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That flies in the face of everything we've been told about her proficiency in the Dream, that's all. THIS is the inconsistency, not that such things are possible in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

I think that there's different definitions of what counts as "proficiency". You could see when she was spying on the other Forsaken in Dreamland that she was able to access different "levels" of the place, which perhaps the others weren't able to. That's different from having as full an understanding of how "not real" it is. She thinks of it as an actual place which has some properties that can be manipulated, while Perrin is shown it to as something which is wholely imaginary that doesn't really have any properties (in the normal sense of the word), so everything about the place can just be ignored as he sees fit and he shows that to Egwene.

 

Sort of the difference between being an Agent in the Matrix and being Neo. An agent can do a lot of stuff that others can't do, but they're fluff compared to Neo. Perrin wasn't introduced to the place as a realm that had rules, so those rules didn't shape his understanding of it in the same way that someone trained in the place did, so he just decided to be Neo and, due to the nature of Dreamland, that decision made him right.

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Moghedien is just feeble. Accept it and move on.

That flies in the face of everything we've been told about her proficiency in the Dream, that's all. THIS is the inconsistency, not that such things are possible in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

We've been told she sees herself as supreme in Tel'aran'rhiod. We've only seen her rip Birgitte out as any validation of her egotistical belief. Everything else points to her being pretty feeble at best.

 

Lanfear sees herself as a big noise there as well. That's a large part of the tension between the two of them. They both claim the same demesne.

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Did Moraine quote from a Fourth Age history when learning that Rand cleansed Saidin? Here's the full text (emphasis mine):

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was the wound repaired.'"

 

Note that she is quoting something written in the past tense. This use of the past tense is either an editing error or, perhaps, an indication that Moraine had access to future history books. I doubt she found the time to do any reading while captive, but I suspect this has something to do with her two remaining unknown wishes.

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We've been told she sees herself as supreme in Tel'aran'rhiod. We've only seen her rip Birgitte out as any validation of her egotistical belief. Everything else points to her being pretty feeble at best.

 

Yeah, that wasn't impressive at all. Ripping Heroes of the Horn straight out of Tel'aran'rhiod. LOL

 

If this is how Nynaeve brings back Rand from the dead I think maybe you'll change your opinion.

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We've been told she sees herself as supreme in Tel'aran'rhiod. We've only seen her rip Birgitte out as any validation of her egotistical belief. Everything else points to her being pretty feeble at best.

 

Yeah, that wasn't impressive at all. Ripping Heroes of the Horn straight out of Tel'aran'rhiod. LOL

 

If this is how Nynaeve brings back Rand from the dead I think maybe you'll change your opinion.

 

Oh, it's impressive, alright, and I've thought this is how Nynaeve will bring the Dragon back for years. In Moggy's case, though it's an anomaly. It's the only impressive thing we've seen her do. Everything else is myth, legend, or just her own megalomania.

 

Getting captured by Nynaeve wasn't some deep plot either. There was no deception on her part. That's why she earned herself a cour'savra. She got captured and held by a half-trained Third Age child using techniques she was supposed to have been able to break through but couldn't.

 

She's entirely feeble.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Did Moraine quote from a Fourth Age history when learning that Rand cleansed Saidin? Here's the full text (emphasis mine):

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was the wound repaired.'"

I might be prone to modifying the tense after a prophecy has been fulfilled, in the way she did. Wouldn't you agree that one might do that, so as to emphasize that the prophecy has indeed been fulfilled?

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Did Moraine quote from a Fourth Age history when learning that Rand cleansed Saidin? Here's the full text (emphasis mine):

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was the wound repaired.'"

I might be prone to modifying the tense after a prophecy has been fulfilled, in the way she did. Wouldn't you agree that one might do that, so as to emphasize that the prophecy has indeed been fulfilled?

 

No, when you read off a prophecy, you don't change any of the tenses... you want it to read the way it sounded originally to make it more miraculous that it actually did happen. However, she wouldn't be quoting a prophecy if it was from the 4th Age.. then it would just be history, and it wouldn't be very impressive... and let's not even get into all the details about how she could know such a thing. I'm going with a tense mistake here... but where did she get this saying anyway? Was it ever mentioned before this moment?

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Did Moraine quote from a Fourth Age history when learning that Rand cleansed Saidin? Here's the full text (emphasis mine):

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was the wound repaired.'"

