Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[WhiskyJack]

You guys ever notice that we are discussing this after the fact. We know that if Saidar would have been used that it would have been tainted as well but we already know this. From the characters perspective they did not. Latra ended up making the right choice but we view it as such after the fact. She had absolutely no way of knowing .. none of them did .. about the DO's ability to taint either side of the source because they had no record of something like that ever happening. With the way that the WoT works, it may have had to pan out this way in order for them to do things right this time. God I can't wait for tomorrow.

 

Yup. Much the way some folks here are saying Egwene is stupid for not following Rand because we as readers know Rand is right. But Egwene or anybody else has no reason to believe Rand is right or even sane. Remember they know Rand was affected taint. They haven't even confirmed for sure taint IS clean. For all Egwene knows this is taint-induced madness. Hardly surprising she's not eager to just go "hallelujah let's do it" without even given any sort of plan as offer...

 

 

There cannot be a "clean" taint;)

[Second Chance]

I'm glad we're going to see another Rand/Egwene confrontation of sorts. If that passage was, as the shapter title implies, Rand knowing the Amyrlin's anger... well she musn't be a particularly angry person. Unless the prophecy meant that he would understand that Egwene was angry with him, which he does seem to recognise at the end of Apples First.

[HareSpectacles]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

 

1) Nope. I would like to see ONE quote that points out to that fact. NO one, not ONE person came up with that objection. Only we, after that outcome of attack on SG have the luxury to say that. So plz, stick to the fact. There were many objections but taint was not mentioned at all.

 

2) Latra P, after the loss of access key still opposed LTT's plan? On what ground? What she think was going to happen? What do you think she was hoping for?

 

3)Eqwene is not capable of judging the merit of a plan against DO. Imagine Rand telling her how is going to use callandor and two women to create fancy new seals and she be like what! Atleast women during LTT's time knew what they were talking about.

 

4) It's larger yes, but by how much? And DO is already touching the world. What more he would do if seals were broken. Now I admit that if rest of the seals are broken and bore was left like that, may be DO can break free in 10 or 10000 years but not in 10 seconds and I am sure forces of light don't have that much time. Probably all the action will happen in less than a year (or even sooner).

 

 

I rarely post here but often lurk....I watched the Q&A with Brandon Sanderson last night while he was at the midnight signing and he unequivocally stated that the Bore was no larger than when initially...erm....Bored as it were.

[Majsju]

I found it interesting that while Rands ta'veren-push stopped everyone from even speaking a single word, Egwene did not even to feel even a nudge. Seems like the Wheel wants her to oppose Rand.

[slacker123]

you guys do know in one of LTT's pov's he mentioned why he felt the women aes sedai didn't support him, and why he thought that turned out to be a good decision....i'm not gonna go digging around my books to find it cuz it's bedtime, maybe somebody else can do that

 

then again, i could be totally off, cuz it is WAY too late to be up

[slacker123]

I found it interesting that while Rands ta'veren-push stopped everyone from even speaking a single word, Egwene did not even to feel even a nudge. Seems like the Wheel wants her to oppose Rand.

 

or that the wheel wants her to bring the armies for rand

cuz you know if all the other aes sedai could talk, theyd just squabble about how outrageous his plan was and nothing would get done

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is clear that the seals need to be broken in order for the Light to win properly. Prophecies and Fel's work make it certain, there is no doubt that Rand is doing the right thing.

 

Egwene, however, is doing the best that she can. Still, i think she is a fool. tGS really made her awesome, but ToM put her down again. True enough, she should not support Rand's plan just because he said so. But really, trying to mess with his plans and bring the nations against him is idiocy. She just assumes Rand is wrong. She does not know the first thing about the DO or the seal, or how the LB will be won. She has no plan of her own, yet she still thinks she has to control Rand.

 

The LB is literally days away. Even if Egwene DOES get to 'control" Rand, what would she do? While certainly breaking the seals seems like an outrageous plan, and she isnt wrong to be wary and even against it. She spends her time trying to control Rand and the world's leaders, disrupting his plan. IMO, she should be focusing on comming up with an ALTERNATE plan. As things are now, this is how i see the conversation going.

 

"Rand, you cant break the seals, I wont let you."

