The White Tower

[Random Man]

And now for something completely different...yet related to the thread title.

 

Anyone else feel that Nicola's death was entirely gratuitous? I'd completely missed her death on my first read and only saw it on re-read after seeing a posting of her dying. It took up all of a paragraph and didn't really add anything to the scene other than increase the body count and do away with a novice who at that point in the story could probably just fade into the background anyway. Conversely, a half-page POV of Nicola grabbing the ter'angreal to enter T'A'R and "save the day" or something just before getting blasted, and us seeing her last thoughts on-screen, would have wrapped up her thread nicely. IMO gore for the sake of gore just doesn't work as well in WOT as it does in a B-rated action flick.

[WhiskyJack]

I felt bad for her. Her loyalty and eagerness got the best of her. An unnecessary death IMO.

[Sharaman]

I'm assuming Lan has already been helped.

There's a 20-day gap in timelines between Rand's journey to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) where he intended to spend a day or so and the Ituralde rescue at Maradon (VoG+25).

There's reason to believe that the attacks into the Borderlands were coordinated. We don't know about Tarwins' Gap but Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea were.

They started around 25 days before Field of Merrilor (VoG+27) - The WT already heard about them by VoG +3.

Rand did nothing about the BT during that period.

There's a throwaway line from Bashere to Ituralde (paraphrased) "We should have got here days ago".

Given Travel, they must have been held up fighting somewhere.

I'm presuming that Rand-Bashere's force of AM, AS and the Dragonsworn Army deployed to Tarwin's Gap.

Wait a minute, how do we know there's a twenty gap between the visit to Bandar Eban and his rescue of Ituralde?

Edit: Many textual references - I'm giving some

 

Tear is VoG+2/3 (he's been away three days - VoG was the second of those.)

Bandar Eban is VoG+4.

Rand gathers forces the day he returns to Tear and says he'll leave the next day for BE.

(Independent confirmation also from Nyn's timeline)

Then Ituralde returns from Maradon with Rand, who spends one day there, and says "We'll visit the Borderlanders tomorrow" when he's back in the Stone.

He then presents Alsalam to Ituralde (also fits because he'd sent Cadsuane off on VoG+2/3 to hunt for her.)

He meets the Borderlanders and says "We'll head to Field of Merrilor tomorrow".

(Independent - Perrin sees him talking)

Then he's in FoM

(further confirmation he tells the Borderlanders "I didn't have the memories".

Clear timelines.

Big Gap between Bandar Eban and Maradon.

 

While this is a good summary, I don't think we can say for certain that Bandar Eban is the day after the return to Tear, only that it happened after Tear and before Maradon. If you have a textual confirmation, I'd love to see it (beyond Rand saying that was where he was going next when he got to Tear).

 

Regardless, for argument's sake, assume Bandar Eban happened later. There's still a 20-day gap in the timeline.

He didn't visit the BT, or the Borderlanders.

So what did he do?

Lan is the only thread I can think of, in that timeline, which fits.

 

Before he left Tear, he made a brief trip to "fetch something". I'm assuming that was Callandor because he has it when he meets the Borderlanders. It could be part of the offscreen conversation he has with Cadsuane when he tells her to look for Alasalam - he asked her to direct him to wherever she'd parked it.

If it's something else, maybe - but what?

 

Hmm...puzzling. Doesn't Ituralde remark that the soldiers Rand brought with him looked clean well rested? Doesn't seem like they were doing much fighting in that time.

 

Maybe in contrast to Ituralde's own parlous state?

Or they've done the job in Tarwin's Gap and had a bit of a break.

I dunno but the Rand timeline makes it very clear there's a missing period of roughly 20 days.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I felt bad for her. Her loyalty and eagerness got the best of her. An unnecessary death IMO.

 

I agree. SUCH a waste of potential ... in a single blast. I actually liked Nicola in KoD, TGS and ToM. Pity we didn't see more of her.

[Kidicaris]

And now for something completely different...yet related to the thread title.

 

Anyone else feel that Nicola's death was entirely gratuitous? I'd completely missed her death on my first read and only saw it on re-read after seeing a posting of her dying. It took up all of a paragraph and didn't really add anything to the scene other than increase the body count and do away with a novice who at that point in the story could probably just fade into the background anyway. Conversely, a half-page POV of Nicola grabbing the ter'angreal to enter T'A'R and "save the day" or something just before getting blasted, and us seeing her last thoughts on-screen, would have wrapped up her thread nicely. IMO gore for the sake of gore just doesn't work as well in WOT as it does in a B-rated action flick.

