Discuss The Full Book

[Jagen Sedai]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

On the other hand, I think Rand is also being way too hasty. They need to plan, not just go up there and see what happens!

 

I agree with others who stated in another thread that it seems Egwene is letting all her AS sit around doing nothing, as usual, while the rest of the world is preparing for the Last Battle. I'm very shocked we got no inkling whatsoever about what the Aes Sedai ARE doing.

 

In short, I love Nynaeve's chapters, Mat's (Moiraine!!), Fortuona's, and Avi's. They were so fantastic.

 

But I have to admit I was rather disappointed with all the Perrin and Elayne PoVs. Yea, that stuff had to happen, but it was kind of a pain to read. I kept thinking "Another Perrin chapter? Come on already!" and the same with Elayne, too. I wish Birgitte had never inspected that throne, so Elayne could have got her bottom poked and died. Everyone keeps saying 'she's such a good queen' or this or that. I don't see it. The only one I understood and agreed with was Birgitte, who was basically telling Elayne she needs to stop being so risky.

 

As for Perrin... I hate that Hopper died :( He was the only one I really liked from anyone connected with Perrin (besides the Aiel).

 

I wish their had been a lot more other PoVs or a more even share. Just way too much Perrin and Elayne... Did find it awesome though that Boundless was Noam.

 

And, so glad and giddy Thom and Moiraine are engaged. Woo hoo!

[Mr. Micawber]

Uh, so, there's a big difference between Rand and Egwene, and LTT and LP.

 

LTT and LP were busy running a flaming war. And not just any war, we're talking a war that would have given an Autumn 1983 ABLE ARCHER-induced throwdown in the Fulda Gap between NATO and the Warsaw Pact a run for its money. Meanwhile, they were trying to figure out how to solve the equivalent of the Manhattan Project *plus* the greatest metaphysical question ever, all at the *same time*

 

So, it's understandable if *both of them* couldn't devote their undivided attention to the matter.

 

The difference is that Rand's had arguably the smartest guy on the freaking planet - Herid Fel - tackling this problem. And since Fel's death, that job has been taken on by not only Rand's principal girlfriend, but a dedicated research section assembled and led by one of the most brilliant AS in the Third Age. He also has access to LTT's entire life and thus understands, if not what to do, then what he did *wrong* the last time.

 

It's not that Min agrees with Rand, it's that flaming *Cadsuane* agrees with Rand.

 

Egwene by contrast has given the matter exactly no thought.

[metaphor]

Where is Elenia's army? Where did it disappear to? Did it fall in Demandred's hands'

[JohnnyBeGood]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

The reason why Egwene is opposing Rand is because she has dreamed that it would happen and that rand would screw it up. Considering the fact that to her Rand seems quite mad, she has reason to fear what he plans.

[decrepid dragon]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

The reason why Egwene is opposing Rand is because she has dreamed that it would happen and that rand would screw it up. Considering the fact that to her Rand seems quite mad, she has reason to fear what he plans.

No, she dreamed that it would happen, not that he would screw it up. There was a sense of forboding about this dream, but no clear meaning until she just decided what it would mean, no instinctual knowledge, until she realised what it meant and she just assumed things were going to go bad.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

We all know Demandred is Bela.

[Fryn]

We learned in this book that Graendal controls Slayer (might have learned it before but it was news to me at the time) since she gave the Dreamspike to him to trap Perrin. So if Greandal was responsible for Asmodean's death, couldn't it have just been Slayer directed by her? The other 2 she was responsible for she didn't directly kill either.

 

She didnt have access to Slayer until ToM. "I will lend you another tool, the man with two souls. But he is mine, just as that spike is mine. Just as you are mine." If anything we learn that Moridin has been controlling Slayer. Moridin gave Graendel both the spike and use of slayer to kill Perrin.

[decrepid dragon]

We all know Demandred is Bela.

I would so laugh if Bela did end up going to the last battle. Even though Bela is clearly the incarnation of the light to balance Shaidar Harran

[waffle]

We all know Demandred is Bela.

I would so laugh if Bela did end up going to the last battle. Even though Bela is clearly the incarnation of the light to balance Shaidar Harran

 

The chances that Siuan, considering her uneasiness with horses, will ride Bela to the big meet-up and any battles she might take part in are pretty good.

