Seandar (Spoilers for Chap. 1)

[The Fisher King]

The "known murderer" openly ruling is probably some pissant member of the Blood who saw an opportunity to grab Seandar and took out perhaps a couple of potential contenders or military generals to cement his/her control over the capital. IIRC the news promised by Semi spoke of a dozen or more claimants to the throne. Not surprising that within a month or two there'd be one person to rise to the top of the pile in Seandar -- for now, at least. One that isn't respected and probably won't stay on the heights for long.

 

EDIT: Um, Fish...did you take your pills today? You know we love you. Now please put down the kaf.

 

Just trying to get with the TIMES, RM - LOL!!! ;-)

Am I doing it right?

 

In all seriousness...on the topic: I really do think it probably refers to either Suroth or Annath (Who used to be Semi.)

 

I don't think Demandred has had anything to do with that area because it was Semi's, and Forsaken don't poach other Chosen's carved out niches...now that Semi is toast, I still doubt Demi picked up the pieces there because he probably has his hands full. So, not refering to a Forsaken, probably.

 

JMO

 

 

Fish

[Random Man]

Suroth's now the property of the Deathwatch guards and Semi's dead, so I don't see how it could be either. AFAIK Suroth had no real chance to try to assert herself as the new empress before Tuon returned, and I don't think Semi was aiming at pretending to be the new ruler, else why would she scheme to get Suroth to take over the throne? If successful, Suroth would leave to try and deal with the rebellion and the Return would lose momentum. At least Semi might have gotten Tuon killed and throw the Return into chaos.

[Gor]

I think the murderer is simply the leader of one of the factions civil-warring over Seandar; one that happens to be in control of the capital at the moment. The fact that he is a faction leader in a war makes him a murderer, but he's probably being called one because he (or she) took credit for killing the empress and royal family.

[Impressive Bosom]

Now, on a non-serious note; it's Danerys Tagarian. She got tired of waiting to invade Westeros so she decided to invade Seanchan.

Hey, now there's a thought - think once he's done with WoT we could get Sanderson to take over the SoIaF novels? Even if we had to wait until he was done with his Way of Kings series as well, it would probably still come out quicker and with more reliability.

[TankSpill]

Hey, now there's a thought - think once he's done with WoT we could get Sanderson to take over the SoIaF novels? Even if we had to wait until he was done with his Way of Kings series as well, it would probably still come out quicker and with more reliability.

 

HAH! Unfortunately, I have a feeling that GRRM will be even stingier with the rights to his series than was RJ (even despite the fact that he's allowing a TV show to be made of it). I don't know why, but all the interviews I've ever read of his make him sound like quite the crab.

[MoonBeams]

"...The killing field surrounded thirteen fortresses, tall and cut entirely from unpolished black marble, their blocks left rough-hewn to give them a primal feeling of unformed strength. These were towers meant for war. By tradition they were unoccupied. How long that would last—how long tradition itself would be remembered in a continent in chaos—remained to be seen."

 

I don't think its coincidence that there are 13 tall black fortresses in Seanchan and the number of Forsaken (originally) was 13 (or 13 mydraal for that matter). Also the description of being "unpolished black marble", "rough-hewn" "primal feeling of unformed strength" sounds like something that would benefit the Dark One -- and why would they (by tradition) be unoccupied, especially if Seanchan is torn apart by war? Wouldn't some faction or the other occupy them? I think this is something significant....

[mossman87]

"...The killing field surrounded thirteen fortresses, tall and cut entirely from unpolished black marble, their blocks left rough-hewn to give them a primal feeling of unformed strength. These were towers meant for war. By tradition they were unoccupied. How long that would last—how long tradition itself would be remembered in a continent in chaos—remained to be seen."

 

I don't think its coincidence that there are 13 tall black fortresses in Seanchan and the number of Forsaken (originally) was 13 (or 13 mydraal for that matter). Also the description of being "unpolished black marble", "rough-hewn" "primal feeling of unformed strength" sounds like something that would benefit the Dark One -- and why would they (by tradition) be unoccupied, especially if Seanchan is torn apart by war? Wouldn't some faction or the other occupy them? I think this is something significant....

