Discuss The Prophecies

[decrepid dragon]

What if one of Moiraines wishes was what she needed to know to help win the last battle? And that wish granted her a perfect recollection of all the dark prophesies? Seems that she was re-introduced in close enough time to be connected with them but far enough away to be not immediatly obvious. Just an idea I thought up (sorry if someone else put this down already, I haven't read all posts). Seems like Rand is still floundering a bit with what to do, surely the DP contains a lot of useful information (other then giving your flesh and lips to the lord of the evening). Unless Meirin really does turn out to want help and somehow lets him know of them, which I doubt since it seems all forsaken were in ignorance of them until DO told Moridin.

 

I really hope it gets explained WHY Ishmael was most trusted of forskaken, rewarded for failing and dying, never truly sealed. Was it because he was closest to the Bore when he opened it? Or because he was super philosophical about joining because it only needs to win once while pattern needs to win every time, so he made an informed and logical decision about how he was going to get power, believing the DO will win no matter what rather than just seeing a quick path to personal glory when things looked bad for the light, in a way making him the most loyal forsaken?

 

EDIT: to clarify wording

[Sventity]

Here are my thoughts on some of the prophecies. I posted these on Theoryland yesterday but I'd love to know what you guys think.

 

First, to set the scene -

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

For the second half of the prophecy I assume Rand and Moridin need to join in some fashion, more so than they are at the moment. The technicalities of how and when are a whole separate discussion and I won't go there now.

 

For the first half - "Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him with very little time for the south - though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionaly showed their faces there" -TGS Prologue

This implies the south is all of Randland, north could be the Blight upwards, east is Seanchan, west would be Shara.

 

SO

The north and the east must be as one (the Blight and north and Shara)

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

nothing more needs to be said there

 

The west and south must be as one (Randland and Seanchan)

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,

There are no capitals in the 'halls' or 'mourning' which suggests to me that this is not at an actual place. Mat is mourning, someone or maybe lots of people have died.

and the First Among Vermin

Vermin implies a lack of respect so I don't think this can be Rand, the DO may hate him but there is respect there. The definition of vermin is an unpleasant, obnoxious, or dangerous person, it also implies expendible. For lack of a better candidate I'll say Fain.

lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

He may well have his own reasons for doing something to 'free' the DO. Maybe, unwittingly, he'll be involved with the braking of the seals - that would justify his presence here.

the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

Perrin, his pride could be the wolves

Yea, and the Broken Wolf,

there are quite a few candidates but I'm not convinced by any of them yet

the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

Moridin is Death, Midnight Towers are in Seanchan of course.

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

the fear and sorrow could just as easily refer to the defeated side as the winners, depending on the circumstances.

At the moment I like the idea of the Broken Wolf being the 'murderer' on the Crystal Throne with Tuon causing fear and sorrow whilst re-taking the Throne, but of course that is pure speculation.

 

The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come.

If Rand is now the Lord of the Morning then surely the Lord of the Evening is Moridin

And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him,

and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him,

and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise.

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,

Rand is not as one with Moridin, he is not whole, he is the Broken Champion

and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful.

Who's blood? This line works equally well for either but we assume it's Rand because we have this from TGH ch.26

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

Dragon's blood hits the rocks and everything goes dark, but, at some point before the blood spilling Rand had stopped being 'Broken'

Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

Why would they beg for their destruction? They'd been promised an eternity of rule and power under the DO. They beg because dawn comes again and 'the Darkness so beautiful' is not what they thought it to be.

The DO has lost again

 

Great Post! Lots of possibilities here that I hadn't considered and really make sense too... these require more thought.

[Manetheren Lord]

Something I found today while reading TDR. "He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." With the Rhuidean visions of Aviendha this puts a little more light on this. I believe that Rand will have to give the Aiel a purpose after the last battle- Aviendha being the one to get him to do this with her knew found knowledge- so that they don't end up as they were in the visions. This purpose would of course be giving the Aiel the way of the leaf, as the Aiel have always been the people that the current age needs. Sword of peace would be the act of doing so? Not sure what it literally means but something around the lines of bringing them to the way of the leaf.

 

Also,

"the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."

I believe this to be Jain Farstrider, as we know the shadow- presumably Moridin- was messing with his mind; and he did indeed fall and was consumed by the Eelfinn.

 

 

"lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,"

Rand destroying the seals on the Dark One's prison.

[Mr. Micawber]

Uh, no, the begging for destruction bit can be very easily explained by this:

 

"The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days"

 

The Big Guy is the embodiment of chaos and destruction. His victory would mean the utter obliteration of everything, now, then, and to come.

