Discuss The Prophecies

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yup. Mat has characteristics of both Odin and Loki. Which is really weird.

 

Not really. Loki and Odin were sort of pals in Norse myth, and had a number of common characteristics, and RJ was fond of syncretism in WoT. You want weird? Loki gave birth to Odin's horse. His eight-legged horse. That's weird.

 

I think he sired it.

 

No, really: he turned into a mare, hooked up with a stallion, and gave birth to Sleipnir.

 

Yes. Couldn't remember which half of the parentage he actually was. Anyway, he ends up bound to a rock by the entrails of one of his sons, with acid/poison dripping on him, ( due to the death of Balder ) and eventually he and Heimdallr kill each other during Ragnarok.

 

Not really a pleasant fella.

[Azeryn]

I took this slightly different from most. I assumed that the 'broken wolf' whom had 'known death' as being Hopper. Him falling to the XXXXX TOWERS' would be Slayer (Isam/Luc) killing him in the wolf dream. Hopper was already dead and his spirit only existed in the Wolf Dream, as you already stated. As for the Towers of Midnight, keep in mind that Isam (One Half of the being known as Slayer...specifically the half he was in the Wolf Dream) is/was Malkieri, thus the reference is about Slayer killing Hopper.

 

Just My Opinion.

[Kahlika]

I took this slightly different from most. I assumed that the 'broken wolf' whom had 'known death' as being Hopper. Him falling to the XXXXX TOWERS' would be Slayer (Isam/Luc) killing him in the wolf dream. Hopper was already dead and his spirit only existed in the Wolf Dream, as you already stated. As for the Towers of Midnight, keep in mind that Isam (One Half of the being known as Slayer...specifically the half he was in the Wolf Dream) is/was Malkieri, thus the reference is about Slayer killing Hopper.

 

Just My Opinion.

 

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

How did Hopper's death do that exactly?

 

I'm still not 100% sold on Ituralde, although I am leaning that way, maybe Bashere could be squeezed in. But the above criteria rules out Hopper, Noam, Jain, Slayer etc, and as Bob outlined above it's pretty unlikely it's Perrin given the context. There's not really any other explicitly Wolf associated characters I can think of.

 

But I will add that Sanderson probably wrote the prophecy. And Sanderson clearly likes writing Ituralde (not that I'm complaining, I found those to be some of the best written bits in the book, Sanderson does a lot better with battle scenes and with the characters he's been able to flesh out more himself). Ituralde fills the criteria, the only real argument against it is that he isn't important enough to get a mention in a prophecy, but is he that unimportant anymore? After this book he's pretty much on Bashere's level in terms of secondary characters imo.

 

And it just occured to me that if the prophecy wasn't Sanderson's work, or was somehow part of RJ's notes/outlines even if it wasn't written in its entirety, then perhaps that would explain the much larger role suddenly given to Ituralde. He had to be written as a more important character to be able to fit in with it (there's certainly plenty of examples through the book of characters who BS has had to develop to keep in line with the material he's been given to work with plot wise). A lot of people have wondered why he suddenly got so much space, maybe that's why/part of it.

[WolfDragonFox]

The Broken Wolf seems a bit obvious for me. It seems everyone keeps forgetting that the Broken Crown is the Saldean crown. Tenobia will die and he will assume the crown of Saldea. Death could conceivably be one of 3 things. Moridin who's name means death, Padan Fain which Perrin has known or the simple answer that all his loved ones were killed including Hopper. Since its is in caps i take it to be a person so that leaves Moridin and Fain (who BTW is searching for a new name)

 

Now The Midnight Towers is a funny little play on the words because it lends itself to two meanings. First the possiblity that he ends up in Seanchan at Imfaral and there he dies. (seems unlikely) so it takes me to Egwene's dreaming of the towers and how they number 13 then crumble to the exact number of forsaken left alive. Therefore it seems he will be killed by some of the forsaken (i'm guessing Graendal and Moridin even taking into account that she has failed when Moridiin told her she'd be the one to kill him. There's always 3rd time's a charm.

