The White Tower

[LazyMonk]

He killed two Warders. What makes you think that this is out of character, especially given the fact that he's one of the top 5 sword fighters in all of Randland?

That too is a weak point for me. It is stressed that mastering the sword takes years and years. one can assume that the young brothers had the best teachers money can, but(!) they have zero battle experience until Elaida's coup. Their meteoric rise in the blademasters list seems 'forced' to me.

 

All that is Seanchan believe. What would they know about training or skill set of those in Randland. Obviously bloodknives are not as good as Seanchan believe them to be.

I can accept that because the assassins do behave oddly to say it mildly. the moment they see Gawyn they seem to forget their prime target completely.

Gawyn is described as being pressed within a inch of his life the entire fight. I find it hard to believe that two of the attackers could not have pressed him hard enough for the third to finish off Egwene.

[Charlz Guybon]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

He killed the blademaster sword instructor way back during the Tower coup, his aptitude with the sword isn't anything new.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm assuming Lan has already been helped.

There's a 20-day gap in timelines between Rand's journey to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) where he intended to spend a day or so and the Ituralde rescue at Maradon (VoG+25).

There's reason to believe that the attacks into the Borderlands were coordinated. We don't know about Tarwins' Gap but Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea were.

They started around 25 days before Field of Merrilor (VoG+27) - The WT already heard about them by VoG +3.

Rand did nothing about the BT during that period.

There's a throwaway line from Bashere to Ituralde (paraphrased) "We should have got here days ago".

Given Travel, they must have been held up fighting somewhere.

I'm presuming that Rand-Bashere's force of AM, AS and the Dragonsworn Army deployed to Tarwin's Gap.

Wait a minute, how do we know there's a twenty gap between the visit to Bandar Eban and his rescue of Ituralde?

[Sharaman]

I'm assuming Lan has already been helped.

There's a 20-day gap in timelines between Rand's journey to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) where he intended to spend a day or so and the Ituralde rescue at Maradon (VoG+25).

There's reason to believe that the attacks into the Borderlands were coordinated. We don't know about Tarwins' Gap but Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea were.

They started around 25 days before Field of Merrilor (VoG+27) - The WT already heard about them by VoG +3.

Rand did nothing about the BT during that period.

There's a throwaway line from Bashere to Ituralde (paraphrased) "We should have got here days ago".

Given Travel, they must have been held up fighting somewhere.

I'm presuming that Rand-Bashere's force of AM, AS and the Dragonsworn Army deployed to Tarwin's Gap.

Wait a minute, how do we know there's a twenty gap between the visit to Bandar Eban and his rescue of Ituralde?

Edit: Many textual references - I'm giving some

 

Tear is VoG+2/3 (he's been away three days - VoG was the second of those.)

Bandar Eban is VoG+4.

Rand gathers forces the day he returns to Tear and says he'll leave the next day for BE.

(Independent confirmation also from Nyn's timeline)

Then Ituralde returns from Maradon with Rand, who spends one day there, and says "We'll visit the Borderlanders tomorrow" when he's back in the Stone.

He then presents Alsalam to Ituralde (also fits because he'd sent Cadsuane off on VoG+2/3 to hunt for her.)

He meets the Borderlanders and says "We'll head to Field of Merrilor tomorrow".

(Independent - Perrin sees him talking)

Then he's in FoM

(further confirmation he tells the Borderlanders "I didn't have the memories".

Clear timelines.

Big Gap between Bandar Eban and Maradon.

[Duskfire]

That too is a weak point for me. It is stressed that mastering the sword takes years and years. one can assume that the young brothers had the best teachers money can, but(!) they have zero battle experience until Elaida's coup. Their meteoric rise in the blademasters list seems 'forced' to me.

 

It is unrealistically fast, but Rand is the same. He is basically a blademaster (or was, before losing his hand) and he would have had less experience then Galad and Gawyn. Aram even more so; he wouldnt have been blademaster material, but when someone like Tam comments that he is very good, then you can take his word on it. And he would have held the sword for... a couple of months?

 

And then you have characters like Uno who have been fighting for decades and apparently they would their ass handed to them by Galad or Gawyn.

 

Rhuarc would kick all their asses anyway :P

[dwn]

That too is a weak point for me. It is stressed that mastering the sword takes years and years. one can assume that the young brothers had the best teachers money can, but(!) they have zero battle experience until Elaida's coup. Their meteoric rise in the blademasters list seems 'forced' to me.

 

It is unrealistically fast, but Rand is the same. He is basically a blademaster (or was, before losing his hand) and he would have had less experience then Galad and Gawyn. Aram even more so; he wouldnt have been blademaster material, but when someone like Tam comments that he is very good, then you can take his word on it. And he would have held the sword for... a couple of months?