 

They're the Towers of Midnight, I'm sure there's some significance considering the book title. But who knows.

[DottieGirl]

Here's my $0.02: I doubt it is Demandred, as I can't see him messing around with what was Semirhage's territory. Perhaps he felt that, with her capture, that he could set up some proxy ruler, but as to his comments "My rule is secure. We will be ready," I highly doubt he meant the Seanchan. The murderer who is openly ruling may have secured Seandar, but there must still be a huge number of armies in the field, so the rule is not secure.

 

Obviously it is not Semi either, as she is dead. I was wondering if she set up a proxy DF on the throne, not unlike the offer she made to Suroth to set the High Lady up as Empress, may she live forever, in Randland. With some FS aid, a murderer could easily ascend to the Crystal Throne, especially when the same FS has single handedly wiped out the entire Imperial family except Tuon. As for the Shadow's motives for all of this, obviously chaos is a goal, but I think the more pertinent goal is to keep a unified Empire from sending reinforcements to fight against the Trolloc armies that are waiting to burst out of the Blight. The travel time for greatships would have been a moot point with Tuon's successful raid and the subsequent learning of Traveling, but since the Empire is in chaos, no such reinforcements can or will arrive to help her out.

 

I think that this plot point, while not a "throwaway" reference, will not be addressed in the main series of the books. As much as it pains me to say it, since Tuon and Mat are my favorite characters/couple and Seanchan my favorite culture, we simply have more important plot points to wrap up than this "murderer" thing. I think that it is laying the ground work for an outrigger novel, as others have suggested.

[fborch]

Personally, I believe Seandar is of no consequence. Tuon/mats seachan empire will remain in the westlands, ruling out of Ebou Dar. As the last battle is coming, seanchan and shara will be weakened enough by forsaken efforts that the armies of the shadow will gain control of those lands leaving the hopes of mankind in the westlands, pressured on all fronts.

[JakeBarnes]

I don't think that Demandred should be ruled out because 'that was Semi's thing'.

Asmodean and Lanfear worked together within the Waste, because they had a plan.

Aginor and Balthamel were together at the Eye, because they had a (bad, rushed) plan.

Aran'gar and Graendal were together at Natrin's Barrow, because they were plotting.

 

Demandred and Semirhage were working together from very early on, along with Mesaana.

How do we know that a part of that plan was not to kill the ruling family and send Semirhage across the ocean with the Return while Demandred picks up the pieces? That sounds like a damn good plan to me.

After Semirhage got captured in KOD's, one of the next Forsaken scenes involved Moridin asking Demandred for a progress report; Morididn:"We've lost the Return, but how are YOU doing?" Demandred: "It's all good, MY rule is secure".

 

Remember, in Wheel of Time rumors often hold veiled truths. Prediction: Demandred rules Seanchan.

[Duskfire]

I tend to agree. Semiharge watches over the Return, Demandred watches over the Seanchan continent. while I dont think thats neccessarily the case, the fact that Semiharge and Demandred have a truce means the idea should not be discounted. And the Seanchan continent is a large place. Demandred holding the throne and saying his rule is secure could just mean he has a few hundred thousand troops. The rest of the land may be in chaos and anarchy, but what does he care? Whoever this mysterious murderer is, they did enough to get on the throne in the first place, which goes against what Tuon seemed to be saying.

 

All I am saying is that it shouldnt be discounted, and is just as possible as Murandy or Shara or Borderlands. Each one has holes in it if you look hard enough. Thats why the Demandred mystery is still a mystery :P

[GB]

he could have place someone there to oversee the whole thing while he is in Murandy, borderlands.....

[Lisa Campbell]

OK lets say Demandred is in Murandy. He has an old alliance with Semirhage. He sees an opportunity.

 

And takes over Seanchan because you know that the return is not all of their forces and maybe there are 49+ contenders. He would probably see it as gaining forces (who worked for the light according to Rand's glass column experience) and that would be an 'extra/uber' vicory not unlike Graendal capturing beautiful and prestigeous slaves.

 

This would make his rule even more "secure" than a force recently built up from the education the Band of the Red Hand. Note that I don't discount that Demandred is already secure, just that I don't think he would pass up the opp (can we get that posted on the abbreviations page meaning opportunity which also makes me think what does IIRC mean? Can't find ref on relevant page can you please see to that too please admin team?)