 

Ya, her death was surprising, for all the trouble she's been, to then kill her so offhandedly. In the end she was not one of the Wondergirls, Nyneave and Co. and Nicola have a lot in common, unfortunately Nicola wasn't significant enough to the plot.

 

I can't say I saw Nicola having a happy end though, something about that first boat ride to Salidar, with such a pathetic group getting into the girls' hearts. Including Moghedien.

Granted she had a redemption of sorts in the WT, with Egwene, but that girl had no scruples. However noble her motives (thirst for knowledge)she made some pretty bad choices--one that ultimately killed her. I am reminded of Verin, whose thirst for knowledge got her into trouble too.

 

Had Nicola lived, I wonder if her character would have been more susceptible to corruption, and her thirst to learn more about the Power lead her to the Shadow. We will never know, but I think Nicola was a bullet dodged--again.

[capuga]

And now for something completely different...yet related to the thread title.

 

Anyone else feel that Nicola's death was entirely gratuitous? I'd completely missed her death on my first read and only saw it on re-read after seeing a posting of her dying. It took up all of a paragraph and didn't really add anything to the scene other than increase the body count and do away with a novice who at that point in the story could probably just fade into the background anyway. Conversely, a half-page POV of Nicola grabbing the ter'angreal to enter T'A'R and "save the day" or something just before getting blasted, and us seeing her last thoughts on-screen, would have wrapped up her thread nicely. IMO gore for the sake of gore just doesn't work as well in WOT as it does in a B-rated action flick.

 

Ya, her death was surprising, for all the trouble she's been, to then kill her so offhandedly. In the end she was not one of the Wondergirls, Nyneave and Co. and Nicola have a lot in common, unfortunately Nicola wasn't significant enough to the plot.

 

I can't say I saw Nicola having a happy end though, something about that first boat ride to Salidar, with such a pathetic group getting into the girls' hearts. Including Moghedien.

Granted she had a redemption of sorts in the WT, with Egwene, but that girl had no scruples. However noble her motives (thirst for knowledge)she made some pretty bad choices--one that ultimately killed her. I am reminded of Verin, whose thirst for knowledge got her into trouble too.

 

Had Nicola lived, I wonder if her character would have been more susceptible to corruption, and her thirst to learn more about the Power lead her to the Shadow. We will never know, but I think Nicola was a bullet dodged--again.

 

I'm actually a little surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of Nicola's death up until now. I see that one of the major complaints about WOT is that no major characters die. But I feel that Nicola's death was a fairly major one. She might not of been one of the Supergirls but she was a character that had gotten a lot of scene time, was strong in the Power, had the Foretelling, had had a little bit of a redemption arc (from being a blackmailer/runaway to being a well behaved novice with fierce loyalty to Egwene). And I thought her death was very much in character for her - ambitious and reaching above her current station by sneaking one of the dream ter'angreals and joining in a battle that she was not qualified for.

 

I thought this was a relatively major and sad death that should occasion more comment.

[capuga]

It also hasn't been proven how far his skill is degraded by losing his hand. and the questioner only mentioned those 3 blade masters, not any of the others so Rand could still be behind Lan.

 

A lot, simply because so many of the sword-forms are two-handed ones. He's surely still excellent with the one-handed ones, but he's completely incapable of the others.

What if he channels himself a prosthetic hand of air?

:0

 

I've always wondered about this myself. I think he could make a hand out of air that would hold the sword, but the problem would be that it wouldn't have the flexibility and ability to move that his wrist would have so I don't think it would be that effective in a sword fight.

[dwn]

And now for something completely different...yet related to the thread title.

 

Anyone else feel that Nicola's death was entirely gratuitous? I'd completely missed her death on my first read and only saw it on re-read after seeing a posting of her dying. It took up all of a paragraph and didn't really add anything to the scene other than increase the body count and do away with a novice who at that point in the story could probably just fade into the background anyway. Conversely, a half-page POV of Nicola grabbing the ter'angreal to enter T'A'R and "save the day" or something just before getting blasted, and us seeing her last thoughts on-screen, would have wrapped up her thread nicely. IMO gore for the sake of gore just doesn't work as well in WOT as it does in a B-rated action flick.

 

Ya, her death was surprising, for all the trouble she's been, to then kill her so offhandedly. In the end she was not one of the Wondergirls, Nyneave and Co. and Nicola have a lot in common, unfortunately Nicola wasn't significant enough to the plot.

 

I can't say I saw Nicola having a happy end though, something about that first boat ride to Salidar, with such a pathetic group getting into the girls' hearts. Including Moghedien.