 

And then you have characters like Uno who have been fighting for decades and apparently they would their ass handed to them by Galad or Gawyn.

 

Rhuarc would kick all their asses anyway :P

 

At any given time the very best swordsmen are likely to be in their mid 20s to early 30s. Enough time to have reached their adult strength and a few years of practice, yet not old enough to start slowing down. Look at when modern athletes and soldiers are in their prime.

 

-- dwn

[Elan Tedronai]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

 

As annoying Gawyn is, the moron is quite handy with the sword. He killed 2 blademasters Hammar and coulin in the white tower coup. And if you see his training with sleete in the gathering storm you would know he's very skilled with a blade. I reckon he's better than Galad as well.

 

Still a mega douchebag

[didymos]

Galad, really?

 

That's a surprise? He's always been said to be ridiculously good with the sword.

[Strykr017]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

 

That's just how it is with this series. Does it make a whole lot of sense for Egwene to be as successful as she has been? She grew up as an innkeeper's daughter, yet she is routinely several steps ahead of people who have been involved in politics for (literally) hundreds of years longer than she has been alive. She has two years of experience, yet she seems to be the greatest political mastermind that the White Tower has ever known. How? She just is.

[smileyman]

He killed two Warders. What makes you think that this is out of character, especially given the fact that he's one of the top 5 sword fighters in all of Randland?

 

Because Brandon said so:

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

 

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

 

Brandon

 

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

If that luck didn't play a role in the triple Bloodknives duel, then it's pointless to mention it, as that was hands down the most difficult fight Gawyn has ever seen (or, not seen, actually, which sort of proves the point).

 

Yes, I'm aware of the quote--that still makes Gawyn the third best swordsman in Randland, which is no small feat. It's not at all unrealistic that the 3rd best swordsman can hold off three Bloodkillers who use mostly knives. It's not like he defeated them handily either--he barely survived and only managed to live because Egwene bonded him.

 

Yeah he was lucky, but he's also very, very good.

[smileyman]

That too is a weak point for me. It is stressed that mastering the sword takes years and years. one can assume that the young brothers had the best teachers money can, but(!) they have zero battle experience until Elaida's coup. Their meteoric rise in the blademasters list seems 'forced' to me.

 

It is unrealistically fast, but Rand is the same. He is basically a blademaster (or was, before losing his hand) and he would have had less experience then Galad and Gawyn. Aram even more so; he wouldnt have been blademaster material, but when someone like Tam comments that he is very good, then you can take his word on it. And he would have held the sword for... a couple of months?

 

And then you have characters like Uno who have been fighting for decades and apparently they would their ass handed to them by Galad or Gawyn.

 

Rhuarc would kick all their asses anyway :P

 

Well there's a couple of things going on here. Gawyn and Galad have both been trained to handle the sword from their cradle. They were sent to the White Tower to receive advanced training--thinking of it as going to graduate school. So it's not like they've never picked up a sword before, they were both very, very good before being trained by the Warders.

 

Since then both of them have been using the sword nearly daily in defense of their lives. That hones and sharpens those skills dramatically, probably more so than Rand who trains, but isn't fighting for his life with the sword.

 

Aram became very good, but he wasn't near blademaster level. Above average yes, but not super skilled. That's realistic too, because he was driven to do so by a huge desire and he was also fighting for his life daily.

 

Innate skill also has a great deal to do with this. Some people can practice and practice at something, becoming competent at it but never great. Some people sit down and bam, they're experts almost immediately due to inborn talent.

 

The most unrealistic blademaster in the series is Rand. Both Gawyn and Galad have had years and years of training. Rand became blademaster level in a few months.

[waffle]

The most unrealistic blademaster in the series is Rand. Both Gawyn and Galad have had years and years of training. Rand became blademaster level in a few months.

 

Well he is LTT reborn.

[WhiskyJack]

Galad, really?

 

That's a surprise? He's always been said to be ridiculously good with the sword.

 

 

Good enough to be ranked number two? Is he actually better than Rand? I doubt it.

 

Some people are simply born superior (as a fighet;)).

 

People here are so focused on sword that they simply ignore the fact Rand, Mat and Perrin are excellent archers, Rand may be at same level as Birgitte herself. Then they can fight with knifes, hammers, quarterstaff...Most of these blademasters are rather useless without a sword.

[TheAngryDruid]

I'm assuming Lan has already been helped.

There's a 20-day gap in timelines between Rand's journey to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) where he intended to spend a day or so and the Ituralde rescue at Maradon (VoG+25).

