Are there still BA

[DemandredFO]

I'm wondering this mostly because of Silviana who is keeper and was Mistress of Novices and also Leanne. I believe 3 keepers and 2 Mistress of Novice's have been Black; Duhara under Sierin, Alviarin under Elaida and then Sheriam. So I'm wondering if Leanne could be BA? Also there is Gitara, I realize she foretold Rands coming but that doesn't necessarily preclude her? As for Mistress's, we have Merean, who almost killed Moraine and Sheriam, I also wonder about Tiana. Thoughts?

[gambril]

The fact that Silviana stood up to Elaida for Egwene in front of the entire Hall leads me to be sure she isn't black, no black sister would have done this. Leanne has done nothing for us to suspect she's black and has done everything for us to believe she is on team light. I don't think Tarna is black either. If she was black I think she would have been able to think of other 'red sisters' who could be ordered and trusted with their secret mission of bonding males. The only 'black' channeler lurking the halls of the tower at this time is Mesaana I believe.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Havent Silviana and Leane re-sworn the oaths anyway?

 

that was the whole BA purge thing?

 

I dont them not being re-sworn, they did it after the tower was unified.

 

So unless somehow they learned to evade the oaths (which none of the Black sisters have been able to as of yet) I cant see them being BA.

 

Correct me if I missed something, but i thought it was pretty straight forward. They all swore they were not DF on the Oath Rod.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Egwene said that a majority of the Black sisters in the Tower escaped, but Mesaana is probably still there. And also I think 20 escaped from Egwene's group.

 

So yes, they're still lurking about...probably very disorganized right now, but not without leadership. Alviarin was not captured (was she?) so the Head of the Black Ajah is still alive. For now.

[Tenesmus]

I doubt they are disorganized... I bet they are hanging out with Taim at the Black Tower

[KefkaPalazzo]

Egwene said that a majority of the Black sisters in the Tower escaped, but Mesaana is probably still there. And also I think 20 escaped from Egwene's group.

 

So yes, they're still lurking about...probably very disorganized right now, but not without leadership. Alviarin was not captured (was she?) so the Head of the Black Ajah is still alive. For now.

 

 

I agree that Mesaana is still in the Tower. There is a way around the Oath Rod. We had tried to figure it out on the old forum, but never managed it. She likely knows the way around the oath. IMO, I think it is the distinction between "I am not a darkfriend" and "I am not in the black Ajah", how some people use one, and others use the other.

 

As far as the second statement, Alviarin got away, as well as many other BA council members. The question is how they found out. Everyone tried to keep the purge under wraps, but it still got out by the time Egwene got to the Tower.

[chuckievi]

I'm wondering this mostly because of Silviana who is keeper and was Mistress of Novices and also Leanne. I believe 3 keepers and 2 Mistress of Novice's have been Black; Duhara under Sierin, Alviarin under Elaida and then Sheriam. So I'm wondering if Leanne could be BA? Also there is Gitara, I realize she foretold Rands coming but that doesn't necessarily preclude her? As for Mistress's, we have Merean, who almost killed Moraine and Sheriam, I also wonder about Tiana. Thoughts?

 

 

The other aspect is that if Leanne had been black, it would have removed a large chunk of the reason to oust Suian. With a black keeper, they could have somewhat played her the same way Elaida was eventually worked over, just to a lesser extent.

[Kaznen]

Egwene said that a majority of the Black sisters in the Tower escaped, but Mesaana is probably still there. And also I think 20 escaped from Egwene's group.

 

So yes, they're still lurking about...probably very disorganized right now, but not without leadership. Alviarin was not captured (was she?) so the Head of the Black Ajah is still alive. For now.

The reason they didn't catch Mesaana with the oath rod trick is she probably isn't/wasn't masquerading as an AS. She wouldn't debase herself like that.

[Lynander]

To outdo the oath rod isn't that hard. It's all based on perception. Does Mesaana believe she is a darkfriend? since she got past the oath rod, I assume not. Does she consider herself Black Ajah? Again, probably not. She believes she is Chosen. Not Forsaken, not darkfriend, not Black Ajah. To catch her with the oath rod, they need to ask if she is one of the Chosen.

[CTKShadow]

Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.

Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.

 

I had thought it was accepted (based on the above quote from BS) that Mesanna beat the Oath Rod altogether, not merely the particular Oath about lying. Don't get me wrong, she could absolutely say "I am not Black Ajah" or even "I am not Aes Sedai" while bound to truth - but I feel the implication was she avoided being bound altogether.

[Byzantine279]

The Oath rod is a ter'angreal. Perhaps she had another one which made it useless on her? That would account for her being able to walk all over it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am thinking she either has a ter'angreal as someone said, knowledge of a weave that renders the effects of a ter'angreal null, or protection from the DO from ter'angreal effects.

 

Look what we have here.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 2 November 2005 - Mad Cao reporting

 

I asked RJ to expand on Semirhage's actions in Seanchan. He answered, in general terms, that she had engineered the complete eradication of the royal line (nothing new here). I then asked if Semirhage was somehow immune to the effects of the Crystal Throne, and he said that she certainly was.