I might be prone to modifying the tense after a prophecy has been fulfilled, in the way she did. Wouldn't you agree that one might do that, so as to emphasize that the prophecy has indeed been fulfilled?

 

 

I might modify a prophecy by casting it in the past tense, but I would not use quotation marks to indicate that my modified version was an actual quote. Indeed, when I included TOM's text in my post, I felt compelled to add the emphasis-added parenthetical to indicate to the reader that I had altered the original text.

 

Any way, it really is the internal quotation marks that get me: the author is indicating that Moraine is quoting directly and completely from a source with no modification.

Edited by Scally Wag
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We've seen prophecy use both present and future tense a few times, so why not a pseudo past tense? Also, translating between languages can greatly mess with things like that, and many older prophecies would be recorded in the old tongue.

 

-- dwn

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Did Moraine quote from a Fourth Age history when learning that Rand cleansed Saidin? Here's the full text (emphasis mine):

 

"This changes everything," she said, smile deepening. "He has fixed what he once set wrong. 'By the Dragon came our pain, and by the Dragon was the wound repaired.'"

I might be prone to modifying the tense after a prophecy has been fulfilled, in the way she did. Wouldn't you agree that one might do that, so as to emphasize that the prophecy has indeed been fulfilled?

 

No, when you read off a prophecy, you don't change any of the tenses... you want it to read the way it sounded originally to make it more miraculous that it actually did happen. However, she wouldn't be quoting a prophecy if it was from the 4th Age.. then it would just be history, and it wouldn't be very impressive... and let's not even get into all the details about how she could know such a thing. I'm going with a tense mistake here... but where did she get this saying anyway? Was it ever mentioned before this moment?

 

I am not suggesting that it was a prophecy, but, as you indicated, an actual quote from a history book. Kind of like the Fourth Age histories we are privy to in some of the books. As to how she might have accessed it: she was given three wishes by the Foxes and we only know what one of them is. Just idle speculation....

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Okay, I have to yield to your judgment. Still seems to me like it might work the way I thought (she wasn't reciting a prophecy, she was marveling in its fulfillment), but I'll concede that it's probably an erroneous structure.

 

I think you were definitely right the first time. She was both quoting a prophecy she was familiar with (likely part of the Karaethon Cycle), and marvelling at its fulfillment. The verbal tense was just due to the particular wording of the prophecy, or she may have been paraphrasing for effect.

 

-- dwn

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Even though we finally, FINALLY!!!!! know who done it there are still so many unanswered questions:

 

Why was Graendal in Caemlyn @ that particular time?

 

What was she doing in that wine pantry?

 

Did she go there with the intent to kill Asmo, or was he just unfortunate enough to happen upon her?

 

How did she kill him?

 

What did the place where he was killed have to do with the DO being unable to trasmigrate his soul?

 

and most importantly, how in in the HELL was that in any way, shape or form intuitively obvious?!!!!! LMAO

 

A little known fact is that any death in a wine pantry is beyond the reach of both the DO and the creator.

 

Seriously, avoid them like the plague. Thats what servants are for!

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Okay, I have to yield to your judgment. Still seems to me like it might work the way I thought (she wasn't reciting a prophecy, she was marveling in its fulfillment), but I'll concede that it's probably an erroneous structure.

 

You're probably right, but, if that's the case, I'll be seriously irked by what I believe is really improper grammar in this instance. I can do with typos and misspellings, but you should never use quotation marks if you aren't quoting something accurately. Especially if you are going to cause some poor schmuck like me to wonder about it for a year till your next book comes out.

Edited by Scally Wag
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We've seen prophecy use both present and future tense a few times, so why not a pseudo past tense? Also, translating between languages can greatly mess with things like that, and many older prophecies would be recorded in the old tongue.

 

-- dwn

 

Okay, my last post on this thread, with apologies for belaboring my point:

 

Part of my supposition is actually based on the point that we HAVE previously seen past-tense "prophecy," i.e., portions of text from Fourth Age history books. RJ has given us what is a glimpse of the future through history books written in the future. If Sanderson didn't make a grammatical mistake vis a vis the Moraine quote, therefore, the quote could represent the first time the Randland heros are themselves made privy to the same type of prophecy: a looksie at history books written in the future.

Edited by Scally Wag
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Anyways, here's my question.

What abilities does Perrin's hammer actually have - since it was made with the Power?

 

When Perrin was fighting Trollocs, it seemed to burn them on contact. I think it has some sort of anti-Shadow properties; my husband speculates that it's capable of killing Darkhounds - a very cool ability, if so.