There's reason to believe that the attacks into the Borderlands were coordinated. We don't know about Tarwins' Gap but Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea were.

They started around 25 days before Field of Merrilor (VoG+27) - The WT already heard about them by VoG +3.

Rand did nothing about the BT during that period.

There's a throwaway line from Bashere to Ituralde (paraphrased) "We should have got here days ago".

Given Travel, they must have been held up fighting somewhere.

I'm presuming that Rand-Bashere's force of AM, AS and the Dragonsworn Army deployed to Tarwin's Gap.

Wait a minute, how do we know there's a twenty gap between the visit to Bandar Eban and his rescue of Ituralde?

Edit: Many textual references - I'm giving some

 

Tear is VoG+2/3 (he's been away three days - VoG was the second of those.)

Bandar Eban is VoG+4.

Rand gathers forces the day he returns to Tear and says he'll leave the next day for BE.

(Independent confirmation also from Nyn's timeline)

Then Ituralde returns from Maradon with Rand, who spends one day there, and says "We'll visit the Borderlanders tomorrow" when he's back in the Stone.

He then presents Alsalam to Ituralde (also fits because he'd sent Cadsuane off on VoG+2/3 to hunt for her.)

He meets the Borderlanders and says "We'll head to Field of Merrilor tomorrow".

(Independent - Perrin sees him talking)

Then he's in FoM

(further confirmation he tells the Borderlanders "I didn't have the memories".

Clear timelines.

Big Gap between Bandar Eban and Maradon.

 

While this is a good summary, I don't think we can say for certain that Bandar Eban is the day after the return to Tear, only that it happened after Tear and before Maradon. If you have a textual confirmation, I'd love to see it (beyond Rand saying that was where he was going next when he got to Tear).

 

As for Gawyn, I think BS' implication is that he can channel somehow, and like Bela running very fast, he is unknowingly using that ability to help him in critical situations. His "natural" talent, while very good, isn't that good.

[Cyf]

Good enough to be ranked number two? Is he actually better than Rand? I doubt it.

 

The question asked who is the best among those three, so Brandon ranked them.

 

There may be others more skilled than Galad. Remember, for instance, that he only beat the old LCC by dint of using his noggin and tiring him out. :)

 

As for Gawyn, he beat a Blademaster already. He's pretty darn skilled. Bloodknives are skilled swordsmen, but not necessarily Blademaster level. Their scariness is from the ter'angreal. Gawyn was getting owned, barely surviving in a pure defensive lineup, till he turned out the lights so they couldn't see him either. Then skill won out.

[WhiteJoker]

Galad, really?

 

That's a surprise? He's always been said to be ridiculously good with the sword.

 

 

Good enough to be ranked number two? Is he actually better than Rand? I doubt it.

 

Some people are simply born superior (as a fighet;)).

 

People here so focused on sword that they simply ignore the fact Rand, Mat and Perrin are excellent archers, Rand may be at same level as Birgitte herself. Then they can fight with knifes, hammers, quarterstaff...Most of these blademasters are rather useless without a sword.

Since that ranking came out after Rand lost his hand, I think it's a current listing. Rand with his hand would probably be in there but Rand without isn't a very good swordsman... and hasn't really put much effort into figuring out how to fight with a sword since.

 

I think the thing to keep in mind is that we've only seen Galad fight twice lately. Once was against Valda and that was against a blademaster while struggling to control his anger (you'd be pissed the hell off too if you were fighting the guy who raped and supposedly murdered your mother) and that's never conductive for focus. The second time he was on a horse (limiting his fighting ability) while struggling to marshal his army's faltering lines in his first encounter with Trollocs while in a position of tactical weakness while at the same time worrying that perhaps he'd be attacked from behind.

 

Also keep in mind that most of Rand's crazy blademaster moments happened when he was wielding his flaming saidin sword which can apparently cut through anything as opposed to a normal blade which would get stuck on bone, nevermind whatever shoddy armor the Trollocs have scavenged.

 

Edit: That said, I still don't personally think Galad's the second best blademaster in Randland. He's too... inconsistent.

[dwn]

I think the thing to keep in mind is that we've only seen Galad fight twice lately. Once was against Valda and that was against a blademaster while struggling to control his anger (you'd be pissed the hell off too if you were fighting the guy who raped and supposedly murdered your mother) and that's never conductive for focus. The second time he was on a horse (limiting his fighting ability) while struggling to marshal his army's faltering lines in his first encounter with Trollocs while in a position of tactical weakness while at the same time worrying that perhaps he'd be attacked from behind.