 

"Egwene, I have to 'clear the rubble' to rebuild. I remember how I did it in the AoL, and i think I can rectify the mistakes by using both Saidin and saidar. The seals are breaking anyway, it doesnt matter if i dont break them, they will eventually."

 

"No, you cant break the seals."

 

"What do I do then?"

 

"not break the seals...."

 

Its just stupid of her. she needs to get kicked in the face, seriously. I thought after tGS she would have been more sensible, but she is terrible now.

 

Look at her reaction to the murderers in the WT. She was soooo certain that it was Mesaana, and wouldnt even listen to Gawyn, she just drove him away.

 

Then look what happened. Bloodknives nearly knifed her to pieces, and Gawyn nearly died. Mesaana WAS defeated, but she was still wrong.

 

I had hopes for Egwene, but she really is terrible.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Well, why would you want to hasten the breaking of the seals? The seals will be broken anyway by the Dark One. Would it not be better to attain more time to gather the forces of the Light together over a longer period of time and consolidate those forces? Instead, Rand goes and hastens the inevitable meeting between him and the Dark One without giving the others ample time to prepare. Yes we know that the seals won't hold out much longer, but every moment is crucial, is it not?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, why would you want to hasten the breaking of the seals? The seals will be broken anyway by the Dark One. Would it not be better to attain more time to gather the forces of the Light together over a longer period of time and consolidate those forces? Instead, Rand goes and hastens the inevitable meeting between him and the Dark One without giving the others ample time to prepare. Yes we know that the seals won't hold out much longer, but every moment is crucial, is it not?

 

really... you have to see that the AS way is foolish...

 

besides, you dont adress the bulk of the post.

 

Egwene is doing NOTHING to plan. She is just disrupting others. As i said, if you read properly, there is no problem with her not liking Rand's plan. But she has no idea what she is talking about, and has no alternate plan, nor is she comming up with one. All she has done is try to turn every nation against Rand.

 

Its hardly constructive. There is no more time. The LB is here, the borderlands have fallen and caemlyn is burning. There is no time to be had. Egwene has done nothing to help the situation, only to disrupt other plans.

[BillLongpre]

hey love the series as wnole....but anyone notice that Perrin when he was told of Rand's plan for bore was pretty much unfazed by it and said yes he could see why it needs to be broken completely,to be resealed properly... i think he will have huge role to play when they have that meeting which Egwene isgonna try to oppose him...

[Barid Bel Medar]

hey love the series as wnole....but anyone notice that Perrin when he was told of Rand's plan for bore was pretty much unfazed by it and said yes he could see why it needs to be broken completely,to be resealed properly... i think he will have huge role to play when they have that meeting which Egwene isgonna try to oppose him...

 

I am thinking that this is due to his Taveren link. Perrin trusts Mat and Rand more than anyone (Faile not included). Something about the link binds them together. Hard to explain, but I think that the 3 know what has to happen, and trust the instincts.

[WhiskyJack]

Well, why would you want to hasten the breaking of the seals? The seals will be broken anyway by the Dark One. Would it not be better to attain more time to gather the forces of the Light together over a longer period of time and consolidate those forces? Instead, Rand goes and hastens the inevitable meeting between him and the Dark One without giving the others ample time to prepare. Yes we know that the seals won't hold out much longer, but every moment is crucial, is it not?

 

 

Well there is this idea that to reseal the Bore, old seals need to you know...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, why would you want to hasten the breaking of the seals? The seals will be broken anyway by the Dark One. Would it not be better to attain more time to gather the forces of the Light together over a longer period of time and consolidate those forces? Instead, Rand goes and hastens the inevitable meeting between him and the Dark One without giving the others ample time to prepare. Yes we know that the seals won't hold out much longer, but every moment is crucial, is it not?

 

No. That's the wrong approach for a couple of reasons.

 

First, waiting favors the Dark more than the Light. Reality is falling apart. More and more people are going to die to bubbles of evil and starvation, pestilence and rot. The longer the build up, the more forces the Dark will have and the fewer the Light will have.

 

Secondly, that allows the Dark to control the timing of everything. The Light becomes strictly defensive, and the problem with letting the other side have the initiative is you don't know either where or when they will attack, so you have to be strong everywhere. Nobody can be strong everywhere, and trying to be simply means that you spread yourself too thin and end up weak everywhere.

