Moiraine, Leigh and Jason

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'm still waiting for word of Perrins physical mutilation. He's gotten off pretty easy so far in that department. Horrible as she is, I don't think Faile counts.

Not that Mat has actually had his already, but it's strongly enough implied to make it almost certain.

[Ashaman Kovan]

We know he went in there when Perrin chased him in Tel,

 

Do we know that he actually went inside? I thought when RJ was asked he RAFO'd it.

[Razor]

As the three ae entering the tower, the gholam attacks. Noal is killed but olver jumps through at the end so there are still 3.

[TheBeerPatriot]

 

So that's my theory. Mat, Jason and Leigh will enter the Towers of Midnight to save Moiraine, only to be followed in by Oluckers. Jason and Leigh will end up trapped in a Finn Leather-working factory [Oh CRAP!], Mat will lose an eye, but he, Moiraine and Oluckers will escape--all blissfully unaware that Oluckers is Demandred, and orchestrated the whole thing.

 

 

Very nice, but where is Valan Luca in all of this?

He'll be drawing water in the Caemlyn palace for Elayne to take a bath.

[Barid Bel Medar]

We know he went in there when Perrin chased him in Tel,

 

Do we know that he actually went inside? I thought when RJ was asked he RAFO'd it.

 

he didnt.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

[TreeJoe]

Random note, but I wonder if part of the problems experienced in the ToG will be because of Noal attending....

 

Noal can't remember alot, and has a mind definitely afflicted by either compulsion, the Dark One, or otherwise evilness and the shadow.

 

Since we know that things "touching upon the Shadow" are dealt with severely, I think Noal coming along is going to be a big source of the ToG problems....

[Lisa Campbell]

There has been speculation about Moiraine being stilled or burnt out when Mat rescues her from the ToG. I think that she will actually be stronger. I'm basing this on the fact that Cyndane is significantly weaker than what she was when she was Lanfear and assuming that it is a result of her stay in the ToG.

 

The Finns make bargains with every person who enters the doorway. When Mat entered in Rhuidean, they said something like "wise that you ask to leave, foolish that you set no terms or price"

 

I wonder what else Moiraine wished for besides swapping strength in the power with Lanfear?

[Zyntras]

i'd like to have a Moiraine POV directly after entering the ToG; a catchup chapter for her life in the Tower.

[Ashlyn]

"5.“Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”"

 

Everything in ToG goes smoothly.

 

They return to Randland and go see Rand.

 

Moiraine follows Mat into the room where Rand is and

 

a) Rand screams "IT'S A TRAP!" and balefire's Moiraine.

b) Graendal zips past the window on a sho-jumper and balefire's Moiraine.

c) The above is all wrong and Moiraine is turned by 13x13

d) None of the above, and I'm an idiot.

 

Nice...

 

Anyhow, I can actually see Luckers being right (well, except for Leigh and Jason in the Tower, but I quite like Oluckers!). Personally I'm still hoping that Mat doesn't lose an eye. He's one of my favourite characters, and I want him to catch a break sometime! Gholam and crazy wife = more than enough. Why add disfigurement and balance problems into the mix?

[vasu619]

I have always wondered whether the finns are somehow 'sponsored' (for lack of a better word) by the DO. I know they're not connected to him directly and likely have nothing to do with him, but the prohibition on questions relating to him has always struck me as odd. Is it simply because the DO is not in the mortal dimension and cannot therefore be fore-read like the rest of the world? Or is it something more sinister? Coming back to the sponsoring thing, in KoD, Tuon berates Mat for believing in so many "superstitions" and asks something like,"Do you really believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's hill, foxes come and give you true answers to three questions and snakes..." (I'm really sorry I can't remember the quote, someone please help me) where Old Hob refers of course to "Caisen Hob", another name for the DO.

 

Anyway, coming to the point, we know that so many rumours around Randland actually have their basis in fact, and I wondered if this old Seanchan tale was not as corrupted as it seems. Who really has the guts (or the luck) to spend a night sleeping on Shayol Ghul? Maybe simply doing so can transport you to Finnland. Or it could simply mean that the Finns have some sort of connection to the place, and what connection to Shayol Ghul can lack a connection to the DO?