 

Also keep in mind that most of Rand's crazy blademaster moments happened when he was wielding his flaming saidin sword which can apparently cut through anything as opposed to a normal blade which would get stuck on bone, nevermind whatever shoddy armor the Trollocs have scavenged.

 

Edit: That said, I still don't personally think Galad's the second best blademaster in Randland. He's too... inconsistent.

 

Given Galad's ties to Galahad, I'd say his swordfighting abilities are linked to his faith (in a literary way, not some kind of a bizarre Talent). Galad is inconsistent in ToM because he's going through a moral crisis.

 

-- dwn

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Edit: Many textual references - I'm giving some

 

Tear is VoG+2/3 (he's been away three days - VoG was the second of those.)

Bandar Eban is VoG+4.

Rand gathers forces the day he returns to Tear and says he'll leave the next day for BE.

(Independent confirmation also from Nyn's timeline)

Then Ituralde returns from Maradon with Rand, who spends one day there, and says "We'll visit the Borderlanders tomorrow" when he's back in the Stone.

He then presents Alsalam to Ituralde (also fits because he'd sent Cadsuane off on VoG+2/3 to hunt for her.)

He meets the Borderlanders and says "We'll head to Field of Merrilor tomorrow".

(Independent - Perrin sees him talking)

Then he's in FoM

(further confirmation he tells the Borderlanders "I didn't have the memories".

Clear timelines.

Big Gap between Bandar Eban and Maradon.

Hmm...puzzling. Doesn't Ituralde remark that the soldiers Rand brought with him looked clean well rested? Doesn't seem like they were doing much fighting in that time.

[didymos]

Galad, really?

 

That's a surprise? He's always been said to be ridiculously good with the sword.

 

 

Good enough to be ranked number two? Is he actually better than Rand? I doubt it.

 

The question asked of Brandon was what is the ranking right now. We already know from RJ that, with both hands, Rand came in after Lan. But Rand doesn't have two hands right now.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Galad, really?

 

That's a surprise? He's always been said to be ridiculously good with the sword.

 

 

Good enough to be ranked number two? Is he actually better than Rand? I doubt it.

 

The question asked of Brandon was what is the ranking right now. We already know from RJ that with both hands, Rand came in after Lan. But Rand doesn't have two hands right now.

 

It also hasn't been proven how far his skill is degraded by losing his hand. and the questioner only mentioned those 3 blade masters, not any of the others so Rand could still be behind Lan.

[seasnake]

Gawyn's skill with dueling is the only thing about him that does make sense. He as a noble, and "First Prince of the Sword," so he would have been training a lot from his youth. Bryne said Gawyn was a natural talent as well. Then at the WT all he's done is mope and duel. While the Wondergirls were gone having adventures he just dueled in all of his free time. It's no wonder he's excellent.

[didymos]

It also hasn't been proven how far his skill is degraded by losing his hand. and the questioner only mentioned those 3 blade masters, not any of the others so Rand could still be behind Lan.

 

A lot, simply because so many of the sword-forms are two-handed ones. He's surely still excellent with the one-handed ones, but he's completely incapable of the others.

[WhiskyJack]

Well he has not pulled out sword once since he lost his hand so that says something, isn't it..And it's not just sword...knife fighting, archery..and even martial art (Aiel style) requires two hands...For all event and purpose channeling is his only weapon now.

[Sharaman]

It also hasn't been proven how far his skill is degraded by losing his hand. and the questioner only mentioned those 3 blade masters, not any of the others so Rand could still be behind Lan.

 

A lot, simply because so many of the sword-forms are two-handed ones. He's surely still excellent with the one-handed ones, but he's completely incapable of the others.

What if he channels himself a prosthetic hand of air?

:0

[BlueSun]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by Gawyn's mysteriously awesome sword skill?

Winning single-handedly against THREE, superhuman, mostly invisible, highly trained (the highest possible according to some) assassins, In extreme close quarters, AND defending the sleeping beauty at the same time?!?

The ridiculousness of this encounter has ruined a big chunk of the book's experience for me.

He killed the blademaster sword instructor way back during the Tower coup, his aptitude with the sword isn't anything new.

 

@LazyMonk: Totally agree! Facing and surviving 3 of the best assassins in the world, in close quarter? Yeah, that challenged my believability, too. My impression of him is NOT that he's a super-swordsman, but rather a spoiled prince who is mired in doubt about his role in the world, who has no responsibilities or solid alliegance....

 

And it's not that his aptitude with the sword is something new or not: it's just up until now, we haven't really been shown that he's a badass.... His whining and the angst have colored my impression of him, is all....

 

If it was Lan faced those Bloodknives, there is no doubt whatsoever that he would emerge triumphant.