 

That is why Elan Morin sided with him, because Elan Morin Tedronai's study of philosophy led him towards nihilism.

 

And that is why DarkRand balefiring existence would have been a victory, no, the ultimate victory, for the Big Guy. The Big Guy doesn't need to be *freed* to win. If the Pattern ceases to exist, that is the exact same thing as a Shadow victory.

 

As Verin pointed out, the way the Big Guy gets his followers, the thing he actively seeks in his followers, is selfishness. There's one exception to this, and that's Elan Morin. And that, fundamentally, is why he is Nae'blis, because he's not merely the most powerful follower of the Big Guy, he's the only guy to understand on the most basic level what "remaking the world in his image" means. The Big Guy's image is the opposite of existence, human or otherwise.

 

What interests me is that the one remaining unbowed and undefeated Forsaken, Demandred, may be at the same point. Demandred may have joined for glory, for respect, for Ilyena, but right now, he's motivated, he's driven by one overarching goal: the destruction of the Dragon's soul for all time. To Demandred, that vengeance is literally all he has left, since the Dragon took everything else away from him.

 

So, Demandred is the one other guy who wouldn't mind the end of everything, so long as he first got to stand over the Dragon's body in triumph.

[decrepid dragon]

Uh, no, the begging for destruction bit can be very easily explained by this:

 

"The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days"

 

The Big Guy is the embodiment of chaos and destruction. His victory would mean the utter obliteration of everything, now, then, and to come.

 

That is why Elan Morin sided with him, because Elan Morin Tedronai's study of philosophy led him towards nihilism.

 

And that is why DarkRand balefiring existence would have been a victory, no, the ultimate victory, for the Big Guy. The Big Guy doesn't need to be *freed* to win. If the Pattern ceases to exist, that is the exact same thing as a Shadow victory.

 

As Verin pointed out, the way the Big Guy gets his followers, the thing he actively seeks in his followers, is selfishness. There's one exception to this, and that's Elan Morin. And that, fundamentally, is why he is Nae'blis, because he's not merely the most powerful follower of the Big Guy, he's the only guy to understand on the most basic level what "remaking the world in his image" means. The Big Guy's image is the opposite of existence, human or otherwise.

 

What interests me is that the one remaining unbowed and undefeated Forsaken, Demandred, may be at the same point. Demandred may have joined for glory, for respect, for Ilyena, but right now, he's motivated, he's driven by one overarching goal: the destruction of the Dragon's soul for all time. To Demandred, that vengeance is literally all he has left, since the Dragon took everything else away from him.

 

So, Demandred is the one other guy who wouldn't mind the end of everything, so long as he first got to stand over the Dragon's body in triumph.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I knew he had a philosophical reason beyond power, just couldn't remember what it was. I am surprised he wasn't made Head sooner, only a couple of other darkfriends would be that loyal, and they would be suicidal low ranking fanatics. Interesting theory with Damandred there, he would be especially satisfied now that Rand has LTTs memories, I wish I didn't have to go and search through 10 books to find all his POV's again

[Mr. Micawber]

and they would be suicidal low ranking fanatics.

 

Yup. We've seen them for several books now.

 

They're the Gray Men.

[coq]

Hiya, first time poster here and just wanted to share my thoughts on some of the prophecies

 

Firstly, I have two thoughts on the Broken Wolf.

 

Firstly, Hopper. Has known Death and has died a second 'more final?' death in the wolf dream.

Going with the Norse Mythos that is present in the series, I think it could be possible that Hopper has been turned to a Darkhound is destined to cause some major upset in the final battle as Fenrir (Hopper) did in Ragnarok.

 

A second candidate is Boundless. A broken man/wolf, although how that could play out I have no solid ideas on.

 

 

Regarding the 'Fallen Blacksmith', I wonder if there are two prophecies, one for each of the possibilities of how The Dragon will arrive at The Last Battle. Since Rand has had his epiphany and come out the other side of the tunnel as it were, the prophecies of 'light' are the favourites now but had he fallen completely to the shadow, then the prophecies of the shadow would be fulfilled.

 

Following this, if the 'dark' Rand had descended from Dragonmount, there may have been carry-on effects. Perrin would have favoured the axe over the hammer. Then he would truly qualify as a 'fallen blacksmith'.

 

I wonder which prophecies the Seanchean have?

[OneAwesomeOpossum]

I've noticed a lot of people discounting Perrin from being the "Broken Wolf" due to the fact that "death" has not technically known him yet, as stated in the Prophecy (Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known). Lan, Ituralde, and Hopper are among the other candidates for this title.

