The White Tower

[PrinceOfRavens]

regarding egwene and gawyn, yes she had some horrible opinions, and was pretty much unreasonable and arrogant much of the time, but one must also see her side. She is an 18 year old amyrlin who is constantly being watched for signs of weakness, and for her it must be difficult, she loves gawyn, but he questions her authority every time. Also in the last two books she couldnt allow herself to seek support,or even look like she needed it. Might it be that she's afraid that when she turns to him, the aes sedai might take that as a weakness or a sign of breaking down(although thats a long shot after what she shown the last 2 books).

 

Yes in her POV she never blames herself but hey, we have seen a lot of charachters think like that. Its just that i can (partly) see how and why. The whole gawyn situation was in my eyes just Egwene struggling with herself. She doesnt want to look like she needs anyone,yet she also loves gawyn and thus wants to have some distance, while on the other hand when he was gone she thinks to herself that she felt oddly exposed. Simply a case of needing some things straight, not being a **** on purpose.

 

So i am prepared to cut egwene some slack on this situation, but only the situation with gawyn, me too can get quite annoyed and angry when she again presumes to know everything more then Rand. I think its too bad he didnt do the 400 year old rand sedai when in the tower. In this state he can let anyone believe anything.

 

Sorry for my long post, wich doesnt seem to be a reaction to anyone. But after all the egwene hating i kinda wanted to post a different view ;)

[James71]

I'm pretty sure he really has no idea what he is doing. LTT failed to seal the bore without touching the DO directly... RJ said in an interview that if he had of brought women with him, saider would just be tainted as well. It definitely has something to do with Callandor, but he's still not sure... pretty much just flying by the seat of his pants and Egwene knows this.

 

My theory is that Rand will use the True Power to actually "touch" the DO if necessary during the LB. The actual sealing part will be done by Saidin/Saidar linked groups. This helps to avoid the risk of getting tainted again.

[AutomatedTeller]

regarding egwene and gawyn, yes she had some horrible opinions, and was pretty much unreasonable and arrogant much of the time, but one must also see her side. She is an 18 year old amyrlin who is constantly being watched for signs of weakness, and for her it must be difficult, she loves gawyn, but he questions her authority every time. Also in the last two books she couldnt allow herself to seek support,or even look like she needed it. Might it be that she's afraid that when she turns to him, the aes sedai might take that as a weakness or a sign of breaking down(although thats a long shot after what she shown the last 2 books).

 

Yes in her POV she never blames herself but hey, we have seen a lot of charachters think like that. Its just that i can (partly) see how and why. The whole gawyn situation was in my eyes just Egwene struggling with herself. She doesnt want to look like she needs anyone,yet she also loves gawyn and thus wants to have some distance, while on the other hand when he was gone she thinks to herself that she felt oddly exposed. Simply a case of needing some things straight, not being a **** on purpose.

 

So i am prepared to cut egwene some slack on this situation, but only the situation with gawyn, me too can get quite annoyed and angry when she again presumes to know everything more then Rand. I think its too bad he didnt do the 400 year old rand sedai when in the tower. In this state he can let anyone believe anything.

 

Sorry for my long post, wich doesnt seem to be a reaction to anyone. But after all the egwene hating i kinda wanted to post a different view ;)

 

She feels pretty bad after she wakes up and finds Gawyn there.

[randsc]

Not badly enough. The scene where he tries to give her advice about Perrin's intentions comes after that, right? And she's sure pretty dismissive.

 

No one really likes the Sea Folk. But their marriage customs are about perfect for situations where one spouse has much greater public power. And were, in my view, a key part of Nynaeve's maturation.

 

Let me see Egwene agree to something similar, and I'll believe she's learned something.

[James71]

 

Given the way these people think, it'll be the second. Instead of 3-4 distinct groups, it'll Balkanize into 16 groups. The only way it could stand a chance of helping is if every female channeler cross-trained in every discipline, Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai. Two per year won't cut it. Those two will simply be marginalized by all groups.

