Verin's Letters

[Sharaman]

Verin did say "open the letter in 10 days and read it".

So no, it's not breaking her oath to GLoD.

 

She added "Then do what it tells you to".

That was the dealbreaker for Mat.

 

She also added "Otherwise wait 30 days"

Which is presumably to ensure he and shen al Calhar is around if he doesn;t read the letter.

That's where it doesn't make sense.

 

All she had to do was to leave it at "open the letter in 10 days and read it" and not say anything more.

[Second Chance]

Was expecting all kinds of interesting info in it.

Sums up my feelings. There was nothing 'exciting' in it at all. I mean, is anyone surprised that the forces of Dark are making attacks?

 

Just another case of something being unable to match up to the level I built it up to.

[Sharaman]

Chesmal, who'd been in prison for a bit, also knew about the impending attack. There was some peculiar loop to the timing.

[TheAngryDruid]

For me, one of the things that really detracted from my enjoyment was the seemingly abject stupidity of many of the main characters. Not that we aren't used to it, but I think having a blind spot about seeing one's one foibles (Mat, Nynaeve, etc) and behaving so foolishly are two different things. Especially from characters who haven't been flighty or mistake prone, like Verin.

 

And Verin's letter was one of them for me. As others have said, why not simply tell Egwene? Or tell Mat it is very important, but not that onerous. Yes, she did say she doubted he'd find her instructions onerous, but she could have been clearer. And this from a woman who hadn't made a serious mistake in over 70 years? I think we can all say that streak is over. Why not simply leave a letter for a sister that isn't Black and can travel? You know she'll keep her word, and can fix the problem.

 

And Mat, despite liking Verin, still doesn't trust her enough to open the letter, even after she said it wouldn't be onerous.

 

I thought this plot line was poorly done, and gimmicky.

[masty]

Verin did say "open the letter in 10 days and read it".

So no, it's not breaking her oath to GLoD.

 

She added "Then do what it tells you to".

That was the dealbreaker for Mat.

 

She also added "Otherwise wait 30 days"

Which is presumably to ensure he and shen al Calhar is around if he doesn;t read the letter.

That's where it doesn't make sense.

 

All she had to do was to leave it at "open the letter in 10 days and read it" and not say anything more.

 

I don't think verin said read it she said open the letter and do what it says. The only way to make sense out of verin's action is to believe that she was revealing shadows plans so the only way to circumvent DO's oaths is by acting the way she did.

[Maji]

I have to agree that if Verin said to Mat "Hey buddy, open this letter in 10 days in case I don't come back to get it from you." Mat would have opened it and went crazy with defense preparations. Adding the "do whatever it says" in there was what made Mat wary. Mat would have done it either way. WAY TO GO VERIN D:

 

Oliver is definitely getting creepy but I also got the impression that the gate in Tear was destroyed, most likely by whoever came to get Lanfear (I'm going with Moridin on this one). I've never been overly of a fan of Oliver, didn't really like him but nothing against him either. Now he just seems like a socio-path with an agenda in the making like everyone has said :x

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I don't think verin said read it she said open the letter and do what it says. The only way to make sense out of verin's action is to believe that she was revealing shadows plans so the only way to circumvent DO's oaths is by acting the way she did.

 

I think so too. She was required by her Oaths to structure the agreement in such a way the DO's plans would not be revealed as a result of her actions. She knew he wouldn't want to follow her instructions, so she made that a requirement of opening it and throwing it away without reading it after the invasion of Camelyn happened the other option. What she was counting on was his curiosity winning out over his honour, so the DO's plans would end up being revealed despite her efforts to not reveal them. It's a fine line that holds to the letter of the Oath while breaking the spirit of it, but Aes Sedai are quite skilled at parsing their statements in that way. She just misjudged him.

 

I do not, however, see why "Oh by the way, Trollocs are going to invade Camelyn through the Waygate in a month" would have been so difficult to mention to Egwene instead of wasting time blabbing on about the tea.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well Olver is supposed to have a definite function.