[Gor]

OK lets say Demandred is in Murandy. He has an old alliance with Semirhage. He sees an opportunity.

 

And takes over Seanchan because you know that the return is not all of their forces and maybe there are 49+ contenders. He would probably see it as gaining forces (who worked for the light according to Rand's glass column experience) and that would be an 'extra/uber' vicory not unlike Graendal capturing beautiful and prestigeous slaves.

 

This would make his rule even more "secure" than a force recently built up from the education the Band of the Red Hand. Note that I don't discount that Demandred is already secure, just that I don't think he would pass up the opp (can we get that posted on the abbreviations page meaning opportunity which also makes me think what does IIRC mean? Can't find ref on relevant page can you please see to that too please admin team?)

 

IIRC = IF I Remember Correctly.

[Sentinel78]

On a slightly related note, someone made the (rather clever) observation that the fleet of Greatships cited are somewhat odd.

 

...

 

Given the Return should not all of Seanchan's ships be in Randland. I mean it took two hundred years to build the ships of the return, would not every one of them have been employed? And I found it interesting that the sails were described specifically as red. Seanchan sails are often mentioned, but always described as ribbed.

 

This could imply that the ships were not Seanchan...

 

I mentioned this earlier in the Apple's First thread here.

 

My main point was that the ships didn't seem like Seanchan ships, Randland doesn't have a spare navy for attacking Seanchan and Seanchan's own navy is with the Return, so the navy had to come from somewhere else. This mysterious navy coupled with the fact that a 50-faction civil war would not resolve itself in a matter of months means the entry of strong external forces.

 

Geographically, Shara makes the most sense, but Sharan aggression makes no sense unless they're being influenced by the Shadow (enter Demandred, either via proxy or personally).

 

There are some problems with this strategically. If Demandred controlled Shara, why wouldn't he attack the Rand on the main continent? He could just have let the civil war play itself out. Luckers pointed out that one possibility is to draw Tuon back to Seanchan. Maybe that's it. All I know is something really doesn't make sense with that navy showing up and the civil war just over instantly, unless Semirhage was lying about the civil war altogether.

[Cutlass]

On a slightly related note, someone made the (rather clever) observation that the fleet of Greatships cited are somewhat odd.

 

...

 

Given the Return should not all of Seanchan's ships be in Randland. I mean it took two hundred years to build the ships of the return, would not every one of them have been employed? And I found it interesting that the sails were described specifically as red. Seanchan sails are often mentioned, but always described as ribbed.

 

This could imply that the ships were not Seanchan...

 

I mentioned this earlier in the Apple's First thread here.

 

My main point was that the ships didn't seem like Seanchan ships, Randland doesn't have a spare navy for attacking Seanchan and Seanchan's own navy is with the Return, so the navy had to come from somewhere else. This mysterious navy coupled with the fact that a 50-faction civil war would not resolve itself in a matter of months means the entry of strong external forces.

 

Geographically, Shara makes the most sense, but Sharan aggression makes no sense unless they're being influenced by the Shadow (enter Demandred, either via proxy or personally).

 

There are some problems with this strategically. If Demandred controlled Shara, why wouldn't he attack the Rand on the main continent? He could just have let the civil war play itself out. Luckers pointed out that one possibility is to draw Tuon back to Seanchan. Maybe that's it. All I know is something really doesn't make sense with that navy showing up and the civil war just over instantly, unless Semirhage was lying about the civil war altogether.

 

...If demandred is using a Sharan army - attacking the westlands would have been a mistake (Rands abilities to "travel" armies would be a huge deterrant) attacing Seanchan logisticially makes much more sense. (bulk of army is overseas, royal family is slaughtered civil war impending) a smart general could gain control of the bulk of the nation very quickly with a few controlled and well placed attacks. That would not only solidify the rule in Shara, but add to his strength (recruiting in any conquered land) and blood red sails sounds like it would be very much a forsaken thing to do (hints at Moridin??)