 

There is certainly enough potential trouble after the LB that BS could write a few more WOT books.

It all depends on whether RJ's wife is willing to allow it.

[CoonDawg]

 

Given the way these people think, it'll be the second. Instead of 3-4 distinct groups, it'll Balkanize into 16 groups. The only way it could stand a chance of helping is if every female channeler cross-trained in every discipline, Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai. Two per year won't cut it. Those two will simply be marginalized by all groups.

 

There is certainly enough potential trouble after the LB that BS could write a few more WOT books.

It all depends on whether RJ's wife is willing to allow it.

 

BS just started his own 10-book 1,000-page-each epic fantasy. On top of writing other short series in-between. Something tells me he isn't going to want to deal with WoT on top of that. Sanderson is a new writer; finishing WoT was the greatest opportunity he ever had to become better known (I never heard of him until he picked up the series, and now I buy everyone book of his I see). I'm sure he wants to do his own thing as soon as possible. Not to mention, I very much doubt RJ's wife will let him continue the series anyway.

[smileyman]

 

BS just started his own 10-book 1,000-page-each epic fantasy. On top of writing other short series in-between. Something tells me he isn't going to want to deal with WoT on top of that. Sanderson is a new writer; finishing WoT was the greatest opportunity he ever had to become better known (I never heard of him until he picked up the series, and now I buy everyone book of his I see). I'm sure he wants to do his own thing as soon as possible. Not to mention, I very much doubt RJ's wife will let him continue the series anyway.

 

Two points:

 

1.) Sanderson isn't a new writer. Elantris was published in 2005, so he's been published for 5 years now (been writing for much longer than that) and has had 10 books published (besides the Wheel of Time).

 

Elantris

Mistborn trilogy

Alcatraz series (YA series currently comprised of 3 books with the 4th due sometime in the next year)

Warbreaker

Way of Kings (first in a planned 10 book series)

 

He just finished writing a short novel that will be published next year sometime.

 

 

2.) Sanderson has explicitly said he has no plans to write any additional WoT novels unless he's asked to do so by Harriet and if he is asked he'll limit it to the ones already mentioned by Robert Jordan which include the 3 outrigger novels and the 2 "prequels". He won't do more than that and only if pushed. He's also said that he's got the feeling that once AMOL and the encyclopedia come out that's it for the Wheel of Time.

[CoonDawg]

 

BS just started his own 10-book 1,000-page-each epic fantasy. On top of writing other short series in-between. Something tells me he isn't going to want to deal with WoT on top of that. Sanderson is a new writer; finishing WoT was the greatest opportunity he ever had to become better known (I never heard of him until he picked up the series, and now I buy everyone book of his I see). I'm sure he wants to do his own thing as soon as possible. Not to mention, I very much doubt RJ's wife will let him continue the series anyway.

 

Two points:

 

1.) Sanderson isn't a new writer. Elantris was published in 2005, so he's been published for 5 years now (been writing for much longer than that) and has had 10 books published (besides the Wheel of Time).

 

Elantris

Mistborn trilogy

Alcatraz series (YA series currently comprised of 3 books with the 4th due sometime in the next year)

Warbreaker

Way of Kings (first in a planned 10 book series)

 

He just finished writing a short novel that will be published next year sometime.

 

 

2.) Sanderson has explicitly said he has no plans to write any additional WoT novels unless he's asked to do so by Harriet and if he is asked he'll limit it to the ones already mentioned by Robert Jordan which include the 3 outrigger novels and the 2 "prequels". He won't do more than that and only if pushed. He's also said that he's got the feeling that once AMOL and the encyclopedia come out that's it for the Wheel of Time.

 

I know; I've read most of them. But he was announced to finish WoT back in 2007. I consider 2 years to be "new" to the business. In fact I'd say 5 years since your debut novel puts you comfortably into the "new guy" territory.

