those who might be able to do something about it (e.g., Mat) know about it.

There are some people who might benefit from the knowledge, but I don't really see how Mat is one of them. Would you care to explain?

 

That is a decent practical solution. But the problem is a moral one.

 

Morally, Elayne has no right to expect the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

Morally, coming to a compromise is better than descending into infighting in the face of Armageddon how? There were failings on both sides, but fortunately both sides were reasonable enough to build bridges and create a working solution. i don't have aproblem with the morality of Elayne's actions here.

 

Practically, Perrin's army is considerably larger than hers.

I take it you have the numbers to back that up? I've seen estimates as high as 200,000 Andorans (at full strength, not all of them fully trained), can Perrin muster that many TR men, Ghealdanin and refugees? Probably not.

[randsc]

Given she can Travel she can respond by moving forces from the FoM to Andor quicker than Obama could get US forces from Botswana back to the US. Her country has not been left defenceless, and when the invasion comes she can respond to it quickly, so how has she failed in her duty in this respect?

 

It has been made clear that moving large numbers through gateways takes a considerable time.

 

Hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. The TR hasn't been paying taxes, so why should they be entitled to the guards that those taxes pay for?

 

Right. Mutual obligations. I said that. And the Two Rivers ain't crying out for her help, are they?

 

Furthermore, her actions were politically necessary - if she allowed a rebel lord to take a chunk of her country it could cause political instability further down the line. More rebellions, civil war. Lots of people dying. By acting in the way she does, she prevents that.

 

Instead, she establishes the precedent that if she personally wants something, she will abrogate sovereignty over a chuck of Andor to a foreign power.

 

There are some people who might benefit from the knowledge, but I don't really see how Mat is one of them. Would you care to explain?

 

Because he may very well be in a position to retrieve it, and he commands an army that may now have to face an enemy shielded from channeling. Why NOT tell him?

 

Morally, coming to a compromise is better than descending into infighting in the face of Armageddon how? There were failings on both sides, but fortunately both sides were reasonable enough to build bridges and create a working solution. i don't have aproblem with the morality of Elayne's actions here.

 

How about not infighting? She has no valid claim to the Two Rivers. If Andor actually tried to claim all of the land once ruled by its' ruling house, what would that equal? She was given a gift.

 

I take it you have the numbers to back that up? I've seen estimates as high as 200,000 Andorans (at full strength, not all of them fully trained), can Perrin muster that many TR men, Ghealdanin and refugees? Probably not.

I don't care about the fully-mustered strength of the nation of Andor. What matters is what the two sides have, right then and there. She has, for all we can tell from the book, about 50,000. 20K that were hers and 30K that supported the other houses. The Band isn't going to fight Perrin. And ne has 70,000.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

There are some people who might benefit from the knowledge, but I don't really see how Mat is one of them. Would you care to explain?

 

*blather* and he commands an army that may now have to face an enemy shielded from channeling. Why NOT tell him?

 

Cos like NO FREAKING ONE in his army can channel? So what difference would it make?

[randsc]

Right, there's no chance that Mat will end up commanding an army that includes channelers. None at all.

 

Seriously, why not tell him?

 

The reason is because Elayne realizes she screwed up (for which realization I give her credit; Egwene could never have had such an epiphany) but is embarassed to admit it. Even when admiting it could be really important.

 

I mean, you KNOW that these medallions are going to feature in the story again, right?

 

She also wants to get the medallion back to study some more, and probably figures Mat will not be inclined to share it with someone who almost lost it.

 

Elayne isn't nearly as bad as Egwene, but she's a flaw character. They all are, but her flaws are more impactful than most. I think the best argument in her favor is that she is a kid, and a pretty well-intentioned one, and that she has shown a capacity for reflection, self-criticism and growth than certain other characters have not. So she has promise. That doesn't mean we are required to like where she is at, right now.

[randsc]

Let me cover the good points of Elayne. I acknowledge that there are some. If I did a smilar post for Egwene, it wouldn't meet the minimum post character-count of the forum software.

 

1. Elayne shows a genuine concern for other people, including commoners. Her plan for offering healing to any who ask is exactly the sort of thing that channelers should do, and the fact that it has occured to no one before is the strongest indictment of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

2. I have never doubted that Elayne would act in what she saw as Andor's interests, even if those interests conflicted with those of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

3. Elayne is generally sympathetic to the notion that people should control their own destinies, and not have them planned out by others.

 

4. Elayne at least makes an effort to get Egwene to question her own positions. Not a strong effort, but honestly any such effort is destined to fail anyway.

 

5. She's apparently hot. (Mandatory non-PC statement to tweak the hyper-sensitive)

 

6. She is less sexist than some characters, and her sexism is on the wane, not the increase. She is actually a useful measuring rod for how far Nynaeve's character has come. When Nynaeve and Elayne were traveling together, Elayne was the less-sexist one. Now, Nynaeve has passed her. But still, Elayne shows development in this area.

[anotherfingolfin]

Right, there's no chance that Mat will end up commanding an army that includes channelers. None at all.

 

Seriously, why not tell him?

 

The reason is because Elayne realizes she screwed up (for which realization I give her credit; Egwene could never have had such an epiphany) but is embarassed to admit it. Even when admiting it could be really important.

