Discuss The Full Book

[Darth Krewl]

And live their whole lives in terror of informers and secret police, who can haul them away and torture them to death at any time, without explanation or recourse.

Not to mention all the grovelling to their superiors they'd have to do on the way up. And risk of brutal punishment if they don't grovel enough.

You also forget that in most of Randland commoners can rise very high too. Thom's family were peasants, we have seen chief advisers to the Borderland monarchs who were of common origin, we have heard of Andoran consorts ditto,Ituralde, etc. There were a multitude of Amyrlins with backgrounds of extreme poverty, etc.

 

And what about Seanchan slavery? Not just of channelers, but general hereditary slavery, huh? Or doesn't it count if it isn't based on skin color? Yes, there are a few fortunate, privileged slaves like Selucia or Karede, who were selected for exclusive training and important duty, but what about the rest? And as we have also seen with Egeanin and Domon, the extremely rare manumitted slaves can never be social equals of freeborn Seanchan.

 

Fortunately, I don't think that Aviendha's vision is a real or even likely future. For one thing, _all_ the main characters would have had to die within the 20 years post-TG for it to be possible. For another "remnant of remnant will he save" prophecy would have to be false. IMHO, it is more in the nature of a warning, constructed fro Avi's own knowledge, questions and fears.

 

hehe...

 

You don't think that being a man, hunted down like a wild beast, only because you were born with an innate ability that you did NOT choose for yourself, is NOT living life in terror? You can't see that, in a true and democratic state, an Aes Sedai like say, Cadsuane, would most certainly be put on trial and probably executed for the many men that she murdered in cold blood, while being hailed as a "legend" by her peers, only because they could channel and would lose their minds?

 

Many Amyrlins have come from humble origins? How does that count, when in fact, we all know full well that amongst Aes Sedai, it is their strength in the power that dictates their rank and nothing else? Not to mention that we've already had 12 books (and a 13th. coming out just today, precisely) which have clearly demonstrated that Aes Sedai are some of the most discriminating, prejudiced, cruel, mean, rude, arrogant and all in all, inhuman characters in the world of The Wheel of Time.

 

If you really think that living under the shadow of the White Tower is a true state of freedom, all you have to do is look at their own inner rules. No person should be beaten silly and verbally humiliated, only for speaking out of place. Look at other, similar institutions/organizations in fantasy (the Jedi Order, Hogwart's, etc.) and tell me which were ruled through terror, like Tar Valon? Somehow, I've a hard time picturing Yoda or Dumbledore sending some young Padawan/wizard to be spanked until they get many more cracks in their backside, only for screwing up. It is degrading, inhuman treatment that stands against the human rights that would be upheld in any nation, institution or organization.

 

Now, as I have already said, the world of The Wheel of Time has already been irreversibly changed, including the Seanchan. Or, do you really believe that Mat will have no say in future matters of their empire? I know the guy dislikes Aes Sedai almost as much as me...hehe...but he certainly has never condoned the use of a'dams and the existence of damane and da'covale. The man only happens to be the Empress hubby, aka, the Emperor, which means he will bring change to the Seanchan, whether they end up conquering the "Randlands", joining forces with the locals or destroyed, along with everyone else, by the Dark One.

 

Take your pick, but don't tell me that the "Randlands" of the Third Age are any better than the Seanchan Empire.

[Guest BenjaminW.Thomas]

A brief thought on the Prophecy of the Shadow.

 

I think it's interesting to note some of the ideas as to the identity of the Broken Wolf. The One-Eyed Fool, the Fallen Blacksmith and the First Among Vermin are fairly obvious as Mat, Perrin & Rand (for those wavering on the First Among Vermin, recall how Lews Therin was called the first among the Servants by Ishmael in the Prologue to the Eye of the World), but the Broken Wolf is a little more controversial. Also, the use of Death capitalised is taken as definitely Moridin - but Destroy, Darkness and Shadow are all capitalised too, and refer to concepts rather than people.