 

This is all very hypothetical, assuming that Demandred is not just cooling his jets in the Blight watching over Moridins Trolloc army...Hmmm

[Rcurran]

It was upon reading the prologue I realised that Shara and Seanchan are relatively very very close. Why then would the Seanchan not attack Shara? If from fear of what happened to the other ships Artur sent then why where they so ready to send the vast majority of their strength over to Randland? Strategically it would have made much more sense to take Shara out then move onto Randland via lad routes over the spine of the world and by using their massive armada and flying raken.

 

I was immediately drawn to the idea of Shara when it said 'blood red sails'. Could it be army of dark side humans from the blight? Surely not.

 

Also what goes on in blight above Shara and above Seanchan, it's as if those people have nothing to worry about despite sharing a birder that is on Randland - where the impact of the blight shaped culture, history, flags and customs. Touching the hilts on their sword to show respect is the latest in thousands of examples about how living near the blight effects cultures. Not in Seanchan though. Or shara, but that's off topic. Why did the Seanchan underestimate Shara?

[Tom Sawyer]

It would seem fairly pointless for it to be a Sharan army run by Demandred. Why have Semirhage kill off the Imperial family and start a civil war just to have some other Forsaken come in and try to take the place over?

[Rcurran]

True, plus There err a couple of their leaders bring kept by Graemdal whom Rand will have now killed. So that'd be three forsakens plans either conflicting or coming together all at once.

[Crossroad]

What a huge problem for Rand, he will need to stabilize and make sure Fortuna is the leader of Seanchan by sending Matt to Seandar to put down civil war, remove the fake leader

 

Sounds like a pie in the sky hehehe LOL

[Rcurran]

If the plan wad to invade seanchan and there by remove some focus from the task at hand - tg - then it will likely succeed. Doesn't mean that it's an effective use of resources.

[Sentinel78]

Or shara, but that's off topic. Why did the Seanchan underestimate Shara?

 

We know nothing about Seanchan views on Shara. It is possible that Seanchan does not know Shara's relative location to itself --- is it common knowledge that the world is round in Seanchan?

 

Also, Luthair's descendants should have remembered that Hawkwing's other giant navy/army was sent to conquer Shara. This invading force was apparently wiped out by the Ayyad, but you would think that the Seanchan would have been more interested in Shara - if they actually knew it was there. Maybe they never sailed out that far West? It is likely that Western Seanchan was only merged into the Empire recently at the very end of the Consolidation (within the last 200 years or so).

 

We don't know much about Shara, but building fleets of Greatships takes large country-sized resources. Shara just seems the only option regarding who could physically produce those ships and move them to their current location in Seanchan.

[Crossroad]

If the plan wad to invade seanchan and there by remove some focus from the task at hand - tg - then it will likely succeed. Doesn't mean that it's an effective use of resources.

 

I was thinking a Black Ops Operation, Small Team of experts slip in grab the throne take out the fake leader and home before breakfast.

[Bastor]

There should be action on seandar lands in this one imho. I mean it is almost sure. Why else name the book "Towers of Midnight"? (aka Imfaral aka ...it was a prison tower? or a town? Im not sure...it is a bit north-ish off Seandar and it is close to where Rand travelled by accident back so long ago...I think...)

 

Anyway we will see Imfaral one way or another in this book seems pretty predetermined by the title itself.

 

One wild guess tho: The snakes and foxes are located on Seandar land and not some parallel world. Maybe locked up maybe mythical creatures or something of the sorts.

[Sharaman]

Western Seanchan is relatively close to Eastern Shara. It makes much more sense to directly cross the Aryth Ocean than to work some complex land-sea invasion that would involve crossing an entire unmapped continent by foot, after making a landing. Think of it this way, the Atlantic Ocean is roughly as broad as the North American continent. If you sail across the Atlantic, even at 5 Knots/ hr, you can cross in inside a month. If you try to cross from East Coast- West Coast without maps, cutting through unknown territory, well the wagon trains used to take whole lots longer.

All this is assuming the Seanchan even have an accurate idea that Shara is a continent-sized country that adjoins the Westlands. IIRC correctly, Luthair went to Seanchan before Hawkwing invaded Shara so, there's no reason why the Seanchan would know anything much about Shara and its dimensions at all.