[David Selig]

regarding egwene and gawyn, yes she had some horrible opinions, and was pretty much unreasonable and arrogant much of the time, but one must also see her side. She is an 18 year old amyrlin who is constantly being watched for signs of weakness, and for her it must be difficult, she loves gawyn, but he questions her authority every time. Also in the last two books she couldnt allow herself to seek support,or even look like she needed it. Might it be that she's afraid that when she turns to him, the aes sedai might take that as a weakness or a sign of breaking down(although thats a long shot after what she shown the last 2 books).

 

Yes in her POV she never blames herself but hey, we have seen a lot of charachters think like that. Its just that i can (partly) see how and why. The whole gawyn situation was in my eyes just Egwene struggling with herself. She doesnt want to look like she needs anyone,yet she also loves gawyn and thus wants to have some distance, while on the other hand when he was gone she thinks to herself that she felt oddly exposed. Simply a case of needing some things straight, not being a **** on purpose.

 

So i am prepared to cut egwene some slack on this situation, but only the situation with gawyn, me too can get quite annoyed and angry when she again presumes to know everything more then Rand. I think its too bad he didnt do the 400 year old rand sedai when in the tower. In this state he can let anyone believe anything.

 

Sorry for my long post, wich doesnt seem to be a reaction to anyone. But after all the egwene hating i kinda wanted to post a different view ;)

 

She feels pretty bad after she wakes up and finds Gawyn there.

But Egwene didn't even thank Gawyn for saving her life. I guess that's her usual way, she didn't thank Mat either for saving her in Book 3.

 

At least this time she wasn't mad at the guy who saved her, so there's a bit of an improvement.

[smileyman]

I know; I've read most of them. But he was announced to finish WoT back in 2007. I consider 2 years to be "new" to the business. In fact I'd say 5 years since your debut novel puts you comfortably into the "new guy" territory.

 

You might be right if it was an author who'd written one book of a planned trilogy in five years (I'm looking at you Patrick Rothfuss). 10 published novels does not make you a newcomer on the scene.

[CoonDawg]

I know; I've read most of them. But he was announced to finish WoT back in 2007. I consider 2 years to be "new" to the business. In fact I'd say 5 years since your debut novel puts you comfortably into the "new guy" territory.

 

You might be right if it was an author who'd written one book of a planned trilogy in five years (I'm looking at you Patrick Rothfuss). 10 published novels does not make you a newcomer on the scene.

 

As I said, when it was announced that Sanderson would conclude the series, he had only released 2. It was after the release of the first Mistborn book that RJ's wife caught an interest. Which makes you a newcomer AT THE TIME.

[BlueSun]

I think Egwene's portrayal in this book was mostly a matter of narrative necessity. One of the downsides of reading (or writing, even more so I imagine) a story whose ending is already planned is that you have to have certain events happen to get there. Consider...

 

 

Yeah, I agree. I've really liked her struggle within the White Tower over the last few books. She's a wierd hybrid of Wise One and New-Generation Aes Sedai and I've really liked her internal evolution as a solid human being.....

 

Which is why I deeply despise her unthinking response to Rand's anouncememt: "I'm breaking the Seals." "Well, then I will oppose you. You need guidance from the White Tower." And you know what else: THE FRACKIN' DRAGON REBORN IS IN THE FRACKIN' WHITE TOWER!!! How about apologizing for the way the previous Amrylin treated him? How about asking him why he's gonna break the Seals, or what sort of help he might need to prepare for the Last Battle, or maybe just showing him some basic courtesy? He's your childhood sweetheart, remember? And it would have been wonderful if "Rand Sedai" spoke to the entire Hall about the true meaning of Aes Sedai: It would have fit nicely with Nyneave's comments/experience.... Basically: I was pretty let down with the whole scene....

 

I don't think the Seanchan will attack in the next book: I believe they will be welded to the other nations towards the Last Battle....

 

As a final point, I really really really hope the White Tower is utterly destroyed in a hale of atomic fireballs and then buried under an enormous mound of putrid Trolloc corpses. Really, if that happened, I will not mourn one iota. What a horrible group of snooty, spineless, self-serving, inflexible, cloistered, shallow, self-referential, rigid, myopic, arrogant, meglomaniacal people....