 

Elyas and Isam have both been offered as the Broken Wolf, but I doubt either fits - why would Isam (despite being known to death &/or Moridin) falling be cause for fear and sorrow? And how has Elyas known death/Moridin, let alone the fact again of a seeming lack of fear and sorrow at his fall? Neither seems to tick the boxes.

 

Throwing out an odd idea - I am wondering if the Broken Wolf might somehow refer to Lan. He is known to death, having spent much of his life fighting the unending war in the Blight, 'courting Death as a love' as Lord Agelmar describes it. Wolf and wolfish are terms used to describe the movement of Warders in several of the books, with their deadly grace, and Broken as applied to Lan could easily read as his life and status as the king of the Malkieri with a broken land and people. As to the fall, Lan is currently leading a suicide charge into Tarwin's Gap, with no sign of rescue. If he did fall, it would indeed bring fear and sorrow to the Malkieri and to the rest of the Borderlands who revere him as Dai Shain, and a loss at Tarwin's Gap would lead to the shaking of men's will.

 

Just a thought - curious to know if anyone else might have had it. :)

 

 

-Andiyar

[shizuoka]

I don't cry when reading books, and please don't take offense, but I never understood people who got that emotional over what is at the end of the day a story. Aviendha's experience in the columns did not make me cry, but I certainly felt seized up by emotion as I read that scene.

 

1. Aviendha in the Columns/Towers of Ghenji tied, and ToG is #1 only because I love Mat, in terms of emotional punch Aviendha is hands down first.

2. Mat and Perrin reunion.

3. Mat and Brigitte.

4. The wolves howling in victory in the beginning.

5. Perrin and Boundless at the end of the book.

 

 

Also, I fully admit I skipped over parts in my first reading, but why did the merchant say that Kandor fell, I thought that it was only the northern forts that did. Is that his impression or was it confirmed somewhere else in the book? And also, did Mat regain his original foxhead?

 

I am almost certain that the red-veiled Aiel are not in fact Aiel but Sharan, it's the impression I get. And any thoughts on Demandred's Eighty And One?

 

While I didn't cry or anything reading this book, I can totally understand people who would. It's like people crying at the movies... At the end of the day, it is just a story but if the experiences you see/read are related to your personal life...it's very easy to get emotional. I got a little choked up at the Rand & Tam scene. Why? Not because I was so happy about the characters Rand & Tam getting back together. (Although that's a small part of it) Mostly, it's because it relates to how I haven't spoken to my dad in 5 years. Everyone has their own little switches that cause them to get emotional. The Avi or Olver scenes weren't one of mine but everyone is different.

 

I was also confused about the merchant saying Kandor fell... He was probably just in shock after seeing a fort or 2 fall. The trollocs couldn't have overrun the ENTIRE country already.

 

Mat regained the original foxhead. Elayne states it in her POV's that it was indeed the original she gave back.

 

Red-veiled aiel = sharan .... Hmm interesting theory but not a lot of facts to back it up with. I wonder if there's enough time to throw in another culture/nation with only one book remaining.

[slacker123]

I'm still confused why the bond between Lan and Moiraine was disconnected. She wasn't cut off from the true source. Yes, the Snakes and Foxes drained her of most of her one power ability but she did still have a small amount left....I'm wondering if this was one of her wishes because she knew Lan would try to rescue her and end up killing them both.

 

because she ended up in a different world...

[slacker123]

What an excellent post. One of the best I've read.

 

I myself had been thinking that the Seanchan coming out as the winners in this whole affair would not be such a bad thing, after all.

 

Still, let's not forget that with Mat as their Empress's mate, things will also have to change radically within their own civilization. In other words, I don't think that a Seanchan ruler has taken a "Randlander" for a partner in the history of their Empire and I see them also changing from their attempted "Return". From that POV, it'll be interesting to see just what Mat brings to the table as the Prince of Ravens (if that's his title. I don't remember exactly right now).

 

So, in the end, even for those who want a happy ending, the thing's that the world of The Wheel of Time will change radically from what we've come to know (love it or hate it, the wheel's already willed it, so to speak) and there's no turning back.