However, no one has brought up the fact that Perrin's entire familywas murdered by Fain and his corrupted Children of the Light.

If that's not "one whom Death has known", I dunno who is.

In addition to this we have the fact that Perrin has the most ties to the "wolf" imagery in the series and that both Moridin and Graendal interpreted the Prophecy to mean that Perrin would die.

[Loophole]

 

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized."

 

 

I have never much liked the theory of Fain taking the position of the DO, but does anyone else think this line gives gives it some weight? "all that he is can be seized", all that the DO one is, his power, his position, everything seized by another. :(

[thebeastwithin]

I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

 

That's not a new theory. I said that same thing earlier in this very topic. Well, I guess I should be honored that Luckers is taking my ideas ;-)

[smileyman]

I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

 

That's not a new theory. I said that same thing earlier in this very topic. Well, I guess I should be honored that Luckers is taking my ideas ;-)

 

Of course you're both wrong. The Broken Wolf is Mat.

[GusE]

About this Broken Wolf, he shall be consumed by the forsaken. Is that "his destruction", or is "his destruction" referring to deeds the Broken Wolf will do after he has been consumed? That might give some strength to the theories about it being Hopper turned Darkhound, like the Fenris who is prophesised to kill Odin at Ragnarok, but whom Odin's son Vidar (Olver?) kills instead. I still lean towards Ituralde or perhaps Bashere, but the mythology is intriguing.

[number]

search function didn't work but I did a breif search and couldn't find it in this thread:

 

Just a resolution of a very old prophecy (well, a viewing by min) from EotW

 

Regarding mat

“A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face.”

 

 

Just starting a full re-read of the series after finishing ToM and noticed this on the way through

[Rand_al_Dude]

Hi all I have a half formulated theory (actually more like a stray thought)

 

In the chapter a 'A Storm of Light', Min comes across the passage 'Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized'. I don't if this comes under the category of a prophecy but I don't know where else to post!

 

To me 'infinite void' sounds way too much like the void in the skimming place (where the ghloam is currently in freefal) and it the passage seems to suggest that Rand can somehow use this to his advantage in the fight against the DO.

 

Maybe drawing more power than is normally possible via the infinite void. Or even better (and I know this is WAY out there) possibly draw more power from the parallel/mirror worlds. Although, I admit AFAIK there is no link between the 'skimming place void' and/or 'parallel worlds'.

 

How about this idea. Callandor isn't flawed and it doesn't have a buffer for a simple reason. It allows the channeler to tap into the OP of their past lives/mirror/parallel worlds.

 

A bit weak and way out there, but what do you guys think? But I get the feeling the passage Min quoted is important somehow.

[DM_kahler]

First time contributing to the forums but been reading them for years. Thanks for making the thread. I have some questions and some thoughts for you WoT genius reading.

 

Do we feel that the shadow prophecy is a blueprint for the DO’s victory? Like nothing is set in stone, and the above has to happen to ensure a win on TG.

 

The reason I ask is because I doubt that the shadow can win now if the above notion is correct. The Broken Champion seems to be the Dark Rand, and since Light Rand came back down the mountain it seems that all is lost for the shadow. There seems to be multiple prophecies about Rand’s blood bringing light or darkness, saving or condemning. I wonder if the DO’s strike against Rand will be his undoing?

 

The “One-Eyed Fool” we know now is Mat. Will he be mourning Tuon?

 

“The First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy” we assume this is Rand opening the bore.

 

Perhaps the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin, or the Perrin who did not come to grips with the wolf. The one who chose the axe. He may also be the broken wolf and be consumed (killed/destroyed) by the Midnight Towers (the forsaken like in Egwene’s dream).

 

Also does anyone here think that Moiraine will be the other female with Rand and Nynaeve using Callandor? I am sure there is no one else he will trust more... or that he would be willing to take out there (I mean he may try to protect Aviendha, Elayne).

 

Is Padin Fain another Gollum?

 

Last, perhaps this is a blue print for a complete Shadow victory, and the prophecies of the Dragon are a blueprint for a complete Light victory. What happens when each side completes some… are we left with another taint… or some other counter stroke and another turn of the wheel?

[Fryn]

search function didn't work but I did a breif search and couldn't find it in this thread:

 

Just a resolution of a very old prophecy (well, a viewing by min) from EotW

 

Regarding mat

“A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face.”