 

I mean, you KNOW that these medallions are going to feature in the story again, right?

 

She also wants to get the medallion back to study some more, and probably figures Mat will not be inclined to share it with someone who almost lost it.

 

Elayne isn't nearly as bad as Egwene, but she's a flaw character. They all are, but her flaws are more impactful than most. I think the best argument in her favor is that she is a kid, and a pretty well-intentioned one, and that she has shown a capacity for reflection, self-criticism and growth than certain other characters have not. So she has promise. That doesn't mean we are required to like where she is at, right now.

 

Seriously? Why NOT tell him. And all her other allies, while she's at it? There is no logical reason why she shouldn't. And defending her decision is, as far as i can tell, pretty inexplicable. She is furthering the WoT not-sharing-information routine! And her reasons are childish/selfish. Not mature or noble.

While i agree with most of what you say, i think the 'she's young' excuse is generally pitiful. I have heard this excuse with regards to Egwene too. Most of our most important PoV characters are really young (which is pretty fantastic, imho). Seems like the age for cabability in the WoT universe has been set much lower than what we are used to. Hence, my position is that if you are too young to make the kind of choices/exhibit the kind of behaviour that is becoming of your position, then you are thus incapable, and NOT deserving of your position.

[David Selig]

While i agree with most of what you say, i think the 'she's young' excuse is generally pitiful. I have heard this excuse with regards to Egwene too. Most of our most important PoV characters are really young (which is pretty fantastic, imho). Seems like the age for cabability in the WoT universe has been set much lower than what we are used to. Hence, my position is that if you are too young to make the kind of choices/exhibit the kind of behaviour that is becoming of your position, then you are thus incapable, and NOT deserving of your position.

If withholding information from your friends and allies makes a character incapable for their position, all important position in Randland will remain empty forever, since everyone loves keeping secrets, often for no reason. :)

 

Young, old, in between, they all do it.

 

The lack of communication is one of the main themes of the series after all.

[AutomatedTeller]

All we know is that at no point do we hear Elayne telling Mat that she lost one of the copies. We don't know that she didn't tell him, we don't know that she did.

 

It's not reasonable to condemn Elayne for something that we don't know anything about.

 

As for the Two Rivers - I think it's a fine solution and I thought the process was fine. Not comfortable for everyone, I'm sure... but when the fate of a nation is at stake, I'm not sure how comfortable people should be.

 

I also think there is a large difference between making mistakes and being incapable. All of them make mistakes. If the bar is to make only perfect decisions, then the bar is set way too high for anyone to hurdle.

[randsc]

All we know is that at no point do we hear Elayne telling Mat that she lost one of the copies. We don't know that she didn't tell him, we don't know that she did.

 

It's not reasonable to condemn Elayne for something that we don't know anything about.

 

 

If that's the standard, we can't criticize any character, since any of them may have done things off-screen that make up for any failings on-screen.

 

She didn't tell him.

[Sharaman]

Her PoV makes it clear that she decided not to tell him.

[anotherfingolfin]

While i agree with most of what you say, i think the 'she's young' excuse is generally pitiful. I have heard this excuse with regards to Egwene too. Most of our most important PoV characters are really young (which is pretty fantastic, imho). Seems like the age for cabability in the WoT universe has been set much lower than what we are used to. Hence, my position is that if you are too young to make the kind of choices/exhibit the kind of behaviour that is becoming of your position, then you are thus incapable, and NOT deserving of your position.

If withholding information from your friends and allies makes a character incapable for their position, all important position in Randland will remain empty forever, since everyone loves keeping secrets, often for no reason. :)

 

Young, old, in between, they all do it.

 

The lack of communication is one of the main themes of the series after all.

 

in the part you quoted, i was only making the point that the main characters' ages are not a valid excuse for their failings.

[Jack Shaftoe]

It's not as if Mat was fully honest with Elayne either. He didn't tell her about marrying the Empress of Seanchan. I suspect these omission are the unfortunate effect of "the plot won't work if they share too much" syndrome.

[Sharaman]

Since he's being called the Raven Prince by all and sundry including palace guards in Brigitte's presence, it's a moot point.

[Duskfire]

It's not as if Mat was fully honest with Elayne either. He didn't tell her about marrying the Empress of Seanchan. I suspect these omission are the unfortunate effect of "the plot won't work if they share too much" syndrome.

 

Well in Mats defense, I probably wouldnt tell Elayne that either. Who knows how she would react. She may not hate them as much as Egwene, but she isnt exactly in their camp either.

[bluecole]

This isn't really a question in elayne's arc, but since it touches on Brigitte, I guess it can go here. Mods, if you want to break it our, feel free.

 

I think we have a clue on Gadiel Cain. on Pg. 172, Grady is talking to Perrin, asking to go home. He mentions he wants to see wife and kid, and says WTTE, "My kid is big for his age and ugly as a stump" The kids name in Gadren, which is pretty close.

 

I'll let the detectives do a full search to see if Grady has a kid in the earlier books, and when he was born. I think Brigitte had said she was missing him the TAR,and she thought he was spun out.

 

wouldn't it be badass for a toddler hero of the horn to help clean out the BT? ::Swinging sword and hitching up the diaper::

 

Thanks,

 

B.

[waffle]

That kid is ~4 years old. So to quote pedobear: "Too old :("