 

Even though we finally, FINALLY!!!!! know who done it there are still so many unanswered questions:

 

Why was Graendal in Caemlyn @ that particular time?

 

What was she doing in that wine pantry?

 

Did she go there with the intent to kill Asmo, or was he just unfortunate enough to happen upon her?

 

How did she kill him?

 

What did the place where he was killed have to do with the DO being unable to trasmigrate his soul?

 

and most importantly, how in in the HELL was that in any way, shape or form intuitively obvious?!!!!! LMAO

 

1: Graendal, Rahvin, Sammael and Lanfear spent the entirety of The Fires of Heaven plotting to make Rand go after Sammael. They used the Queen's palace in Caemlyn as their meeting place, mostly because Lanfear couldn't get Rahvin involved any other way. In one of those counsels, they discussed Asmodean's being a traitor, and at least one of the Forsaken contemplated killing him should they see him again.

 

It was likely that the 4 of them had a meeting scheduled for that day. Then some rather unexpected things happened. First, Rand heard the rumor that Morgase was dead. He'd known that Rahvin was in Caemlyn, and was so upset at not having done anything that he planned to go after him. Then, Lanfear interrogated her darkfriend spy who claimed that Rand had been sleeping with Aviendha, causing her to lose it and attack openly. Moiraine pushed Lanfear into the redstone doorway, preventing her from warning Graendal not to go to Caemlyn after all. Next, Rand skimmed to Caemlyn, setting off Rahvin's net and activating lightning and other nasty traps. Rahvin got himself balefired, leaving lots of residues as a warning to anyone who channels saidin that something big had gone down. Sammael probably took one whiff of that and shut his gate right there. Graendal, on the other hand, probably thought the meeting was still on...

 

2: Asmodean didn't know the exact way to the wine cellar, or even if there was one. He set out wandering, and met Graendal along the way.

 

3: She had planned to kill Asmodean if she ever saw him, I'm sure. However, if she'd known Rand was anywhere near Caemlyn, she'd probably not have come. So we can call it premeditated, but it was still bad luck in Asmodean's case. Graendal most likely showed up for the big meeting, didn't sense the saidin residues that would have tipped Sammael off if he'd come, and didn't see anyone else, so she went wandering around looking for Rahvin. It's also possible that Graendal wasn't actually invited that day, and came because she wanted to have a private chat with Rahvin. Either one is a perfectly good excuse for someone who'd been invited there before.

 

4: Probably balefire, if the DO couldn't reincarnate him.

 

5: I doubt it does. However, Rahvin, who was killed with balefire the same day, and whose death was reported to the Dark One at the same time, was killed with balefire in Tel'aran'rhiod - he died the final death either way. I'm willing to bet that the implication that location was important was a reference to Rahvin, though not having seen the full quote makes it difficult. Also, it's possible that RJ made a slip of the tongue - I've seen how tired Brandon gets at signings, and he usually RAFOs the hard stuff.

 

6: Read The Fires of Heaven again, paying attention to any scene with Graendal in it. Then read the beginning of Lord of Chaos. I shall summarize:

Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul. He is going to report that Rahvin is dead and that Asmodean is a traitor, but the Dark One already knows more about them than Demandred did. He knows Rahvin died by balefire, and that Asmodean is not only a traitor, but a dead traitor. He receives some other instructions, which he passes on to the other Forsaken. Switch to Graendal's point of view, and she remembers that she'd made her own visit to Shayol Ghul just previous to Demandred's. So she clearly had the opportunity to tell the Dark One all about it, just in time for it to become relevant.

Edited by Lironah
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About shielding.

 

When someone is shielded a barrier is placed between them and the Source, right? But if they are already holding the Power, won´t some saidar/saidin already be in them? Like a well. Can they still use that?

Edited by waffle
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Anyways, here's my question.

What abilities does Perrin's hammer actually have - since it was made with the Power?

 

When Perrin was fighting Trollocs, it seemed to burn them on contact. I think it has some sort of anti-Shadow properties; my husband speculates that it's capable of killing Darkhounds - a very cool ability, if so.

 

Even though we finally, FINALLY!!!!! know who done it there are still so many unanswered questions:

 

Why was Graendal in Caemlyn @ that particular time?

 

What was she doing in that wine pantry?

 

Did she go there with the intent to kill Asmo, or was he just unfortunate enough to happen upon her?

 

How did she kill him?