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I will laugh so freaking hard if at the meeting Egwene adresses Rand rudely and Cadsuane comes in and says "His name is Rand Sedai"

[Kaznen]

I'm waiting to see what the political ramifications of Nyn's attitude to the "company line" for the WT is among the AS. I don't think even Cadsuane has such a liberal viewpoint concerning WT importance.

 

And you factor in Nyn is the strongest AS in the OP which automatically makes her the top AS in non official capacity she has to be listened to by the rank and file AS.

 

When you also factor in she is the best AS healer and the deadliest AS fighter, has been the only AS to go toe to toe with one of the forsaken and win, twice (The first time Mo went t2t with a forsaken [Aginor] she lost and the second time [Lanfear] they both lost, she didn't go t2t against Be'lal), she helped fight 3 other forsaken and only lost her first time, not just helped cleanse Saidin but knows what Rand did she'll be able to get a lot of followers.

 

I don't think Eggy and the Hall will be big fans of her come the FoM meet and greet. She is the only AS who thinks the WT is full of sh!t, at this point, and she has the standing to say so to outsiders and the willingness to do so.

[David Selig]

I think Egwene's portrayal in this book was mostly a matter of narrative necessity. One of the downsides of reading (or writing, even more so I imagine) a story whose ending is already planned is that you have to have certain events happen to get there. Consider...

 

Let's make Egwene totally sensible for a second. She realizes that Rand probably has a good idea of what he is doing, or at least that by making it this far he has proven not to be totally incompetent. She gives him the benefit of the doubt, so the massive gathering at the end doesn't happen. All well and good if the story doesn't require that gathering, but if it is a major plot point then the writer is somewhat railroaded by plot to make events happen as they did.

 

Same with Gawyn. Egwene doesn't act like a crazy teenage girl in love, so Gawyn doesn't run off to Camelyn. Not only does he not learn about the bloodknives as a result, but he also never comes to the realizations he had there regarding himself, rand and his place in the world. Again that's fine if Gawyn is meant to be the same Rand-hating idiot, but if the plot requires that growth from him, you have to get there somehow.

 

I think it comes down to the requirements of plot. In some cases (like Bornhald, IMO) it is handled excellently, in others not so much. But I do think it was written as it had to be to get the story where it is meant to go.

Certainly it's partly due to the requirements of the plot, but it's also totally in character for Egwene . She has shown time and time again that she believes she knows better about pretty much everything than any man, including the Dragon Reborn. She believes she needs to control, guide and boss around the men around her for their own good.

 

So for her to assume that Rand is wrong and to put in motion a complicated plan to stop Rand instead of try to reason with him is perfectly in character.

[smileyman]

 

As a final point, I really really really hope the White Tower is utterly destroyed in a hale of atomic fireballs and then buried under an enormous mound of putrid Trolloc corpses. Really, if that happened, I will not mourn one iota. What a horrible group of snooty, spineless, self-serving, inflexible, cloistered, shallow, self-referential, rigid, myopic, arrogant, meglomaniacal people....

 

Don't hold back--tell us how you really feel . . .

 

Not that I disagree with you any. I've hated the White Tower and the Aes Sedai from the beginning of the series.

[GB]

I'm waiting to see what the political ramifications of Nyn's attitude to the "company line" for the WT is among the AS. I don't think even Cadsuane has such a liberal viewpoint concerning WT importance.

 

And you factor in Nyn is the strongest AS in the OP which automatically makes her the top AS in non official capacity she has to be listened to by the rank and file AS.

 

When you also factor in she is the best AS healer and the deadliest AS fighter, has been the only AS to go toe to toe with one of the forsaken and win, twice (The first time Mo went t2t with a forsaken [Aginor] she lost and the second time [Lanfear] they both lost, she didn't go t2t against Be'lal), she helped fight 3 other forsaken and only lost her first time, not just helped cleanse Saidin but knows what Rand did she'll be able to get a lot of followers.