 

Rather than being Gaidal Cain, it seems clear he's Annikin Skywalker.

[Plato's Cave]

As good a topic as any for my first post here...

 

Everyone in this thread appears to be overlooking a detail in Verin's letter. She writes that she 'had planned to return and you of your oath in a single day' and that 'there are many potential complications to my next task...and a large chance that I will not survive'.

 

Now, this has given me a headache. What was her 'next task' exactly? It can't be her dealings with Egwene, because she knows her imminent death is absolutely necessary for it to occur - which assumes that Verin really was a really certain and meticulous planner - or, quite improbably, that she hadn't figured out how she could reveal the information to Egwene but knew that her death might be necessary.

 

I don't think we have all the details quite yet, I feel as though we are missing something and are being too hasty in condemning Verin's 'stupidity'. Our theories about Verin are 'incomplete'. Perhaps she had a 'next task' that wasn't her chat with Egwene, and then in that task something went out of her control or learnt something new that meant she had to hurry to meet Egwene than return to Mat Cauthon?

[Bob T Dwarf]

As good a topic as any for my first post here...

 

Everyone in this thread appears to be overlooking a detail in Verin's letter. She writes that she 'had planned to return and you of your oath in a single day' and that 'there are many potential complications to my next task...and a large chance that I will not survive'.

 

Now, this has given me a headache. What was her 'next task' exactly? It can't be her dealings with Egwene, because she knows her imminent death is absolutely necessary for it to occur - which assumes that Verin really was a really certain and meticulous planner - or, quite improbably, that she hadn't figured out how she could reveal the information to Egwene but knew that her death might be necessary.

 

I don't think we have all the details quite yet, I feel as though we are missing something and are being too hasty in condemning Verin's 'stupidity'. Our theories about Verin are 'incomplete'. Perhaps she had a 'next task' that wasn't her chat with Egwene, and then in that task something went out of her control or learnt something new that meant she had to hurry to meet Egwene than return to Mat Cauthon?

 

Her next task was probably to get hold of the Oath Rod and remove her BA oaths. She allowed for the possibility that she wouldn't be able to do that, thus her wording about "complications."

[MatthewWallace]

Now, this has given me a headache. What was her 'next task' exactly? It can't be her dealings with Egwene, because she knows her imminent death is absolutely necessary for it to occur -

 

Not true. Death was plan B, plan A was to steal the oath rod and unswear her oaths and tell Egwene without have to kill herself. The BA hunters had the oathrod for their purposes so Verin couldn't find it.

 

I'm not so disappointed with the letter. I think Verin had knowlege about the battle plans but did not know exactly when the invasion would start. If something happened to her she wanted Mat's army at Caemlyn so they could fight on that front. The point of the letter was not to actually convey information to him but to make him stay there long enough for the invasion to start. I think she correctly guessed that he would refuse to open it and that it would act like a leash holding his forces there.

[Goramier]

My thoughts:

 

First off, didn't Elaida have a foretelling that Andor or Cam would be the key to the last battle? I had started thinking it was about those dragons but then the end came. Now I think they will have to retake it and win a very important victory or basically it will become the epicenter of the fight and their win will require them to take it, thus it being the key. I also agree that what Verrin did was a very bad lapse of judgement. It could be perhaps because of the situation she was under but it seems like a gross misjudgement for someone like her.

 

She had to know how much Mat disliked/mistrusted Aes Sadai. She also must have known or heard that Mat kept to his word. It seems like a large step to take for her to have trusted Mat with either breaking his word letting his curiousity get the best of him, to open that letter on time when she so easily could have gotten around it. She said she would have been there in a day unless dead, thus she should have told Matt to open it if you don't see me a day (or even a couple) days after you reach there. She also could have just said, Mat look, go there or Elayne will be in danger...if you don't hear from me a couple days after arriving, open this, do what it says and you will protect her...if you don't, she will die and Andor will likely fall. No strings, no silly Aes Sadai stuff involved. Rather she takes a huge leep of faith and leaves it up to his curiousity and blindly trusts he will open it. Either way, it just seems a very poorly made scene for a character (Verrin) who proved to be so otherwise intelligent.