 

Regarding his death, we already know from Min that Perrin must be there to save Rand but take into account that Perrin is essentially a wolf in human form of the waking world so presumably when he dies he will live on in the Wolf Dream. He could therefore die in the waking world by saving Rand and falling to the forsaken, or he could die by the forsaken and then save Rand in T.A.R since we see from Perrin's POV of what happened to Rand on Dragonmount that Rand is walking both worlds simultaneously. This seems perfect for Perrin to swoop in and save Rand a possible blindside assassination in T.A.R. from his old nemesis Slayer. Perrin finally destroys Slayer in the dream once and for all. It sucks but it seems to me that at least one of the 3 Taveren should die to keep things interesting. Yes we know Rand will die in some way but who knows how that will play out.

 

Still covering this Prophesy i'd like to speak about the seeming certainty that The One eyed fool traveling the halls of mourning has to be Mat in the Tower of Ghenji. Timeline wise it should make sense because i'd venture to say that since time didn't seem to be something easy to keep track of...Mat and Thom and Moiraine will have come out a day after Mat and Thom and Noal went in making it the same day Rand is going to break the seals.

 

I have more on this but i'll save it for a bit later after reading more comments and responses!

[Kahlika]

The Broken Wolf seems a bit obvious for me. It seems everyone keeps forgetting that the Broken Crown is the Saldean crown. Tenobia will die and he will assume the crown of Saldea.

 

Ok, this confused me a bit... you're saying the Broken Wolf is Perrin right?

 

Just to clarify it's Faile that would take the Broken Crown, not Perrin, and Bashere would have to die first as well. She's second in line, Perrin isn't in line at all, except as Faile's husband, he wouldn't be the actual monarch/holder of the actual crown.

 

That argument would make more sense if you were arguing the Wolf is Bashere (as people have).

 

But leaving that aside Perrin is referred to in the prophecy as Blacksmith. Just from the context it doesn't seem to refer to him since it refers to the Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf as seperate figures.

 

That said if you can accept that the Wolf and Blacksmith refers to the same person then yes, Perrin could fit the criteria.

 

Still covering this Prophesy i'd like to speak about the seeming certainty that The One eyed fool traveling the halls of mourning has to be Mat in the Tower of Ghenji.

 

Why is it certain that the Halls of Mourning is the ToG? It refers to Mat absolutely, but the mourning part makes me think it wasn't then, since Mat didn't mourn/wasn't in mourning while he was there.

 

Personally I don't think 'halls of mourning' refers to an actual place. It isn't capitalised in the prophecy, and a place would be. I think it's simply a metaphor for going through the mourning/grieving process, i.e. to travel/move through grief. I think it just means that Mat mourns for someone.

[WhiskyJack]

Broken Wolf is NOT Perrin. He is the fallen Blacksmith. Broken Wolf cannot be Ituralde either because he is not that important really and he has not known death. Midnight Towers here alludes to what? I doubt it's talking about forsaken. Can this prophecy be somehow Seanchan related? I really cannot think of a character that important.

[FarShainMael]

Possibly Mat mourns Tylin and Nalesean:

 

'Carai an manshimaya Tylin. Carai an manshimaya Nalesean. Carai an manshimaya ayend'an!'

 

...bye bye gholam!

 

I like 'broken wolf' = Bashere and 'known death' = Moridin. 'There's something.. dark.. about Lord Bashere' according to Min.

[Sharaman]

Possibly Mat mourns Tylin and Nalesean:

 

'Carai an manshimaya Tylin. Carai an manshimaya Nalesean. Carai an manshimaya ayend'an!'

 

...bye bye gholam!

 

I like 'broken wolf' = Bashere and 'known death' = Moridin. 'There's something.. dark.. about Lord Bashere' according to Min.

Mat could also be mourning Jain as he sprints to safety in the Halls of ToG.

One of the Finns says "We are the warriors of final regret" -- does that equal mourning?

[Evoke]

Regarding the "Three become one" prophecy: I haven't seen a single theory speculating as to whether this refers to our three ta'veren. When it was first mentioned this is what I thought of - not a linking of Rand and two women in order to wield Callandor, which is the train of thought entertained by Min. People are still genuinely surprised to discover that Matrim and Perrin have more important roles than given credit for. The only ones who understand that they have deal breaking importance during the last battle seem to be Moridin and Moiraine (and Moiraine let herself be blinded by Rand's needs for so long that she neglected their importance - which she chastises herself for later.)

[GusE]

Lol, if the three becoming one means the ta'veren folk, then they are gonna have some real women trouble real soon.

[GB]

can the hall of mourning be the halls of the palace in caemlyn? someone close to mat might die, setalle ? olver? talmanes?