[nolirion]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

 

Really ? so what would change now ?

[Cyf]

The interesting thing is that both were wrong. The women wanted to use the Choedan Kal, which would have -cracked the world- quite probably, as they apparently wanted to use it as a blunt hammer. LTT wanted another path. Both plans were horribly flawed, but at least LTT wanted to /do/ something instead of sit on his hands.

 

I find it interesting because this is much the same thing happening now. Egwene wants to point Rand at SG and expect the hammer to work, he wants to have a plan. I really think Rand is duplicating the confrontation in order to do something /different/ this time. Before, it was Male vs Female AS. Now, it's going to be all those armies too. I think Egwene will be pissed and upset when 'her' 'people' say they trust Rand over her.

[FanoLan]

We learned in this book that Graendal controls Slayer (might have learned it before but it was news to me at the time) since she gave the Dreamspike to him to trap Perrin. So if Greandal was responsible for Asmodean's death, couldn't it have just been Slayer directed by her? The other 2 she was responsible for she didn't directly kill either.

 

She didnt have access to Slayer until ToM. "I will lend you another tool, the man with two souls. But he is mine, just as that spike is mine. Just as you are mine." If anything we learn that Moridin has been controlling Slayer. Moridin gave Graendel both the spike and use of slayer to kill Perrin.

 

Not sure of the repercussions from the following, but would like to get some feedback from my fellow WOTicts.

 

Thinking about the above quoted confirmation of Slayer belonging to Moridin led me to conclude we now know Halima'gar, while impersonating Moridin, was behind the Slayer attempt on Rand and Min in Far Madding. S/he thinks about wanting to kill the Dragon (Nae'blis be damned) and also on one of the other Chosen using her method of impersonating other Chosen to issue orders to tools of the DO (who's Sammy, s/he said). Seems like six and six make a dozen here....unless I'm missing the mess.

 

Any ideas on potential significance going forward? Or as an explanation for something done?

 

We already knew the Chosen could access Slayer and this adds nothing to our knowledge of the mechanics of getting it done (TAR, ter', Chez Luc/Isam???). Is the knowledge of the ploy merely a further fleshing out of the Halima'gar story? Maybe to cement the self-interest first aspect of the Chosen for something to come? But that point has been heartily affirmed, re-affirmed and terrafirmed ; >, if a reader has missed that point so far, they surely wouldn't pick up on this somewhat subtle reminder.

 

A chin-scratcher for me at this point.

[Guest recneps]

I think it is interesting how this will end.

 

The dark one defeated, Shaitan vs the Creator. Obviously a corollary to Christian belief.

A world that revolves on the Wheel of Time.

 

It seems to me that Rand may not be able to kill the dark one, but he may, kill time itself.

Ishmael calmly explained in TGS that if he defeats the dark one, the wheel turns on, and keeps up its theory of incarnation after incarnation. Eventually the Dark One will win. It's pointless. Rand asks is that is what finally turned him to the shadow.

 

Yet Jordan himself, said that one of the greatest inventions the Greeks gave us was the ability to turn time into a line instead of the circle it had been on for ages.

 

Maybe the whole point of this is Rand will reseal the bore, but he will break the wheel so that time is not a cycle that turns and rechurns out carbon copies of it's past but lays time itself down into a line. Instead of a giant weave, the age lace will instead become a rope. With a beginning and an end. You end up with the creator or the destroyer.

 

It would seem to me that would fit well with not destroying the dark one, but injecting the Greek idea into it, and as its been pointed out RJ was a student of history and considered that very important. We have a messianic figure who starts time in new direction, unrepeating.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

Really ? so what would change now ?

 

Nothing. IF Rand attempts to use One Power to seal the Bore.

 

That's why Rand destroyed the male Choeden Kal. He's figured out an entirely new way to do things this time. One that uses no One Power.

[JohnnyBeGood]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

 

Really ? so what would change now ?

 

 

Well Rand has not figured it out yet(thats mins job in the month that he has given her), it can be many things. He believes Callandor will play a part.

There are other things that could be helpful/crucial like Mierin Eronaile (Lanfear), Moraines dealings with the Foxes. The spilling of Rands Blood at Shayol Ghul, Rands Death or even Padan Fain showing up.