 

The Light needs to concentrate its forces and go on the attack.

[Fel]

Egwene is doing NOTHING to plan. She is just disrupting others. As i said, if you read properly, there is no problem with her not liking Rand's plan. But she has no idea what she is talking about, and has no alternate plan, nor is she comming up with one. All she has done is try to turn every nation against Rand.

 

I find it hard to believe that the WT has been around for 3000 years and for that entire time they have had this prophecy that the seals were going to fail and that NO ONE has come up with viable plans to do something about it during that time? There is an entire ajah dedicated to logic and problem solving - you would think that some of them might occasionally cover this topic in their senior thesis.

 

After the meeting with Rand, I was hoping that Egwene was going to have people go through the dusty library corners to pull out all the old theories on beating the Dark One and show up to the meeting with an alternative plan or at least good suggestions and information culled from the past 3000 years. Bring something to the table that improves the chances of Rand's mad plan succeeding so he does not have to rely on someone who just started reading philosophy about 9 months ago (Min).

 

Instead, she goes back to political gamesmanship.

 

I had such hope for her after TGS that she was going to be able to focus on the world and not herself, but apparently that hope was misplaced.

[Chaotic222]

Look at her reaction to the murderers in the WT. She was soooo certain that it was Mesaana, and wouldnt even listen to Gawyn, she just drove him away.

 

Then look what happened. Bloodknives nearly knifed her to pieces, and Gawyn nearly died. Mesaana WAS defeated, but she was still wrong.

 

I had hopes for Egwene, but she really is terrible.

 

I actually liked that the very traits that lead to Egwene's victories in tGS turned into character flaws in ToM. She's not perfect and she still makes mistakes, which IMO makes her a better character. And her mistakes weren't as frustratingly stupid as Elayne's.

[slacker123]

Well, why would you want to hasten the breaking of the seals? The seals will be broken anyway by the Dark One. Would it not be better to attain more time to gather the forces of the Light together over a longer period of time and consolidate those forces? Instead, Rand goes and hastens the inevitable meeting between him and the Dark One without giving the others ample time to prepare. Yes we know that the seals won't hold out much longer, but every moment is crucial, is it not?

 

i thought it was pretty clear from rand when he said he didn't want to meet the DO on his terms.

he said that if they kept fighting bubbles of evils and trying to save everything (something to that degree) they'd be too spread out and weakened by the time the DO comes out. so while they are still in relatively good shape, he wants to fight the DO

[slacker123]

 

I find it hard to believe that the WT has been around for 3000 years and for that entire time they have had this prophecy that the seals were going to fail and that NO ONE has come up with viable plans to do something about it during that time? There is an entire ajah dedicated to logic and problem solving - you would think that some of them might occasionally cover this topic in their senior thesis.

 

After the meeting with Rand, I was hoping that Egwene was going to have people go through the dusty library corners to pull out all the old theories on beating the Dark One and show up to the meeting with an alternative plan or at least good suggestions and information culled from the past 3000 years. Bring something to the table that improves the chances of Rand's mad plan succeeding so he does not have to rely on someone who just started reading philosophy about 9 months ago (Min).

 

Instead, she goes back to political gamesmanship.

 

I had such hope for her after TGS that she was going to be able to focus on the world and not herself, but apparently that hope was misplaced.

 

maybe over that 3000 years anyone who got even close to figuring out anything about the seals got killed....like fel...

plus, the AS are just lame, they think something means something and just take it at face value(referring to prophecies here). once they believe something, they just stick with it no matter how flawed it may be.

but the few people who think there's more to it, haven't been able to solve it (ie callandor prophecy/use, and you saw how min got treated for bringing up something new)

[guyminuslife]

hey love the series as wnole....but anyone notice that Perrin when he was told of Rand's plan for bore was pretty much unfazed by it and said yes he could see why it needs to be broken completely,to be resealed properly... i think he will have huge role to play when they have that meeting which Egwene isgonna try to oppose him...

 

I am thinking that this is due to his Taveren link. Perrin trusts Mat and Rand more than anyone (Faile not included). Something about the link binds them together. Hard to explain, but I think that the 3 know what has to happen, and trust the instincts.