 

That being said, the Shadow may still win (let's face it, right now, they stand the best chance) and then, none of this would matter. But if the Dark One doesn't get the prize and the Seanchan do rise victorious in the end, it'll be interesting to see how things shape up...if that can fit into one single book. Oh, and don't forget: Mr. Jordan's next project was supposed to be the story of a man who got lost in a Seanchan-like civilization, if I recall correctly, which may be a hint as to what kind of future he had envisioned for the WOT universe.

 

whatever mat brings was good, until tuon no longer the empress...thats when things started to go downhill supposedly

it is not what the wheel wills, it is just a possibility of what may be

[slacker123]

I Have A Question For Those That Have Read TOM:

 

 

What is your gut NOW telling you about Mazrim Taim???... That is my question.

 

 

I know that we do not get many glances at him in TOM, but there is significant insight into the Black Tower.

 

 

We know he is not Demandred. We have for years.

 

 

In my opinion, The epilogue of KOD and the glances inside the Black Tower in TOM are what really should be considered the fuel to re-ignite the ''Just what/who exactly IS Taim???'' analysis.

 

 

So, I will ask you, as of TOM's conclusion. are your instincts telling you that Taim is:

 

 

1 Just another lifelong DF who ended up being able to channel an enormous amount of the Power?

 

 

2 Not a DF or a ''Good Guy'' but an independent-thinking free agent who jumps where he sees his biggest advantage.

 

 

3 Maybe a mercenary? Hired gun-type working for a Forsaken?

 

 

4 A man who began to channel - very strongly - and was 13X13ed?

 

 

5 Maybe just a guyw ho wasn't really a ''DF/Bad Guy'' but became bitter after meeting Rand and hating and resenting him on first sight?

 

 

6 Maybe not a Male Channeler who was 13X13ed but maybe under COMPULSION from one of the Forsaken?

 

 

7 A combination of the above?

 

 

8 Other?

 

 

 

Fish

 

i pick #9!

who cares?

taim is boring, i skipped anything involving the BT ^.^

[slacker123]

 

 

On another topic I'm not sure if this is me coming up with a loony theory because I don't want Perrin to die or what, but here goes:

 

Slayer is the Broken Wolf:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers"

 

Basis. I think Isam at least must have been a wolfbrother (possibly Luc too, but not sure) as he seems to share with wolves that after death he can remain in TAR, however he clearly is not of the light, this means that either he was a DF or being a wolfbrother, darkhounds turned him? Hence upon death he still lives in TAR, yet not being of the light means he is not a wolfbrother, but a broken wolf.

Another thing is that the way the prophecy talks about the one eyed fool (most likely Mat), then first among vermin (possibly Fain) then the fallen blacksmith (probably Perrin) then the broken wolf, would it change the way it is written and mention one of them twice by a different name.

Slayer also knows Moridin (death).

 

Could thinking this refers to Perrin be a miscomprehension on the shadows part or am I clinging at straws here???

 

Uh no, the Broken Wolf would be Jain Farstrider...

[Sharaman]

I'm still confused why the bond between Lan and Moiraine was disconnected. She wasn't cut off from the true source. Yes, the Snakes and Foxes drained her of most of her one power ability but she did still have a small amount left....I'm wondering if this was one of her wishes because she knew Lan would try to rescue her and end up killing them both.

The two realms were disconnected when the door burnt, is one solution I can find.

Or she released the bond deliberately as she jumped Lanfear.

BTW, who busted the door in Tear? Would it have been Moridin or whoever came to fetch Lanfear, since you'd need massive force?

[Guest hazee69]

it's graendal. there is a conversation early in towers were moridin tells graendal (after killing aran'gar) "you are making a habit of this (killing forsaken)", indicating she's done it before. no need to guess twice who was the first.

[Jon Paul]

I woke up at around 17:00 on the 1st. I stayed up until the book store opened at 10:00 on the 2nd. I began reading the book at roughly 11:00 on the 2nd. I have not slept and just reached Elayne's claiming the Sun Throne at 09:00 on the 3rd. My arms are numb, colours are very washed out. Must give my thoughts before I sleep.