 

I like the idea of Mat throwing Padan Fains Dagger into the Bore with Fain jumping after it screaming "Precious!".

[Darth Krewl]

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

On the other hand, I think Rand is also being way too hasty. They need to plan, not just go up there and see what happens!

 

Rand is not being hasty. He plans every single "impossibility" that he's tried to pull (like cleansing Saidin) carefully and for a long time. He had Herid Fel's support for advise and has thought things through, based on Fel's teachings. He also has unbidden access to Lews Therin's memories, which make him far more knowledgeable and experienced than any other Third Age channeler and puts him on a par (if not above) the Forsaken themselves.

 

Egwene is being a damned, stubborn idiot, yes. But young people put in such positions of power and responsibility tend to screw up out of lack of experience and I think this is exactly what RJ is trying to illustrate through her and Tuon both.

 

These two are about to make huge mistakes that will be very costly for their respective peoples and that is just as well, because in order for the Light to win, there's got to be BALANCE. And the ways of both, White Tower and Seanchan are a major hindrance to a balanced land with true justice for all. This is already happening and is inevitable, whether the Light or the Shadow wins the Last Battle.

[FarShainMael]

Also... why exactly does Egwene oppose Rand? Are they really working against each other? If this a repeat of the Latra Pose-LTT situation?

 

I have been thinking about this a lot too, and I think Egwene is being a damn idiot for putting herself in the same situation that ended up screwing over all the male AS at the end of the last bore sealing.

 

No it has been made quite clear that the men would have been screwed either ways and the women helping would only have lead to them being screwed too.

 

 

Really ? so what would change now ?

 

 

Well Rand has not figured it out yet(thats mins job in the month that he has given her), it can be many things. He believes Callandor will play a part.

There are other things that could be helpful/crucial like Mierin Eronaile (Lanfear), Moraines dealings with the Foxes. The spilling of Rands Blood at Shayol Ghul, Rands Death or even Padan Fain showing up.

 

I like the idea of Mat throwing Padan Fains Dagger into the Bore with Fain jumping after it screaming "Precious!".

 

ISTR that Mat called Tuon 'Precious' for a while........ Is she going to jump in?? JK!!!

[parsnip2009]

I have to say, i felt that the book wasnt very good.

 

I think there is too much focus on characters who are not relavant. Rodel Ituralde should only be seen as a character whom our major characters such as rand, interact with. I found all the time spent with him to be tedious, and wish more time had been spend with Rand.

 

Actually, whilst dont get me wrong, i do love the series, i think this is one of the flaws with the books, there are just too many characters.

 

For instance.

 

There is absolutely no reason why this story could not have been told without the seanchan, the knitting circle, the windfinders, etc.

 

We have the Dark One, The Forsaken, do we really need Fain and mashadar and golams etc.

 

We have Egwene, and Elayne, and Min, and Aviendha, and Nyneave, and so on. Min is not needed at all - give the visions to Elayne or Aviendha, make it simpler. Not to mention so many instantly forgetable Aes Sedai. In fact when the Aviendha part of the book turned up, i admit i had forgotten about her character.

 

There has been in my opinion, since Lord of Chaos, too many characters, and not enough focus on what is important, by which i mean our central characters.

 

So taking that forward, the amount of time spent on Perrin in this book, whilst in someways great is also frustrating. The amount of time spent in the wolf dream, at this point in the series, i found very frustrating. I feel that the books would have been better if this had happened a long time ago, but no it couldnt because too much time has been spent on irrelevancy.

 

The last battle has been built up to be such a big deal. I feel that it needs possibly 20-5 chapters just on that, then with the amount of characters, you need a large part of the final book to deal with what happens afterwards.

 

I feel for Brandon Sanderson, because i think he has been handled a somewhat impossible task - to finish the series in a satisfactory manner.

 

I think Robert Jordan lost his way after LOC, and the series has suffered as a whole.

 

This does not mean though that i will not be buying A Memory Of Light on the day of release. I need to know how this story ends, i just dont care about characters like Rodel Ituralde.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think Robert Jordan lost his way after LOC, and the series has suffered as a whole.

 

This does not mean though that i will not be buying A Memory Of Light on the day of release. I need to know how this story ends, i just dont care about characters like Rodel Ituralde.