 

What did the place where he was killed have to do with the DO being unable to trasmigrate his soul?

 

and most importantly, how in in the HELL was that in any way, shape or form intuitively obvious?!!!!! LMAO

 

1: Graendal, Rahvin, Sammael and Lanfear spent the entirety of The Fires of Heaven plotting to make Rand go after Sammael. They used the Queen's palace in Caemlyn as their meeting place, mostly because Lanfear couldn't get Rahvin involved any other way. In one of those counsels, they discussed Asmodean's being a traitor, and at least one of the Forsaken contemplated killing him should they see him again.

 

It was likely that the 4 of them had a meeting scheduled for that day. Then some rather unexpected things happened. First, Rand heard the rumor that Morgase was dead. He'd known that Rahvin was in Caemlyn, and was so upset at not having done anything that he planned to go after him. Then, Lanfear interrogated her darkfriend spy who claimed that Rand had been sleeping with Aviendha, causing her to lose it and attack openly. Moiraine pushed Lanfear into the redstone doorway, preventing her from warning Graendal not to go to Caemlyn after all. Next, Rand skimmed to Caemlyn, setting off Rahvin's net and activating lightning and other nasty traps. Rahvin got himself balefired, leaving lots of residues as a warning to anyone who channels saidin that something big had gone down. Sammael probably took one whiff of that and shut his gate right there. Graendal, on the other hand, probably thought the meeting was still on...

 

2: Asmodean didn't know the exact way to the wine cellar, or even if there was one. He set out wandering, and met Graendal along the way.

 

3: She had planned to kill Asmodean if she ever saw him, I'm sure. However, if she'd known Rand was anywhere near Caemlyn, she'd probably not have come. So we can call it premeditated, but it was still bad luck in Asmodean's case. Graendal most likely showed up for the big meeting, didn't sense the saidin residues that would have tipped Sammael off if he'd come, and didn't see anyone else, so she went wandering around looking for Rahvin. It's also possible that Graendal wasn't actually invited that day, and came because she wanted to have a private chat with Rahvin. Either one is a perfectly good excuse for someone who'd been invited there before.

 

4: Probably balefire, if the DO couldn't reincarnate him.

 

5: I doubt it does. However, Rahvin, who was killed with balefire the same day, and whose death was reported to the Dark One at the same time, was killed with balefire in Tel'aran'rhiod - he died the final death either way. I'm willing to bet that the implication that location was important was a reference to Rahvin, though not having seen the full quote makes it difficult. Also, it's possible that RJ made a slip of the tongue - I've seen how tired Brandon gets at signings, and he usually RAFOs the hard stuff.

 

6: Read The Fires of Heaven again, paying attention to any scene with Graendal in it. Then read the beginning of Lord of Chaos. I shall summarize:

Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul. He is going to report that Rahvin is dead and that Asmodean is a traitor, but the Dark One already knows more about them than Demandred did. He knows Rahvin died by balefire, and that Asmodean is not only a traitor, but a dead traitor. He receives some other instructions, which he passes on to the other Forsaken. Switch to Graendal's point of view, and she remembers that she'd made her own visit to Shayol Ghul just previous to Demandred's. So she clearly had the opportunity to tell the Dark One all about it, just in time for it to become relevant.

4 and 5 are dicey. One possible key difference between Rahvin -Asmo is that Rahvin is still connected via the saidin-taint filter. Given RJ's statements opf the How and Where being important, Asmo must have died in TAR/ in a gateway/ somewhere that was not quite the Palace. Graendal may have been sneaking around TAR in the flesh rather than in normal space.

 

The rest of the analysis is cool.

 

It's intuitively obvious because no other candidate except Sammael could have done it without serious logistical issues that can't be answered without wild assumptions. Sammy appeared not to be lying when he claimed ignorance of Asmo's fate.

I've always been a Graendal-did-it theorist so Yeah!!

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About shielding.

 

When someone is shielded a barrier is placed between them and the Source, right? But if they are already holding the Power, won´t some saidar/saidin already be in them? Like a well. Can they still use that?

No :smile:. Well, you knew that already.

I think the reason is you have to have a flow of the Power to actually do stuff.

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Anyways, here's my question.

What abilities does Perrin's hammer actually have - since it was made with the Power?

 

It never needs sharpening!

As stated previously it seem to burn is opponent

But it smashed pretty good the skull of is opponent to , perhaps it somehow enhance the strength of the blow .

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