 

But I find I cannot. Too tire to be coherent. Loved Rand. Took second look on Gawyn's sword skill and must say I liked the deeper look at the character. I actually liked Perrin AND Faile. Perrin's development was a LONG TIME in coming and Faile wasn't so bad, especially since she's stopped trying to work against Rand. I must admit, Faile's past failings were not really her own, it's because of Perrin that I have hated her all this time. But Perrin got cool again. Mat was perfect. He sounded a little different than normal, but no where near as bad as TGS. Thom seemed off in my head but probably became I assign the same voice, with different levels of gravelyness or whatever to Rodel, Bashere AND Thom.

 

Hated Egwene of course. Her power-plays against Rand. Despised. Gah. Elayne wasn't so bad. Glad she's not blaming Rand for everything. Shame she's still firmly in Egwene's camp.

 

Nyn'.. I don't know who I like more.. Rand, Nyn' or Mat (I cannot include Perrin in here for this one redeeming book. Must see how his story ends before he can get in there). Nyn has kept her independence. She's a true servant of all. She serves humanity not the White Tower.

 

I must say right now, Nyn's description of the madness on Rand's mind.. it's still making me shiver. It's just.. disgusting. I can picture the madness as a physical taint. I know, the thorns are no longer digging in. He's protected from it, it's been lifted.. the description of THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of those barbed hooks.. I want them gone but I don't think it COULD be removed.

 

It makes me ponder on Moridin's mind. And it's even scarier. Rand's brief touch with the True Power caused most of those thorns I'd wager. Poor Moridin.

 

Hey, it's my birthday today as well !

[Vermillion]

First Among Vermin is Rand as he is going to break the seals. I think Perrin has already done his part, as has Mat.

 

 

.... the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hears of men, and shake their very will itself.

 

Yes, and the Broken Wolf

 

Indeed, and the Broken Wolf

 

Not only, and the Broken Wolf

 

 

Yea

 

1.

yes (used in affirmation or assent).

2.

indeed: Yea, and he did come.

3.

not only this but even: a good, yea, a noble man.

–noun

4.

an affirmation; an affirmative reply or vote.

5.

a person who votes in the affirmative.

 

That Broken Wolf thing is going to be tough to crack.

[General Cauthon]

 

 

On another topic I'm not sure if this is me coming up with a loony theory because I don't want Perrin to die or what, but here goes:

 

Slayer is the Broken Wolf:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one who death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers"

 

Basis. I think Isam at least must have been a wolfbrother (possibly Luc too, but not sure) as he seems to share with wolves that after death he can remain in TAR, however he clearly is not of the light, this means that either he was a DF or being a wolfbrother, darkhounds turned him? Hence upon death he still lives in TAR, yet not being of the light means he is not a wolfbrother, but a broken wolf.

Another thing is that the way the prophecy talks about the one eyed fool (most likely Mat), then first among vermin (possibly Fain) then the fallen blacksmith (probably Perrin) then the broken wolf, would it change the way it is written and mention one of them twice by a different name.

Slayer also knows Moridin (death).

 

Could thinking this refers to Perrin be a miscomprehension on the shadows part or am I clinging at straws here???

 

Uh no, the Broken Wolf would be Jain Farstrider...

 

I agree. And that means that the title of the book refers to the three towers we see in Finnland....

[Crael123]

And live their whole lives in terror of informers and secret police, who can haul them away and torture them to death at any time, without explanation or recourse.

Not to mention all the grovelling to their superiors they'd have to do on the way up. And risk of brutal punishment if they don't grovel enough.

You also forget that in most of Randland commoners can rise very high too. Thom's family were peasants, we have seen chief advisers to the Borderland monarchs who were of common origin, we have heard of Andoran consorts ditto,Ituralde, etc. There were a multitude of Amyrlins with backgrounds of extreme poverty, etc.