Granted she had a redemption of sorts in the WT, with Egwene, but that girl had no scruples. However noble her motives (thirst for knowledge)she made some pretty bad choices--one that ultimately killed her. I am reminded of Verin, whose thirst for knowledge got her into trouble too.

 

Had Nicola lived, I wonder if her character would have been more susceptible to corruption, and her thirst to learn more about the Power lead her to the Shadow. We will never know, but I think Nicola was a bullet dodged--again.

 

I'm actually a little surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of Nicola's death up until now. I see that one of the major complaints about WOT is that no major characters die. But I feel that Nicola's death was a fairly major one. She might not of been one of the Supergirls but she was a character that had gotten a lot of scene time, was strong in the Power, had the Foretelling, had had a little bit of a redemption arc (from being a blackmailer/runaway to being a well behaved novice with fierce loyalty to Egwene). And I thought her death was very much in character for her - ambitious and reaching above her current station by sneaking one of the dream ter'angreals and joining in a battle that she was not qualified for.

 

I thought this was a relatively major and sad death that should occasion more comment.

 

I think it they way it was written spoiled the tragedy. As someone mentioned above, a short POV from Nicola, or even a more nuanced death scene could have given it more impact. Another option would have been to have Nicola found dead with a dream ter'angreal after the fight. A scene like that could be written with more emotional weight than one in a fast-paced battle.

 

I'm mostly disappointed in Nicola's quick end because I found her a lot more interesting than most other tertiary characters. I too pegged her as a likely candidate for turning to the shadow (she had a lot in common with Mesaana, Sammael and Demandred), and written right, it could have been a very powerful plot twist. So much has been made of people turning to the Shadow out of greed or despair, but we've never seen anyone--especially someone we like--actually go through Graendal's 'first painful steps'. It makes the DFs feel like caricatures.

 

-- dwn

[capuga]

And now for something completely different...yet related to the thread title.

 

Anyone else feel that Nicola's death was entirely gratuitous? I'd completely missed her death on my first read and only saw it on re-read after seeing a posting of her dying. It took up all of a paragraph and didn't really add anything to the scene other than increase the body count and do away with a novice who at that point in the story could probably just fade into the background anyway. Conversely, a half-page POV of Nicola grabbing the ter'angreal to enter T'A'R and "save the day" or something just before getting blasted, and us seeing her last thoughts on-screen, would have wrapped up her thread nicely. IMO gore for the sake of gore just doesn't work as well in WOT as it does in a B-rated action flick.

 

Ya, her death was surprising, for all the trouble she's been, to then kill her so offhandedly. In the end she was not one of the Wondergirls, Nyneave and Co. and Nicola have a lot in common, unfortunately Nicola wasn't significant enough to the plot.

 

I can't say I saw Nicola having a happy end though, something about that first boat ride to Salidar, with such a pathetic group getting into the girls' hearts. Including Moghedien.

Granted she had a redemption of sorts in the WT, with Egwene, but that girl had no scruples. However noble her motives (thirst for knowledge)she made some pretty bad choices--one that ultimately killed her. I am reminded of Verin, whose thirst for knowledge got her into trouble too.

 

Had Nicola lived, I wonder if her character would have been more susceptible to corruption, and her thirst to learn more about the Power lead her to the Shadow. We will never know, but I think Nicola was a bullet dodged--again.

 

I'm actually a little surprised that there hasn't been more discussion of Nicola's death up until now. I see that one of the major complaints about WOT is that no major characters die. But I feel that Nicola's death was a fairly major one. She might not of been one of the Supergirls but she was a character that had gotten a lot of scene time, was strong in the Power, had the Foretelling, had had a little bit of a redemption arc (from being a blackmailer/runaway to being a well behaved novice with fierce loyalty to Egwene). And I thought her death was very much in character for her - ambitious and reaching above her current station by sneaking one of the dream ter'angreals and joining in a battle that she was not qualified for.

 

I thought this was a relatively major and sad death that should occasion more comment.

 

I think it they way it was written spoiled the tragedy. As someone mentioned above, a short POV from Nicola, or even a more nuanced death scene could have given it more impact. Another option would have been to have Nicola found dead with a dream ter'angreal after the fight. A scene like that could be written with more emotional weight than one in a fast-paced battle.

 

I'm mostly disappointed in Nicola's quick end because I found her a lot more interesting than most other tertiary characters. I too pegged her as a likely candidate for turning to the shadow (she had a lot in common with Mesaana, Sammael and Demandred), and written right, it could have been a very powerful plot twist. So much has been made of people turning to the Shadow out of greed or despair, but we've never seen anyone--especially someone we like--actually go through Graendal's 'first painful steps'. It makes the DFs feel like caricatures.