 

And this is the tragedy of the Wheel of Time series.

 

Rodel Ituralde is a fascinating and complex character. Well worth caring about. Well worth following.

 

But, you're also absolutely correct that Jordan overwhelmed the story with trivialities and non-essential characters. In the end he created a world where it is now difficult to care about anybody, even Rand, Mat, and Perrin. And, that did not have to happen.

[parsnip2009]

I think Robert Jordan lost his way after LOC, and the series has suffered as a whole.

 

This does not mean though that i will not be buying A Memory Of Light on the day of release. I need to know how this story ends, i just dont care about characters like Rodel Ituralde.

 

And this is the tragedy of the Wheel of Time series.

 

Rodel Ituralde is a fascinating and complex character. Well worth caring about. Well worth following.

 

But, you're also absolutely correct that Jordan overwhelmed the story with trivialities and non-essential characters. In the end he created a world where it is now difficult to care about anybody, even Rand, Mat, and Perrin. And, that did not have to happen.

 

 

Yes i agree. Rodel is an intersting character, in off himself. But at this point in a series like this, to spend so much time on a character, who is essentially irrelavant, i found very annoying.

[masaru]

I used to agree with this sentiment, but ToM turned me around somehow. The scale of this struggle really impressed me. Sometimes in stories there is a tendency to keep the scope fairly small and involve on the same characters which makes the coincidences somewhat hard to believe. "Oh, this important character's mother is secretly the villian!?" or "Chewbacca helped Yoda!?". I have to admire that RJ was willing to show a World War from every angle and treat this story as a conflict that truly touches everyone in the world. It makes everything a bit more believable and absorbing to me, and is just plain impressive from a storytelling viewpoint. At this point in the story I don't feel like there are that many loose ends dangling as a result, either. The immensity of the story makes me look forward to the resolution even more. It feels like it will have been worth it.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Stop whining. Jordan made an amazing world is awesome characters. Its not always about the main characters and epic endings. He made a complete world and i for one am glad coz i enjoyed every bit of it.

[parsnip2009]

Stop whining. Jordan made an amazing world is awesome characters. Its not always about the main characters and epic endings. He made a complete world and i for one am glad coz i enjoyed every bit of it.

 

 

Well im glad you enjoyed it.

 

Though your response is why i tend to stay away from forums like this most of the time. I am a fan. I love the wheel of time books. This does not mean however that i dont feel they can be criticised.

 

I'm not whining. I made constructive comments about why i think Towers of Midnight is not a very good book.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Stop whining. Jordan made an amazing world is awesome characters. Its not always about the main characters and epic endings. He made a complete world and i for one am glad coz i enjoyed every bit of it.

 

Only he didn't make a complete world. We don't really get to see inside Seanchan. We don't get to go to Shara. We don't go to the Island of Madmen. We didn't even get to meet the Amyar before they all drank the kool-aid. We've barely had a glimpse of Sea Folk society.

 

Jordan got lost in lace and frills and fluff and spankings to the point where there was neither time not space to create that complete world. We're stuck with knowing far too much about far too many trivial things and people in a fragment of a complete world.

 

That's not good writing.

[parsnip2009]

I used to agree with this sentiment, but ToM turned me around somehow. The scale of this struggle really impressed me. Sometimes in stories there is a tendency to keep the scope fairly small and involve on the same characters which makes the coincidences somewhat hard to believe. "Oh, this important character's mother is secretly the villian!?" or "Chewbacca helped Yoda!?". I have to admire that RJ was willing to show a World War from every angle and treat this story as a conflict that truly touches everyone in the world. It makes everything a bit more believable and absorbing to me, and is just plain impressive from a storytelling viewpoint. At this point in the story I don't feel like there are that many loose ends dangling as a result, either. The immensity of the story makes me look forward to the resolution even more. It feels like it will have been worth it.

 

Yes i agree with this to a point. The greater world building of Jordan is something that i very much enjoyed, up to around the end of Lord of Chaos. I feel that since this point this world building has taken over the story he was trying to tell, and as such that momentum that was so great about the first 6 novels was lost. I feel novels such as Path of Daggers, Crossroads of Twilight, and unfortunately Towers of Midnight have suffered from this.