[Plato's Cave]

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

[Mehn_Deke]

 

On the other side Elayne wound up going to Cairhien with the Nobles and their armsmen, presumably leaving the full Band camped outside of Caemlyn (latest count of the band around 30,000?) - along with a large number of mercenary groups (Mat estimated 10,000 combined), and whatever forces Elayne had left (Presumably only the guard, Egwene had wanted everything at the field and we know Elayne told the nobles in Cairhien she was going to take their armies so I'm certain she took Andor's). They should be able to make a fight at retaking the city even without reinforcements assuming that Dark Friend channelers aren't present in too large of numbers (possible due to proximity of the black tower but I don't think likely due to the brewing issues there). I can't imagine the dreamspike effecting the area either, I can't see Taim moving it away from the Black Tower, and unless I'm mistaken when Perrin was fighting Isam he mentioned being able to travel 4 leagues from the center to the edge and the Black Tower was an hourish ride from Caemlyn.

 

This is what interests me. You have the Band there for the retaking/defense of the city. You have a lot of mercenaries that Elayne has been trying to find a way to integrate into the forces of Andor. The Band is now a (semi) force of Andor. I wager we're going to see the band come out of this battle with even more force than they went in with.

 

Not to mention we can be pretty sure that Talmanes isn't a DF!

[MatthewWallace]

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

[DA_]

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

 

 

He mentions the letter later on in the book as well, after Cadsuane brings the Domani King (can't remember his name) back to Tear Rand explains that "in a letter from a friend" the White Tower was holding the original King of Illian. So I'm assuming that the letter was from Verin, and would potentially have included more information.

 

(I believe it was Tiana who gave him the letter, by the way).

 

 

My thoughts:

 

First off, didn't Elaida have a foretelling that Andor or Cam would be the key to the last battle? I had started thinking it was about those dragons but then the end came. Now I think they will have to retake it and win a very important victory or basically it will become the epicenter of the fight and their win will require them to take it, thus it being the key.

 

Think the foretelling was related directly to the Lion throne and not Andor/Caemlyn itself - that Elayne and perhaps Gawyn/Galad (Certainly they have done important things but whether or not they would have been part of the foretelling I'm not certain) would be the key to the last battle. Although it does seem that with Caemlyn having the Dragons and the Black Tower's proximity that it has to be one of the remaining key areas.

[TMan]

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

 

Didn't we also see Galad with a letter with a red seal?

[Sharaman]

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

 

Didn't we also see Galad with a letter with a red seal?

Verin's other letters

1) Rand given one by Tiana. He hasn't read it onscreen.

2) Alanna given one by somebody. That sends her scarpering to Arafel in a hurry and using somewhat mysterious means. (She channels but not enough to open a Gate).

[Tom Sawyer]

Think the foretelling was related directly to the Lion throne and not Andor/Caemlyn itself - that Elayne and perhaps Gawyn/Galad (Certainly they have done important things but whether or not they would have been part of the foretelling I'm not certain) would be the key to the last battle. Although it does seem that with Caemlyn having the Dragons and the Black Tower's proximity that it has to be one of the remaining key areas.

 

The foretelling was that the royal line of Andor was the key to winning the Last Battle. At the time of the foretelling, Tigraine was the Daughter-Heir and she had Rand as a kid, so it appears to me to be directly referencing him.

 

Edit - Could this have an influence on the Seanchan storyline? Right now, Elaida's telling Tuon everything she knows and she could tell her about the foretelling, while not knowing that it's talking about Rand and just thinking it means the Andoran royals in general. That might make Tuon change her plans and attack Camelyn instead of Tar Valon to bring Andor under her control for the Last Battle and show up just in time to see a bunch of Trollocs ravaging the place.

[hotpocket2006]

I was very let down by what Verin's letter said. I was expecting something a little bit more than that...