 

And what about Seanchan slavery? Not just of channelers, but general hereditary slavery, huh? Or doesn't it count if it isn't based on skin color? Yes, there are a few fortunate, privileged slaves like Selucia or Karede, who were selected for exclusive training and important duty, but what about the rest? And as we have also seen with Egeanin and Domon, the extremely rare manumitted slaves can never be social equals of freeborn Seanchan.

 

Fortunately, I don't think that Aviendha's vision is a real or even likely future. For one thing, _all_ the main characters would have had to die within the 20 years post-TG for it to be possible. For another "remnant of remnant will he save" prophecy would have to be false. IMHO, it is more in the nature of a warning, constructed fro Avi's own knowledge, questions and fears.

 

hehe...

 

You don't think that being a man, hunted down like a wild beast, only because you were born with an innate ability that you did NOT choose for yourself, is NOT living life in terror? You can't see that, in a true and democratic state, an Aes Sedai like say, Cadsuane, would most certainly be put on trial and probably executed for the many men that she murdered in cold blood, while being hailed as a "legend" by her peers, only because they could channel and would lose their minds?

 

Many Amyrlins have come from humble origins? How does that count, when in fact, we all know full well that amongst Aes Sedai, it is their strength in the power that dictates their rank and nothing else? Not to mention that we've already had 12 books (and a 13th. coming out just today, precisely) which have clearly demonstrated that Aes Sedai are some of the most discriminating, prejudiced, cruel, mean, rude, arrogant and all in all, inhuman characters in the world of The Wheel of Time.

 

If you really think that living under the shadow of the White Tower is a true state of freedom, all you have to do is look at their own inner rules. No person should be beaten silly and verbally humiliated, only for speaking out of place. Look at other, similar institutions/organizations in fantasy (the Jedi Order, Hogwart's, etc.) and tell me which were ruled through terror, like Tar Valon? Somehow, I've a hard time picturing Yoda or Dumbledore sending some young Padawan/wizard to be spanked until they get many more cracks in their backside, only for screwing up. It is degrading, inhuman treatment that stands against the human rights that would be upheld in any nation, institution or organization.

 

Now, as I have already said, the world of The Wheel of Time has already been irreversibly changed, including the Seanchan. Or, do you really believe that Mat will have no say in future matters of their empire? I know the guy dislikes Aes Sedai almost as much as me...hehe...but he certainly has never condoned the use of a'dams and the existence of damane and da'covale. The man only happens to be the Empress hubby, aka, the Emperor, which means he will bring change to the Seanchan, whether they end up conquering the "Randlands", joining forces with the locals or destroyed, along with everyone else, by the Dark One.

 

Take your pick, but don't tell me that the "Randlands" of the Third Age are any better than the Seanchan Empire.

 

I agree. The aes sedai order is fundamentally flawed because of their strength ranking and things. Suian demonstrates this very well. the head of the body is corrupted therefor the rest of the body is. but we have seen some aes sedai that aren't completely messed up, Elayne nyneave, and some of the weaker ones in rands entourage.

 

The seanchan i agree must change before they can successfully rule. slavery is the bane of the nations. it just makes them less powerful and having less loyal masses to draw upon.

 

Epic win btw Darth

[DottieGirl]

About 500 pages in, just a few things:

 

1. Loved Nyn's testing and her attack on the AS method of earning the shawl. And I suspect she will use BF as a weapon before the end. Also, I loved that she could heal madness too, Naeff (and hopefully Narishma/Flinn as she indicated). I wonder if it is one of those things where a member of the opposite gender must perform the healing.

 

2. Call me crazy, but I felt for the gholam just a little bit. It deserved to die, but what a way to go. I do hope Mr. Sanderson doesn't cheapen it in the next book, somehow rescuing it, but I imagine one of the FS wouldn't go to such lengths even if they could. I am curious as to why it didn't die when it passed through a gateway though. Is that only true for Traveling and not Skimming? Or is the death of Shadowspawn passing through a gateway not instantaneous, but a delayed effect?