 

-- dwn

 

I kinda agree that her death could have been given more depth and word count in how it was written and that people would have had more of a reaction then. I guess I just focused on the fact that it was so in character for her to be there and that it was realistic that she was killed in a battle of that magnitude when she really didn't have much training in TAR. I also thought early in the series that she was someone who might turn to the Shadow to further her ambitions, but I didn't get that same feeling in the last few books.

[Kidicaris]

Speaking of tertiary characters we really enjoyed, I thought Faolain was an amazing character. If ever there was a Red in the making, a rival, a menacing personality. Then she run off to Salidar and joins the Blues? I love it! I thought she was complicated and well written. But she's last seen on the back of a milk carton.

 

According to the wiki, she was sent with the delegation to the Black Tower and may now be missing? Oh slam, if she's 13x13'd, or dead, I'll be distraught.

[Kahlika]

I never saw Nicola as that major of a character. Her usefulness as a character was pretty much over when Egwene reunited the Tower. It struck me as killing her off to tie up a loose plot point, which given the time and space BS has to finish everything else up isn't really suprising.

 

But then I found her obnoxious when she did appear, it seemed a fairly fitting way for her to die.

[Viperswhip]

I want to know how in TGS Egwene saves the head of the Green Ajah from being taken by the Seanchan, and then in this book the Green Ajah (every sitter) is plotting against her. What?!!

 

Oh and with regards to Nicola, it finally bit her in the ass that she disobeyed orders and jumped ahead of herself. She had little to no training in TAR. I wasn't surprised it finally got her killed.

[Durinax]

its kind of funny how Egwene is following almost the same path as Suian.

 

they are both using novices/accepted to flush out the enemies. I wonder if this path is going to end the same way

[Durinax]

its kind of funny how Egwene is following almost the same path as Suian.

 

they are both using novices/accepted to flush out the enemies. I wonder if this path is going to end the same way

[Kidicaris]

its kind of funny how Egwene is following almost the same path as Suian.

 

they are both using novices/accepted to flush out the enemies. I wonder if this path is going to end the same way

 

Maybe in the fullness of time, an older bullheaded Egwene will hang herself with a noose braided with good intentions and honor, but the next book is our last book.

 

I do think that her political rivals in the Hall will make a HUGE fuss about Nicola's death and indeed the death of ANY sister in that fight, mostly because they (the Hall) did not know about the threat, were not told about the threat, were not allowed to decided on a course of action etc etc etc. Egwene and her little clique might find themselves in as much hot water as they do in the lime light for defeating a Forsaken.

 

This all goes back to the ridiculousness that are Romanda and Lelaine. When will those schemers finally give up (be defeated)? Egwene's contrived out wrangling of their latest attempt to usurp her authority just belied their absurdity. Ladies, you've been matched and outplayed, many times now. Give it up and start working together because it's the damn END TIMES. I'm so tired of seeing this particular Aes Sedai cat fight that I am starting to hope Deus Ex Cadsuane will Travel in and settle Romanda and Lelaine once and for all.

[David Selig]

I want to know how in TGS Egwene saves the head of the Green Ajah from being taken by the Seanchan, and then in this book the Green Ajah (every sitter) is plotting against her. What?!!

 

Oh and with regards to Nicola, it finally bit her in the ass that she disobeyed orders and jumped ahead of herself. She had little to no training in TAR. I wasn't surprised it finally got her killed.

This is the mentality of the Aes Sedai, they are always plotting, can't help themselves. And for some reason are almost incapable of feeling and showing gratitude.

 

Nicola was basically an earlier and less lucky version of Egwene, she always wanted to learn everything really fast and thought rules didn't apply to her. Unfortunately for her she's not a main character so the outcome was logical.

[DemandredFO]

If there was enough time left it would be wonderful to see Egwene hang herself but there isn't. Though I do think Rand has given her sufficient to hurt herself. I don't know who I'd want in a real fight between the Tower and the Seanchan but I have a feeling the Shadow will crash that party.

[sleepinghour]

Nicola was basically an earlier and less lucky version of Egwene, she always wanted to learn everything really fast and thought rules didn't apply to her. Unfortunately for her she's not a main character so the outcome was logical.

 

I don't think she deserved a grander exit than that. Nynaeve and Elayne paid her and Areina's boat fare and took them under their protection; in return, they tried to blackmail them. Nicola in particular was so obnoxious that the other novices covered up her running away because they were glad to be rid of her. Her turning into an Egwene fangirl doesn't change the fact that she never was a particularly nice person.