[waffle]

Regarding the "Three become one" prophecy: I haven't seen a single theory speculating as to whether this refers to our three ta'veren. When it was first mentioned this is what I thought of - not a linking of Rand and two women in order to wield Callandor, which is the train of thought entertained by Min. People are still genuinely surprised to discover that Matrim and Perrin have more important roles than given credit for. The only ones who understand that they have deal breaking importance during the last battle seem to be Moridin and Moiraine (and Moiraine let herself be blinded by Rand's needs for so long that she neglected their importance - which she chastises herself for later.)

 

I thought that too. But isn´t there a phrase about a blade of light linked closely to that prophecy? And that is generally interpreted as Callandor. I might be wrong, i´m not well versed in the Prophecies.

 

I still think that the three taveren coming together, flexing their taveren muscles, and bending the bore closed would be cool.

[Evoke]

Regarding the "Three become one" prophecy: I haven't seen a single theory speculating as to whether this refers to our three ta'veren. When it was first mentioned this is what I thought of - not a linking of Rand and two women in order to wield Callandor, which is the train of thought entertained by Min. People are still genuinely surprised to discover that Matrim and Perrin have more important roles than given credit for. The only ones who understand that they have deal breaking importance during the last battle seem to be Moridin and Moiraine (and Moiraine let herself be blinded by Rand's needs for so long that she neglected their importance - which she chastises herself for later.)

 

I thought that too. But isn´t there a phrase about a blade of light linked closely to that prophecy? And that is generally interpreted as Callandor. I might be wrong, i´m not well versed in the Prophecies.

 

I still think that the three taveren coming together, flexing their taveren muscles, and bending the bore closed would be cool.

 

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

 

Granted, the blade of light is most likely Callandor, however the three doesn't necessarily have to be the three linked channelers required to wield it safely. Many prophesies have multiple meanings thrown together in a way that makes one assume one interpretation where greater understanding of the players at hand gives a second deeper revelation. The simple fact that most don't truly understands the three ta'veren's link causes them to dismiss or simply not even consider that option.

[GusE]

Ive seen the three to be the ta'veren, the channelers with callandor, Rand/LTT/Moridin, Rand/Moridin/Fain, Rand/Fain/DO, Saidin/Saidar/TP. It just goes to show how even though we get tons and tons of hints/prophecies/fortellings Jordan (and Sanderson) is a master at Aes Sedai word bending and always has another suprise around the corner. Love it.

[Evoke]

Ive seen the three to be the ta'veren, the channelers with callandor, Rand/LTT/Moridin, Rand/Moridin/Fain, Rand/Fain/DO, Saidin/Saidar/TP. It just goes to show how even though we get tons and tons of hints/prophecies/fortellings Jordan (and Sanderson) is a master at Aes Sedai word bending and always has another suprise around the corner. Love it.

 

I think we can rule out Fain being a part of the prophesies. He's been described as a wild card, a creature that exists outside the Pattern, unbending to its will as it tries to form Webs of Destiny. It's unlikely that he would be mentioned in prophesy if he's not a part of the Patterns plan.

 

Rand/LTT/Moridin I don't see working either. Rand and LTT are the same person, and so there would actually only be two there.

 

Saidin/Saidar/True Power could be an important aspect of sealing the Dark One away again, true. Using the True Power as a barrier between Him and the flows of Saidin and Saidar as they're used to reseal the Bore without risking the Taint once again. However they're not truly "as one" in this scenario.

[FarShainMael]

Regarding the "Three become one" prophecy: I haven't seen a single theory speculating as to whether this refers to our three ta'veren. When it was first mentioned this is what I thought of - not a linking of Rand and two women in order to wield Callandor, which is the train of thought entertained by Min. People are still genuinely surprised to discover that Matrim and Perrin have more important roles than given credit for. The only ones who understand that they have deal breaking importance during the last battle seem to be Moridin and Moiraine (and Moiraine let herself be blinded by Rand's needs for so long that she neglected their importance - which she chastises herself for later.)

The 'three ta'veren joining together' interpretation has come up a few times in the past but you'd have to dig deep to find it. I think myself that's what it is. Very early on in the books (TDR 5) there is a Fade/Trolloc attack on the party heading for Tar Valon across the Mountains of Mist. One of the Fades attacks Perrin, saying: 'Cut one leg of the tripod, and it falls'.