 

3. Epic Rand vs Shadowspawn scene...almost a bit too much. I wonder what damage he could have done if he had had a suitable sa'angreal like the CK when he was properly "angry" with the DO. He could have probably wiped out every last Shadowspawn on the planet.

 

Can't wait to finish!

[Jeangray]

You don't think that being a man, hunted down like a wild beast, only because you were born with an innate ability that you did NOT choose for yourself, is NOT living life in terror?

 

Not following you here. If the men had integrity they would have ended it themselves and wouldn't need to be hunted. They were ticking bombs who tended to kill large numbers of innocents when they exploded. Not their fault, of course, but neither can you fault those who tried to prevent such tragedies.

You also seem to miss that Seanchan hunt and kill them along with everybody else in the world. The only difference being that gentling as practiced by the AS gave the men a small chance to survive, something other cultures didn't grant them.

 

Many Amyrlins have come from humble origins? How does that count, when in fact, we all know full well that amongst Aes Sedai, it is their strength in the power that dictates their rank and nothing else?

 

It is possible for the Sitters, Keepers and Amyrlins to be weak. Just as it is possible for commoners to rise in Seanchan... yet the majority of important positions are still held by hereditary nobles.

Not that I defend the OP strength hierarchy, which is asinine, but in the end rise of individuals from the bottom to the top often depends on inborn talents which they did nothing to "earn".

 

 

Not to mention that we've already had 12 books (and a 13th. coming out just today, precisely) which have clearly demonstrated that Aes Sedai are some of the most discriminating, prejudiced, cruel, mean, rude, arrogant and all in all, inhuman characters in the world of The Wheel of Time.

 

Umm, ya, completely disagree with you here. IMHO, AS are more humanitarian than ruling classes of any Randland nation, leave alone the Seanchan. Or did you forget how the 3 AS with Mat tried to convince him to help wounded Seanchan soldiers? After they have been persecuted by Seanchan, after 2 of them have been tortured and degraded by them for months?

 

Or, do you really believe that Mat will have no say in future matters of their empire? I know the guy dislikes Aes Sedai almost as much as me...hehe...but he certainly has never condoned the use of a'dams and the existence of damane and da'covale.

 

Yet in Avi's vision, Seanchan continue to be happy slaveholders, both of channelers and non-channelers and both Tuon and by implication Mat are out of the picture. This is one of the reasons for the war, BTW.

[forzainternl]

Hi! I haven't read the book entirely but whilst reading I found a misprint in the Orbit version I bought in The Netherlands. I have been closing my eyes to get no spoilers whilst posting this so I don't know if someone mentioned it before. Anyway on the top of page 217 in Chapter 15: Use a Pebble (3rd page of the chapter) in the following quote the word "foot" is mistyped as "food"

 

The guardsmen moved off. Nynaeve turned to Naeff, and he nodded.

She turned and took a step into the affected section of town. When her

foot hit the paving stone, the stone turned to dust. Her food sank through

the shattered paving stone and hit packed earth.

 

Just wanted to put this out there! I am starting chapter 16 book is simply a Wow wow book... amazing!

[Barid Bel Medar]

The First Among Verimin is Moridin as the Nae'blis.

 

Seanchan are certainly worse than the White Tower. The Aes Sedai are flawed, cold, arrogant and foolish as a group, but they are better than the Seanchan. But I think that the Tower will undergo a reformation. The Tower as it is is a farce. Whoever says they are awesome is willfully ignorant. The AS NEED to change. However, even so, their intentions are good most of the time. They do not enslave people, nor hunt down and kill people for being who they are. the men who could channel before the cleansing needed to be stopped. Simple truth is that it would be utterly stupid letting madmen channel freely. After the Black Tower was formed, things SHOULD change, but it is hard to forget 3000 years. However, the LB is comming, the male channelers were needed, taint or no.

[Lynchgrinch]

Em, since there aint a seperate thread for " what the hell was lanfear doing at the end of the book"...i wanna ask..

 

WHAT THE HELL WAS LANFEAR DOING AT THE END OF THE BOOK?!?!?!?!?