 

Therefore, it is my theory that the DO somehow provides the Finns with something essential to them, in return for them not answering questions related to him and immediately executing or doing something as nasty to the people who are foolish enough to ask.

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots? And why can he not simply bully them into obedience? Maybe because they are in a different dimension, he cannot affect them as strongly, and maybe traveling through the portal ter'angreal is as fatal for shadowspawn as traveling through an OP gateway. My theory is far from perfect, but it's just one of those things I like to think.

[OptimusPrime]

I have always wondered whether the finns are somehow 'sponsored' (for lack of a better word) by the DO. I know they're not connected to him directly and likely have nothing to do with him, but the prohibition on questions relating to him has always struck me as odd. Is it simply because the DO is not in the mortal dimension and cannot therefore be fore-read like the rest of the world? Or is it something more sinister? Coming back to the sponsoring thing, in KoD, Tuon berates Mat for believing in so many "superstitions" and asks something like,"Do you really believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's hill, foxes come and give you true answers to three questions and snakes..." (I'm really sorry I can't remember the quote, someone please help me) where Old Hob refers of course to "Caisen Hob", another name for the DO.

 

Anyway, coming to the point, we know that so many rumours around Randland actually have their basis in fact, and I wondered if this old Seanchan tale was not as corrupted as it seems. Who really has the guts (or the luck) to spend a night sleeping on Shayol Ghul? Maybe simply doing so can transport you to Finnland. Or it could simply mean that the Finns have some sort of connection to the place, and what connection to Shayol Ghul can lack a connection to the DO?

 

Therefore, it is my theory that the DO somehow provides the Finns with something essential to them, in return for them not answering questions related to him and immediately executing or doing something as nasty to the people who are foolish enough to ask.

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots? And why can he not simply bully them into obedience? Maybe because they are in a different dimension, he cannot affect them as strongly, and maybe traveling through the portal ter'angreal is as fatal for shadowspawn as traveling through an OP gateway. My theory is far from perfect, but it's just one of those things I like to think.

 

I like this theory

[Rcurran]

I had forgotten about that Old Hobs Hill reference, it's interesting. I find though that if something is left ambiguous such as rumors/myths/facts/legends then it comes down to the authors discretion whether certain plot options/avenues are explored and I don't see BS letting someone have a nap on SG with the time pressures of ending this series hanging over us. Especially as there are many many elements like this that could be used.

 

I do really like the ideas you've put forward, although I suspect we'll have finished up the books before we get a plot-integrated explanation of anything Finn related.

[nwash_10]

There has been speculation about Moiraine being stilled or burnt out when Mat rescues her from the ToG. I think that she will actually be stronger. I'm basing this on the fact that Cyndane is significantly weaker than what she was when she was Lanfear and assuming that it is a result of her stay in the ToG.

 

 

The Finns make bargains with every person who enters the doorway. When Mat entered in Rhuidean, they said something like "wise that you ask to leave, foolish that you set no terms or price"

I wonder what else Moiraine wished for besides swapping strength in the power with Lanfear?

 

 

I dontt get why everyone thinks that Mo switched power with Lanfear? Cyndane isn't that much weaker then Lanfear(who most likely had an angreal the while time). She's still the strongest female channeled alive. The only reason Alivia was stringer was because if all her angreal and ter'angreal loaned to her. Plus, Mo was way weaker then Cyndane is suggested as being. A power switch just doesn't make sense with the information we have.

 

On a side note, I think it's a fairly safe bet that Mo is burned/severed otherwise Lan would still be able to feel her. And we know the bond being severed with Lan isn't simply because she went through the doorway because it would have happened in Tear when she went through the first doorway.

[duncanwright]

I might be a bit behind here, but do we know if the tower can access both of the finns? Their dimensions/realities are described as quite different IIRC.

 

Also, I can't recall, but do we have any information (from Cyndane I guess) about which she or Moiraine were hanging out with?

[Ashaman Kovan]

How long has it actually been in Randland since Moiraine and Lanfear went through the Ter'Angreal??