[Mazerom]

Anyone have any thoughts of future dissolution of the Ajahs? The Aes Sedai during the AoL did not fall into these seven arbitrary categories. In fact, they were non-existent. I know with only one book remaining we cannot possibly see some of these events, but maybe a hint here or there of their possibility.

[dalewb]

Anyone have any thoughts of future dissolution of the Ajahs? The Aes Sedai during the AoL did not fall into these seven arbitrary categories. In fact, they were non-existent. I know with only one book remaining we cannot possibly see some of these events, but maybe a hint here or there of their possibility.

I doubt we'll see any such thing. Egwene is all about unity and dissolving ajahs wouldn't exactly help that. I can't imagine what would cause the aes sedai to abandon the organizational structure of the ajahs, unless an ajah lost all its members in some catastrophe (like the last battle). Over centuries, change would occur - perhaps the ajahs might disband over a long period of time. Eventually, the wheel will turn till the first age is reached again - the DO sealed up in his prison. Who knows how things will be when a new age of legends comes about? Maybe the Aelfinn and Eelfinn will come out of their realm to teach humans about the one power and the crafting of objects of the power again.

 

Then again, if Avienda's visit to the "Way Back Machine" is any indication, the Seanchan might very well destroy the WT. They probably wouldn't get every AS so the remnant would establish itself somewhere and rebuild... New White Tower, new society of aes sedai, new leaders, new customs, new everything. Still, they would be comprised of AS that were members of ajahs so they might just continue that one custom.

[randsc]

I would be upset if Aviendha's visions came true, because the Aiel are about the most admirable people in these books and I would hate to see that be their end.

 

The fact that the White Tower has apparently fallen in that world (which we know because only the BT and Aiel continue to resist) would ALMOST make up for it.

 

Truly, a revolting organization.

[Mazerom]

Anyone have any thoughts of future dissolution of the Ajahs? The Aes Sedai during the AoL did not fall into these seven arbitrary categories. In fact, they were non-existent. I know with only one book remaining we cannot possibly see some of these events, but maybe a hint here or there of their possibility.

I doubt we'll see any such thing. Egwene is all about unity and dissolving ajahs wouldn't exactly help that. I can't imagine what would cause the aes sedai to abandon the organizational structure of the ajahs, unless an ajah lost all its members in some catastrophe (like the last battle). Over centuries, change would occur - perhaps the ajahs might disband over a long period of time. Eventually, the wheel will turn till the first age is reached again - the DO sealed up in his prison. Who knows how things will be when a new age of legends comes about? Maybe the Aelfinn and Eelfinn will come out of their realm to teach humans about the one power and the crafting of objects of the power again.

 

Then again, if Avienda's visit to the "Way Back Machine" is any indication, the Seanchan might very well destroy the WT. They probably wouldn't get every AS so the remnant would establish itself somewhere and rebuild... New White Tower, new society of aes sedai, new leaders, new customs, new everything. Still, they would be comprised of AS that were members of ajahs so they might just continue that one custom.

The Seven Ajahs seem to be too specific and focus solely on their tasks to the detriment of innovation. I'd be interested in seeing something like Nynaeve's speech about how insular the WT has become aimed towards a more friendly and creative WT. Progress would be nice.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all. I agree about Nicola's death, but have a different angle on it. I am wondering why Egwene killed her. Egwene, an expert in Telahran'riad made a HARD FLOOR when she saw Nicola fall. Egwene could have easily made a soft cushion to catch her, surround her in a coccoon of air, anything she wished. Instead, Egwene chose the floor. I wonder how much of it was intentioned? Or was she being too concrete (no pun intended) in her thinking, only creating a floor, well, on the floor?

[Viperswhip]

I wish we'd gotten an indication of how many of the Black Ajah the Wise Ones killed in that battle. We didn't get to see them actually fighting anyone, just running around showing off their super cool abilities but I am guessing they killed a few.

[MauricXe]

I would be upset if Aviendha's visions came true, because the Aiel are about the most admirable people in these books and I would hate to see that be their end.

 

The fact that the White Tower has apparently fallen in that world (which we know because only the BT and Aiel continue to resist) would ALMOST make up for it.

 

Truly, a revolting organization.

 

Heh, although I'm not the biggest fan of the WT, I would hate to see the Seanchan destroy the Aes Sedai.

 

Ya know, if the White Tower would only modify their three oaths, then they would have no problem in destroying the Seanchan.