 

I don't think Eggy and the Hall will be big fans of her come the FoM meet and greet. She is the only AS who thinks the WT is full of sh!t, at this point, and she has the standing to say so to outsiders and the willingness to do so.

 

 

it would really suck if Nyn is not at the FoM meet. however i think Nyn will be there for the simple reason, that what better way for Egwene to convince her of the madness of Rand than a debate with Rand, and Egwene is going to throw in all her "logic", and bla bla bla

 

another reason for Nyn to be there, i think is she will stand at the meet and asks for help from the Aes Sedai to help Lan. Rand will send help (ashaman,and soldiers) but the WT need to redeem themselves by failing Malkier before.

[LazyMonk]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

Rand requires Egwene so the pattern allowed Gawyn to have a shit-tonne of luck to make sure she didn't die.

[Sharaman]

I'm waiting to see what the political ramifications of Nyn's attitude to the "company line" for the WT is among the AS. I don't think even Cadsuane has such a liberal viewpoint concerning WT importance.

 

And you factor in Nyn is the strongest AS in the OP which automatically makes her the top AS in non official capacity she has to be listened to by the rank and file AS.

 

When you also factor in she is the best AS healer and the deadliest AS fighter, has been the only AS to go toe to toe with one of the forsaken and win, twice (The first time Mo went t2t with a forsaken [Aginor] she lost and the second time [Lanfear] they both lost, she didn't go t2t against Be'lal), she helped fight 3 other forsaken and only lost her first time, not just helped cleanse Saidin but knows what Rand did she'll be able to get a lot of followers.

 

I don't think Eggy and the Hall will be big fans of her come the FoM meet and greet. She is the only AS who thinks the WT is full of sh!t, at this point, and she has the standing to say so to outsiders and the willingness to do so.

 

 

it would really suck if Nyn is not at the FoM meet. however i think Nyn will be there for the simple reason, that what better way for Egwene to convince her of the madness of Rand than a debate with Rand, and Egwene is going to throw in all her "logic", and bla bla bla

 

another reason for Nyn to be there, i think is she will stand at the meet and asks for help from the Aes Sedai to help Lan. Rand will send help (ashaman,and soldiers) but the WT need to redeem themselves by failing Malkier before.

I'm assuming Lan has already been helped.

There's a 20-day gap in timelines between Rand's journey to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) where he intended to spend a day or so and the Ituralde rescue at Maradon (VoG+25).

There's reason to believe that the attacks into the Borderlands were coordinated. We don't know about Tarwins' Gap but Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea were.

They started around 25 days before Field of Merrilor (VoG+27) - The WT already heard about them by VoG +3.

Rand did nothing about the BT during that period.

There's a throwaway line from Bashere to Ituralde (paraphrased) "We should have got here days ago".

Given Travel, they must have been held up fighting somewhere.

I'm presuming that Rand-Bashere's force of AM, AS and the Dragonsworn Army deployed to Tarwin's Gap.

[smileyman]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

He killed two Warders. What makes you think that this is out of character, especially given the fact that he's one of the top 5 sword fighters in all of Randland?

[Zentari]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

Rand requires Egwene so the pattern allowed Gawyn to have a shit-tonne of luck to make sure she didn't die.

Which could match with what BS said about Gawyn ( that his is luckier than he imagines).

[didymos]

He killed two Warders. What makes you think that this is out of character, especially given the fact that he's one of the top 5 sword fighters in all of Randland?

 

Because Brandon said so:

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

 

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

 

Brandon

 

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

If that luck didn't play a role in the triple Bloodknives duel, then it's pointless to mention it, as that was hands down the most difficult fight Gawyn has ever seen (or, not seen, actually, which sort of proves the point).

[WhiskyJack]

Galad, really?

[WhiskyJack]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

 

All that is Seanchan believe. What would they know about training or skill set of those in Randland. Obviously bloodknives are not as good as Seanchan believe them to be.