[Sid]

How long has it actually been in Randland since Moiraine and Lanfear went through the Ter'Angreal??

around 7 1/2 months or so according to Stephen Cooper's timeline.

[Luckers]

I dontt get why everyone thinks that Mo switched power with Lanfear?

 

The short answer is 'romanticism'. People like the idea of Super Moiraine. But, like most romantic thoughts, its not realistic.

[Ashaman Kovan]

How long has it actually been in Randland since Moiraine and Lanfear went through the Ter'Angreal??

around 7 1/2 months or so according to Stephen Cooper's timeline.

 

Ahh, thanks.

[Red Hand Man]

i'd like to have a Moiraine POV directly after entering the ToG; a catchup chapter for her life in the Tower.

 

I think this might be possible.

 

How long has it been since Rand took Caemlyn? Perhaps a week in there would equal the time that elapsed since she fell in... anyone have anything to disprove this? It's unlikely, but I think it would be interesting. In the main series we have only 2 or 3 Moiraine PoVs right?

[Duskfire]

Why an eye though? Just seems... I dont know, random. I think it will be more symbolic then that. Mat has alot of connections to Odin, but they have either been altered or are more symbolic then anything else. I still think Perrin will have something to do with the rescue unknowingly (I posted a theory about it a couple of months ago) and while Olver may go, just seems unlikely he will get the chance to. Especially if Mat tells him no, to stay away.

[innloine]

In the main series we have only 2 or 3 Moiraine PoVs right?

 

Actually more around nine not counting New Spring.

[DocBean]

I like the theory.

It was actually one I put in the "ToM Prediction thread" a long time ago.

I have always thought Olver's love of the Snakes and Foxes game will come into play, and the rules we've been told about the game are important.

 

We know you're only allowed two pieces in the game, and you're up against 4 snakes and foxes.

4 entering + Moraine will give the advantage to the Humans.

 

Can't Wait!

 

I haven't read the reviews, but Olver entering the Tower is definitely going to scare some people, and could explain Leigh's review.

I think I will read them this afternoon.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Well, I don't think Olver will join in the ToG fun, simply because it is not only predictable, but almost expected of Olver. He's ten years old, and he knows someone who is going to play Snakes and Foxes for REAL. What ten-year-old boy could resist that? They'd have to tie Olver to a chair, then nail the chair onto Valan Luca's money chest to make sure he isn't coming.

 

We've been suspecting that Olver would come to the ToG, legitimately or not, since book 11 came out. Jason makes it sound like something we see, then say "I shoulda seen that coming". Olver in the ToG, would be more like #16 on Leigh's review (HAHAHAHAHA!!! TOTALLY CALLED IT!)

[Grape_Ape]

 

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots?

 

Wouldn't that be kind of like giving the trollocs a big bucket of the Colonel's Extra Crispy with the skin taken off? Sucks to be a trolloc if that's the case! Damnit, I'm hungry for KFC now.

 

Elci mentioned Mat asking to get out of Finnland. I don't have SR handy. Was one of his wishes to get out?

[Sid]

 

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots?

 

Wouldn't that be kind of like giving the trollocs a big bucket of the Colonel's Extra Crispy with the skin taken off? Sucks to be a trolloc if that's the case! Damnit, I'm hungry for KFC now.

 

Elci mentioned Mat asking to get out of Finnland. I don't have SR handy. Was one of his wishes to get out?

Here's the text. Yes, one of his requests was to leave.

“I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer - !”

“Done,” one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.

Done? What was done? What did he mean? “Burn your eyes,” he muttered.

“Burn your souls! You are as bad as Aes Sedai. Well, I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean, if you will not answer me. Open up a door, and let me - ”

“Done,” another man said, and one of the women echoed, “Done.”

and then

“Fool,” a woman said in a whispered growl, and others repeated it. Fool. Fool. Fool.

“Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms.”

“Yet fool not to first agree on price.”

“We will set the price.”

They spoke so quickly he could not tell which said what.

“What was asked will be given.”

“The price will be paid.”

“Burn you,” he shouted, “what are you talking - ”

Utter darkness closed around him. There was something around his throat. He could not breathe. Air. He could not. . . .