 

Seems to me like the mindtrap has cyndane/lanfears soul stuck in T'A'R.

And it seems to me that that soul was actualy good! Maby lanfear could be a candidate for the 13x13 turning to the shadow? and then that projection of her being "good" is maby a premonition of how the 13x13 turned soul is still good deep down.

 

QUOTE:

 

"Those eyes.Those beautiful, terrible eyes. Rand gasped, relesing her hand.. The face was differant. But he did know the soul. "Mierin? you're dead. I saw you die!"

 

She shook her head. "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before healing me just enough to keep me alive. He-" She cut off, jerking.

 

 

"what?"

 

 

Her eyes opened wide and she spun towars the wall. "No!" she screamed.

"He comes! The shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth. No!"....She spun, reaching for rand, but something towed her backward. The wall broke away and she tumbled into the darkness below.

 

CLOSE QUOTE

 

The bold dialogue makes me think that she does still somewhere deep down oppose the shadown, a whole way forsaken by choice would not refrence GLOD as a " murderer of truth", no matter how she was being tortured, she would have completely given her soul, by choice.

 

Seems to me like there is hope for Mieirin yet.

 

Also, we could probably use a seperate thread for this type discussion, Luckers, if you're reading.

 

Thoughts?

[Decius]

I'm not sure about Lanfear, but it certainly seems like the BT's been infested by the DO - People disappearing and reappearing 'different'? Asha'man who never laughed now cruelly laughing? I think Taim's turning the male channellers to the Shadow before he raises them as Asha'man.

[Fel]

Just finished the book and loved most of it, but (not to turn this into an elayne hating rant), what the heck was up with making us wade through tons MORE Elayne political crap? Seriously, the rest of the book is about everyone preparing for the final battle of the world and Elayne is working on securing the throne of Cairhein (as if anyone cares...)? I wish we had had a LOT more material on the tower of genghi (sp?), and just cut all of those chapters out completely.

 

Last rant...are the "light" never going to get wise that the darkfriend AS must be killed/stilled ASAP and not just shielded until someone comes to rescue them again? I've seen that useless rescue scene 20 times across the series, but they never seem to learn.

 

 

On a good note, it was refreshing to find Mat/Perrin and others actually discussing things and seeing people share information in this book.

[Sharaman]

Just finished the book and loved most of it, but (not to turn this into an elayne hating rant), what the heck was up with making us wade through tons MORE Elayne political crap? Seriously, the rest of the book is about everyone preparing for the final battle of the world and Elayne is working on securing the throne of Cairhein (as if anyone cares...)? I wish we had had a LOT more material on the tower of genghi (sp?), and just cut all of those chapters out completely.

 

Last rant...are the "light" never going to get wise that the darkfriend AS must be killed/stilled ASAP and not just shielded until someone comes to rescue them again? I've seen that useless rescue scene 20 times across the series, but they never seem to learn.

 

 

On a good note, it was refreshing to find Mat/Perrin and others actually discussing things and seeing people share information in this book.

 

The Elayne thread will start making sense when we discover the Dyelin is a DF.

She's actually Demandred's mistress

[clu7ch]

Dottie, I have to say I don't think Rand need's a sa'angreal anymore. It seems like his little emo moment on dragonmount almost imparted the power of the CK in him, because he couldn't do that display of power we saw in Maradon ever previously. We saw how drained he gets, and he just basically skips away from this carnage. I Hate to make a sexual reference here - but the Choden Kal and Calandor seemed to have stretched his vah-jay-jay out enough that he can do absolutely wonderful acts without stress to himself. A POV chapter would have been nice during the events of a Storm of Light, but unfortunately, he left it up to our speculation.

[Loophole]

firstly just finished and love the book.

 

Lots of theories proved in this book i think :D

 

i think we can safely say that the male Aiel that went to the waste were turned, that could be a problem lol

[clu7ch]

Hey Luckers or whoever else reads this, can we get a topic up for Cyndane/Lanfear?