[capuga]

Regarding the "Three become one" prophecy: I haven't seen a single theory speculating as to whether this refers to our three ta'veren. When it was first mentioned this is what I thought of - not a linking of Rand and two women in order to wield Callandor, which is the train of thought entertained by Min. People are still genuinely surprised to discover that Matrim and Perrin have more important roles than given credit for. The only ones who understand that they have deal breaking importance during the last battle seem to be Moridin and Moiraine (and Moiraine let herself be blinded by Rand's needs for so long that she neglected their importance - which she chastises herself for later.)

 

There is a thread for this prophesy in the General sections if you look a little ways back that you might be interested in.

[didymos]

Saidin/Saidar/True Power could be an important aspect of sealing the Dark One away again, true. Using the True Power as a barrier between Him and the flows of Saidin and Saidar as they're used to reseal the Bore without risking the Taint once again.

 

The Dark One is the True Power. It's HIM, as LTT put it. It makes no sense to use the True Power as a barrier between the Dark One and the One Power , because any barrier you made would be made of Dark One. That doesn't solve the problem at all.

[Evoke]

Saidin/Saidar/True Power could be an important aspect of sealing the Dark One away again, true. Using the True Power as a barrier between Him and the flows of Saidin and Saidar as they're used to reseal the Bore without risking the Taint once again.

 

The Dark One is the True Power. It's HIM, as LTT put it. It makes no sense to use the True Power as a barrier between the Dark One and the One Power , because any barrier you made would be made of Dark One. That doesn't solve the problem at all.

 

 

Eeeh, I think that's a bit of a stretch. The Forsaken all describe it as being a power granted by the Dark One rather than tapping into him directly. Otherwise whenever there has been a Channeler with permission to wield the True Power you would have someone wielding Him as a tool, something I doubt He would be much inclined to let transpire. Nobody wields Him as a tool, but you may be honored to wield some of His powers.

 

Also, much like Saidin and Saidar stem from the One Power - that which drives the Wheel of Time and creation itself - The True Power stems from the Dark One, which when used rends reality. Creation and Destruction. It's all very Yin/Yangy.

 

The reason for the theory of using the True Power (and I'm sure this has been mentioned previously) is because any contact between Saidin or Saidar and the Dark One results in the tainting of that Power. The True Power is already tainted by Him, and as we've seen, the effects of contact between the One Power and the True Power are similar to that of the once Tainted Saidin and Saidar in that there is no cross contamination. Only direct contact with the Dark One will taint a Source.

 

I'm sure there are several threads with discussions regarding these theories on other parts of the forum, however I think it's best to stick to this part so as not to risk spoiling anything for those who haven't caught up.

[WhiskyJack]

^^^Actually RJ and Sanderson have both confirmed that TP is essence of DO. It is DO. And that's why it is so good at destruction. So NO, if DO doesn't want you to have it, you cannot have it.

 

By the way, any contact of DO (?) and Saidar/Saidin won't automatically result in taint. Only if DO wills it. And TP is NOT tainted.

[WolfDragonFox]

Okay so as a poster here for a bit over a year and a lurker for longer than that...I do realize my DM Forum mistake in writing of "certainties" because no one can make a definitive decision about things here...lol sorry guys it was just my opinion that halls of mourning are Mat in ToG.

 

Back to business...I do want to make a case against the thoughts that Bashere may be the Broken Wolf because he isn't ever referred to as a wolf, like a wolf or anything of the sort. That belongs to Perrin and Ituralde as far as I remember. Doesn't mean its those two but I don't believe its Bashere. The case for Ituralde could be that seeing one of the Great Captains die would shake up some men and bring some fear but that would happen on a much grander scale if Perrin were to die.

 

I go against my earlier thinking that its Perrin only because of the distinct description: "...the one whom Death has known." So this get me thinking that its gotta be someone else that knows either Moridin or Shaidar Haran, or has seen or confronted one of those two. Since its in caps i still believe Death to be a reference to a character not the state of being dead.

 

Small cases could be made for Hopper, Slayer, or maybe even Noam and Elyas but i don't know where to begin and I don't think they hold the answers to who the Broken Wolf is. None of them dying would shake up men's will.

 

Here's a bit of a theory i've been holding onto but i'd like to share now. We mostly all agree Perrin is the Fallen Blacksmith, I find that we should still look at some of the other words of the prophesy.