 

Or maybe his experience as a blacksmith.

[masty]

Rand is the champion of light if he thinks that every one should blindly follow him without any questions asked when he himself doesn't know what needs to be done then he is wrong. People who are commenting saying that Egwene is stupid and others who want to punch her face don't seem to understand things.

 

Rand instinctively feels that Seals are to be broken, Fel also had similar ideas but if he puts forth the idea some one has to oppose it so that at least there is a plan in place after the event occurs. Rand doesn't have all the answers if he had min wouldn't be researching on how to win the war.

 

The way Aviendha saw the future is almost as bleak as the shadow winning. The people who win after the war practice slavery and have people being chained like animals is that victory? There are a lot of things to be done and rand should trust people to help him, not follow him blindly.

 

The taverness didn't affect Egwene which means that she is important in the pattern and the pattern wishes her to do so. I was terribly disappointed when Rand started turning demi god towards the start of the ToM. You cannot fix all problems by turning you character to a demi god who can change everything with the flick of a hand.

 

Rand has to disclose his plans and explain what he is going to do to people close to him otherwise aviendha's visions in the ter'angreal would be the fate of mankind in the wheel of time world.

[tulsiz]

Am I the only one who thought it was strange that Rand would announce his big secret plan to break the seals in front of the whole bloody Hall?

[The Dirty Landry]

I found it interesting that while Rands ta'veren-push stopped everyone from even speaking a single word, Egwene did not even to feel even a nudge. Seems like the Wheel wants her to oppose Rand.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is EXACTLY what Rand wanted to happen. He didn't want to argue and wrangle with the Aes Sedai, which he knew is what would happen. I could be wrong, but it might be that Rand wasn't trying to "taveren" her. The straight up impression I got, was that Rand was just manipulating her. It worked pretty well, I might add. This meeting between all of the Light is where he'll lay down the Dragon's Peace.

 

As to whether he is right or wrong....I don't think that's a simple question. I think he is right to break the seals, but that there is other stuff he is missing. He doesn't have all the pieces yet, obviously.

[Sharaman]

Am I the only one who thought it was strange that Rand would announce his big secret plan to break the seals in front of the whole bloody Hall?

No, I assume he's staking out a goat.

[Jon Paul]

I was disappointed that Nyn' didn't mention to Egwene that Rand is perfectly sane again.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Awesome posts by BBM and Fel.

 

 

Not sure this scene really lived up to the hype of Elaida's foretelling. Not that it was poorly-done or anything, just not anywhere near the scale of anger I was expecting. Maybe the chapter title was a red herring and we really see the anger in the next book after the Seanchan attack.

 

 

I don't see a thread devoted solely to Rand's arc, so should we use this one instead? I wasn't a big fan of him blasting the Trolloc army outside Maradon. Sure, awesome power, wrath-of-an-angry-God type stuff, but was just too over-the-top for my taste, and made Ituralde's sacrifice seem worthless. I know they tried to tone it down with him being so tired later, but Rand alone chopping up tens of thousands of Trollocs like that--without Callandor, an angreal, a circle, nothing--just pushed his power too far, IMO.

[The Dirty Landry]

Awesome posts by BBM and Fel.

 

 

Not sure this scene really lived up to the hype of Elaida's foretelling. Not that it was poorly-done or anything, just not anywhere near the scale of anger I was expecting. Maybe the chapter title was a red herring and we really see the anger in the next book after the Seanchan attack.

 

 

I don't see a thread devoted solely to Rand's arc, so should we use this one instead? I wasn't a big fan of him blasting the Trolloc army outside Maradon. Sure, awesome power, wrath-of-an-angry-God type stuff, but was just too over-the-top for my taste, and made Ituralde's sacrifice seem worthless. I know they tried to tone it down with him being so tired later, but Rand alone chopping up tens of thousands of Trollocs like that--without Callandor, an angreal, a circle, nothing--just pushed his power too far, IMO.

Yet in the end, all his ridiculous power isn't going to help him defeat the DO. If that was the case, he would have just kept the CK. I had no problem with the scene. He's done the same against Trollocs before. The only thing that matters though, is that the LB will not be a cakewalk for him. If it was going to be easy, I think you'd have a good complaint.