[Alanna]

Yeah, Olver was kind of creepy LOL. Not sure why, exactly. But when I started reading his POV, I had this weird feeling he was going to do something nutty.

 

Maybe Verin's oaths did have something to do with how she gave her instructions to Mat, but I don't see how laying off on the bit about 'you MUST do this' would've gone against her oaths. Because I agree that's what messed it up; Mat didn't like being told he had to do something. She overestimated his curiosity and underestimated his character, because why wouldn't he go close the Waygate?

 

That said, I wasn't at all disappointed by the letter; I think it's one scene that got one of the strongest reactions from me. In that, I started swearing at the book and couldn't stop LOL. Also, there's more, I think, to learn from Verin that we haven't heard yet. In addition to the letter given to Rand from Tiana, Alanna also got one, as did Galad.

 

It would be cool if Olver ends up helping in closing the Waygate.

 

Chesmal, who'd been in prison for a bit, also knew about the impending attack. There was some peculiar loop to the timing.

 

But it doesn't seem that she knew of the attack before she was in prison; Elayne was quite certain that Chesmal had gotten news from someone, somehow, while she was in prison. I think that's what she was trying to figure out when the other Black sisters came in and interrupted.

[Manetheren Lord]

Verin's mistake was that she underestimated Mat's character, in two ways:

 

1. She assumed he would either break his word, or that his childish curiosity would overcome his obvious hesitation to blindly agree to her orders, and

2. She assumed that her orders for him to follow her instructions would somehow do what Mat's little conscience would not, knowing the danger of the Waygate. Which was both foolish and an underestimation on Verin's part.

 

It's not all that surprising that she underestimates him, though...she only knew him when he was under the influence of the dagger. She literally had not seen him at all since he woke up from being Healed.

 

No I don't think it's entirely Verin's fault. I remember my brother and I were reading the Seven Striped Lass on dragonmount before this book was out. We were thinking man there's no way Mat won't open that letter it fits into his character entirely, he just can't resist looking into it. Tell me if some of you agree with me that despite that fact that he did actually not open the letter, does it not fit into his character to do it? Which brings me to the question, why didn't Mat open it? The only thing I can think of is that he didn't want anything that would hold him from saving Moiraine as that was more important than anything Verin could make him do.

[Cazajay]

I was just thinking. Would it be a bad thing if Caemlyn fell? Then Rand could funnel the enormous army of Trollocs towards the Seanchan, and let them destroy each other. After that, The Seanchan will be much more agreeable.

 

I believe that the timeline could be about the Waygate, I thought Loial and another Ogier was shutting the Waygates down?

I like the thought of shadowspawn against Seanchan but the Dreadlords are going to give them proof of why all channellers should be leashed. Mind you what will they do with the Men?

On the otherhand for all we know it could be the Seanchan burning Caemlyn as it's close to Tar Valon, the scene only revealed the city burning. Tuon got Travelling from snivelling Elaida I can't believe she tried to bargain her release in exchange of other Aes Sedai?

[Cazajay]

Verin's other letters the ones we know of one was given to Rand, Galad and Alanna did I miss one?

 

Is it possible that Verin is using her knowledge of her life as a DF in trying to make the Dragon Prophecy true as apposed to the Shadow Prophecy?

 

She also said in Mat's letter if you are reading this then Im dead. Mat was told to wait 10 days as Verin needed to get around her Dark Oath. If she lived she would have dealt

with it as she was going to try and get the oath off of her

with the Oath Rod. If it failed she was chosing poison,

which unfortunately is what happenned.

 

 

I don't think she expected to die it's a shame Mat was so stubborn, but perhaps Verin expected this maybe Caemlyn needed to fall or all else would be lost?

[Packar]

Verin could have laid wards on the letter - in fact im very surprised Olver & co could read anything at all. Perhaps when Mat eventually reads the letter he will see something different? Not that the attack through the waygate won't happen, but might there be something else in the letter only Mat can see?