 

BECAUSE I have some thoughts on the dream sequence in the epiclogue. At first I thought he was in Moridin's dream thing again, but I quickly ruled that out. Lanfear was powerful in TAR, but we know that Rand had set up powerful barriers around his dreams. We'll get back to that momentarily.

At first, I thought Lanfear was being punished for something, possibly related to Nakomi. Now I'm fairly confident she's not being punished at all. Well, for anything aside from Moridin simply punishing for the joy of it. I can parallel it to the Seanchan a'dam down to the letter almost. A more brutal one, but still practically the same. Supportive evidence for this is that Lanfear, in Rand's dream, is extremely similar in behavior to Egwene during her time spent in forced servitude. Do I think that Lanfear has repented from her sins as one of the Forsaken? Not entirely. She's always played the line of Chaotic Neutral/Lawful Evil (in her mind) - in that she manipulates, but doesn't strike unless she feels threatened, or feels like LTT is being a woolhead. I think she is quite evil, but I don't think she's ever devoutly served the Dark One. I think she recognizes him as a terrible accident, her accident. She's always looking to Lews Therin, or Rand more recently as a way to silence the Dark One and become the Dark Lady in essence.

 

I believe she's definitely looking for a rescue. I believe Rand is the noble guy who might try it, because he's the type that doesn't listen to reason on such topics. She would be a useful ally, but the kind of ally Min or Nyn would kill straight up when His back is turned. It's a confusing situation, one that I greatly look forward to seeing the resolution of.

 

Back to the dream thing though. Is it possible that she forced her way into his dream? IIRC, people have tried and failed. Did this dream sequence force it's way into every sleeping being's dream? Or is it a well played trick by Moridin, who I challenge could technically be in Rand's dream (or have access to) due to the bond between them. Just as Rand shows up around Moridin's crib uninvited.

[Sharaman]

Hey Luckers or whoever else reads this, can we get a topic up for Cyndane/Lanfear?

 

BECAUSE I have some thoughts on the dream sequence in the epiclogue. At first I thought he was in Moridin's dream thing again, but I quickly ruled that out. Lanfear was powerful in TAR, but we know that Rand had set up powerful barriers around his dreams. We'll get back to that momentarily.

At first, I thought Lanfear was being punished for something, possibly related to Nakomi. Now I'm fairly confident she's not being punished at all. Well, for anything aside from Moridin simply punishing for the joy of it. I can parallel it to the Seanchan a'dam down to the letter almost. A more brutal one, but still practically the same. Supportive evidence for this is that Lanfear, in Rand's dream, is extremely similar in behavior to Egwene during her time spent in forced servitude. Do I think that Lanfear has repented from her sins as one of the Forsaken? Not entirely. She's always played the line of Chaotic Neutral/Lawful Evil (in her mind) - in that she manipulates, but doesn't strike unless she feels threatened, or feels like LTT is being a woolhead. I think she is quite evil, but I don't think she's ever devoutly served the Dark One. I think she recognizes him as a terrible accident, her accident. She's always looking to Lews Therin, or Rand more recently as a way to silence the Dark One and become the Dark Lady in essence.

 

I believe she's definitely looking for a rescue. I believe Rand is the noble guy who might try it, because he's the type that doesn't listen to reason on such topics. She would be a useful ally, but the kind of ally Min or Nyn would kill straight up when His back is turned. It's a confusing situation, one that I greatly look forward to seeing the resolution of.

 

Back to the dream thing though. Is it possible that she forced her way into his dream? IIRC, people have tried and failed. Did this dream sequence force it's way into every sleeping being's dream? Or is it a well played trick by Moridin, who I challenge could technically be in Rand's dream (or have access to) due to the bond between them. Just as Rand shows up around Moridin's crib uninvited.

Well, she once said she could break into his dreams. She's also a fairly decent actress. It's actually easier to do in TAR isn't it.

The blackness though suggests it was a nightmare, rather than something of conscious volition.

(I am assuming Moggy wouldn't be capable of pulling this off - she might because she's got the requisite ability as well.)

And Elan - well, who knows what he can do especially since there's a strong connection between him, Rand and Cyndi?