 

"...the last days of the Fallen Blacksmiths' pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

So here's my theory in parts:

 

1. Perrin's pride has already ended and he's accepted leadership and he's created the super hammer so that fulfills the other prophecey of "When the Wolf King carries the Hammer, thus are the last days known"

 

2. I find my way fighting around Death...Moridin is plotting against Perrin with Graendal or was before she got SH violated but still is i'm sure and will have some new motivation for seeing him pay. Mordeth/Fain is another possibility and he's known and hunted all the tavaren so thats possible. I don't think he will die though from his confrontation with any of the ones that could be Death. It will just be his falling point when he confronts them...which is why Death could be Slayer as well.

 

3. I am an advocate that the Midnight Towers referenced here are the same as it seems in Egwenes dreaming. They represent the remaining forsaken. And it doesn't say they will kill him just that he will be consumed by them so part of my theory is that they will turn Perrin to the Shadow by force.

 

4. "his destruction" therefore would be him ripping through his former allies and causing many to lose heart and fear that if Perrin could be turned anyone can.

 

5. The final part of my theory concludes with a combination of Galad (his new best buddy) and the wolves teaming up to somehow bring him back to the light. I'm thinking Galad defeats him in the waking world and then he ends up in the Wolf Dream where the wolves will set him straight and have him kill Slayer than somehow he'll have only been unconcious and will be healed and his good ole Perrin self again which will reinvigorate the forces of light.

 

Well thats my theory and though it seems to be a tad outlandish...i think its not too farfetched with what we've seen of how the good guys never die in this book and it'd be a great way to finally see a forced turning!

[WhiskyJack]

^^Just one flaw...Perrin is already mentioned as Fallen Blacksmith. He will not be mentioned twice and by another name, right or wrong.

[shadowkiller_001]

I don't understand why so many people think that Perrin can't me named twice in the same prophecy by different names.

The dark one is reffered to as: The Greatest One, Great Lord, Him who Will Destroy, and the Lord of the Evening

Rand is reffered to as both First Among Vermin and the Broken Champion.

 

So i don't see why the idea of perrin being the Broken Wolf and the Fallen Blacksmith is so abhorrent to most people.

 

Personally, I don't think the Broken Wolf is Perrin, but there is certainly no reason it can't be him based on the prose.

[Evoke]

^^^Actually RJ and Sanderson have both confirmed that TP is essence of DO. It is DO. And that's why it is so good at destruction. So NO, if DO doesn't want you to have it, you cannot have it.

 

By the way, any contact of DO (?) and Saidar/Saidin won't automatically result in taint. Only if DO wills it. And TP is NOT tainted.

 

Semantics, and to an extent a matter of how you look at it. Also - unless you've heard something I haven't - it's not certain that Rand's sudden ability to tap into the True Power was a boon granted by the Dark One, or if it is something caused by his accidental link with Moridin. I would be interested however in seeing the transcript of Jordan's Q&A on the subject. Have they stated that it is essence of Him? That He is the source of the True Power or that He is the True Power? One aspect I enjoy so much about the Wheel of Time is that phrasing is Key, so I'm very curious as to what they actually said.

 

Where does this information come from? Jordan has confirmed that if both Powers had been used in trying to seal the Bore the result would have been that both would be tainted. Why wouldn't the Dark One want whatever comes in contact with him to be tainted? That seems counterproductive to his agenda.

 

True, the True Power isn't tainted. At least, not in the same way Saidin was. It will still drive you mad after prolonged use. Saa and Flaming Caverns for eyes are another side effect. So in essence, it's still a tainted source of power - it does after all, stem from the Dark One.

[WhiskyJack]

I don't understand why so many people think that Perrin can't me named twice in the same prophecy by different names.

The dark one is reffered to as: The Greatest One, Great Lord, Him who Will Destroy, and the Lord of the Evening

Rand is reffered to as both First Among Vermin and the Broken Champion.

 

So i don't see why the idea of perrin being the Broken Wolf and the Fallen Blacksmith is so abhorrent to most people.

 

Personally, I don't think the Broken Wolf is Perrin, but there is certainly no reason it can't be him based on the prose.

 

 

Er...Because of the way prophecy is written? Not only putting Perrin's name twice would make him more important than Rand, it will be an useless effort since he is mentioned just before that line. What would be the point of naming him twice back to back? And yes, even if Perrin was not the fallen blacksmith, he still won't be the broken wolf.

 

Broken champion is mentioned in different context..