 

 

Just starting a full re-read of the series after finishing ToM and noticed this on the way through

 

Yup, it was pretty much a given he would lose an eye at some point, and most guessed to rescue Morraine (Also fit well with "Half the light to save the world," Min stating Rand couldnt win without Morraine (aka to save the world), Egwene's (or was it perrin's) dream with mat with a bloody face and 2 other men).

 

It was great how he handled losing the eye. You have to love blind luck. Although I was half expecting it to be a little more interesting than mat just standing there and taking it =p

[Cyf]

What is with Guitara's prophecy that Luc had to go to the blight for the world to win the last battle? Has any new info come to light about this? And what implications could this have? Slayer is a bad bad thing now because he went to the blight. What could come of this? How is this significant?

 

In my opinion, unless Slayer does something silly like repents, this has already come to pass in ToM. Without Slayer, Perrin would not have had to man up and start learning about T'A'R. He would not have had to come to grips with himself. And without a strong, accepting Perrin, I think Rand would not have won.

 

Slayer was Perrin's wake-up call. :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

What is with Guitara's prophecy that Luc had to go to the blight for the world to win the last battle? Has any new info come to light about this? And what implications could this have? Slayer is a bad bad thing now because he went to the blight. What could come of this? How is this significant?

 

I think it has more to do with insuring that Rand will be born on Dragonmount according to prophecy.

[Sharaman]

What is with Guitara's prophecy that Luc had to go to the blight for the world to win the last battle? Has any new info come to light about this? And what implications could this have? Slayer is a bad bad thing now because he went to the blight. What could come of this? How is this significant?

 

In my opinion, unless Slayer does something silly like repents, this has already come to pass in ToM. Without Slayer, Perrin would not have had to man up and start learning about T'A'R. He would not have had to come to grips with himself. And without a strong, accepting Perrin, I think Rand would not have won.

 

Slayer was Perrin's wake-up call. :)

Don't forget the Isam part - it might have some impact on Malkier. That's a thought, Mat meets Isam and says Farstrider died clean.

[Cyf]

I think it has more to do with insuring that Rand will be born on Dragonmount according to prophecy.

 

What'd Luc have to do with that? Certainly he is related to Rand, but Gitara sent two pepole off in two different directions. Not sure what Luc going to the Blight has to do with Tigraine going into the Waste.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think it has more to do with insuring that Rand will be born on Dragonmount according to prophecy.

 

What'd Luc have to do with that? Certainly he is related to Rand, but Gitara sent two pepole off in two different directions. Not sure what Luc going to the Blight has to do with Tigraine going into the Waste.

 

Luc meets Isam in that mountain pass. Gets amalgamated, becomes Slayer. Janduin ( Rand's father ) meets Slayer in his Luc guise. Refuses to fight him because he looks so much like Janduin's mate ( Tigraine, Luc's sister ). Slayer kills Janduin. Left on her own, Tigraine accompanies the fighters and ends up giving birth on Dragonmount.

 

If Luc does not go to the Blight, Janduin doesn't get killed, and most likely Tigraine does not give birth on Dragonmount.

[FarShainMael]

Janduin took Shaiel / Tigraine with him into battle. After she was lost on Dragonmount, he resigned as clan chief and went to the Blight.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/j/janduin.html

 

We don't know how Shaiel came to get lost. I don't think this means that she died (because we know from Tam that she died in childbirth); if it did, Janduin would have rescued the infant DR and taken him back to the Aiel.

[Cyf]

This is wrong.

 

She went to DM because Janduin loved her. She died. He went to the Blight to die. Met Luc. Couldn't kill him. He died. The meeting with Luc came /after/ Rand's mother died on Dragonmount. Just looked to be sure. :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

This is wrong.

 

She went to DM because Janduin loved her. She died. He went to the Blight to die. Met Luc. Couldn't kill him. He died. The meeting with Luc came /after/ Rand's mother died on Dragonmount. Just looked to be sure. :)

 

OK, thanks. Sorry for the error.

[Majsju]

Okay this is about a prophecy long before ToM.

 

What is with Guitara's prophecy that Luc had to go to the blight for the world to win the last battle? Has any new info come to light about this? And what implications could this have? Slayer is a bad bad thing now because he went to the blight. What could come of this? How is this significant?

 

Assuming that Gitara actually had a Foretelling, something we do not know for certain. She might just as well have manipulated Luc into believing she had one. Had she not sent him away for a very important reason, it seems very unlikely he would not have ran off searching for Tigraine.

 

Now, I am more inclined to believe that she did in fact have a Foretelling, and Slayer has an important part to play in AMOL. But it would be a lot more fun if Gitara had just manipulated him.