 

So we look here, Semirhage also "beats" a ter'angreal.

 

I am thinking there is a weave that defeats ter'angreal. Mostly because in KoD, Semirhage's illusion is pierced by Cadsuane's ter'angreal. If she had a ter'angreal herself, it wouldnt have worked. Similarly, one could assume that the DO's protection from ter'angreal would have also worked.

 

So that leaves a weave of some kind. Semirhage said she was suprised that Cads. disrupted her illusion. Surrounded by the DR and various channelers, as the illusion broke, she would not have any time to weave the "protection". She acted on impulse and struck out.

 

So based on this, I think there is a weave that negates the effect of ter'angreal.

 

All Messaana would have to do was invert the weave while swearing on the binder and everything would be sweet.

[Byzantine279]

Seems like a likely theory, I wonder if the weave would be different for different Ter'angreal since they can work in completely different ways (and even with different powers).

[Khan]

I seem to remember a theory that Mesaana could simply wear gloves and cloak them with inverted weaves, possible?

[TheAngryDruid]

There are certainly many BA still about.

 

The 20+ who escaped the Rebel purge, and a majority of those escaped the Tower purge (50+). Plus we have a handful of Liandrin's group about, and those BA who were unaffiliated in the Tower/Rebel struggle and haven't re-sworn yet (around 20-30 or so if Verin is to believed.

 

Egwene thought there were 'some seventy' in camp. And she discovered 3 more. More than 50 were killed, and nearly 20 escaped. Best guess: 73 total = 54 killed = 19 escaped.

 

If a "majority" of Blacks escaped the Tower, 'some sixty'. I'd say anywhere from around 100-119 in the Tower.

 

Thus, some sixty + nearly two = 80 escapees + whatever was with the AS standing aside. If indeed there were 100 in the Tower + 70 with the rebels, that would leave around 33 or so with the others. So, over 100 BA still around.

[DemandredFO]

Listening to tDR again and just past Egwene's trip through the ter'angreal and even though there was a purge BA were still in the tower. I know this is not a reliable source, Egwene has the ageless face without the binder, Gildan is a Red, not the name Moghedien uses in Tarabon or wherever. I think either there's still BA in the tower(with Mesaana's help) or she goes to where the caught AS are and convinces some or all to switch sides. I think Eliada capable of that. Then uses them to make a play on Egwene.

[Lironah]

There are no more Black Ajah as such, as the name implies a secret Ajah hiding among the others. What we have now are a large collection of what have historically been known as Dreadlords.

[shadow walker]

So does anyone know how many of the sisters that Bonded ashaman are BA? and I wonder how many BA sisters bonded ashaman that were also friends of the dark? A couple circles of BA sisters and ashaman darkfriends could be a nightmare for the force of light.

[Zyntras]

hello, new here and i already have a stupid theory ^^

 

why do the BA sisters or mesaana for that matter defeat the "oath-rod"? it would be enough to defeat the oath itself.

 

i mean the " I will not speak one word that is not true"

 

cant a devious mind convince oneself that this oath means : "i will speak not one single word that is not true for itself" like => "Green is blue" => Green => is a 'true' (in this language existing) word as are 'is' and 'blue'

 

perhaps my mind is just playing crazy on me ^^

[Sharaman]

So does anyone know how many of the sisters that Bonded ashaman are BA? and I wonder how many BA sisters bonded ashaman that were also friends of the dark? A couple circles of BA sisters and ashaman darkfriends could be a nightmare for the force of light.

 

Alviarin made sure that no BA sisters were sent with Toveine (A CoS prologue) - so Logain's lot of bonded AS are not BA. We on't know for sure about Merise, Corelle, etc, but probably not BA since they weren't listed by Verin. About the Salidar embassy, we don't know for sure. Pevara's lot (just four) are unlikely.

[shadow walker]

So does anyone know how many of the sisters that Bonded ashaman are BA? and I wonder how many BA sisters bonded ashaman that were also friends of the dark? A couple circles of BA sisters and ashaman darkfriends could be a nightmare for the force of light.

 

Alviarin made sure that no BA sisters were sent with Toveine (A CoS prologue) - so Logain's lot of bonded AS are not BA. We on't know for sure about Merise, Corelle, etc, but probably not BA since they weren't listed by Verin. About the Salidar embassy, we don't know for sure. Pevara's lot (just four) are unlikely.

 

Hmmmm so we have 50 from the white tower, how many were in the salidar embassy 10? and pevara's lot which is 4 so a total of 64 Aes Sadai bonded to ashaman but I wonder if that is all of them? Were any of the Aes Sadai that were with Rand at Dumai's Wells bonded to ashaman? Plus there are Aes Sadai not in the tower and not in Salidar that are out and about how many bonds don't we know about yet?

[Sharaman]

So does anyone know how many of the sisters that Bonded ashaman are BA? and I wonder how many BA sisters bonded ashaman that were also friends of the dark? A couple circles of BA sisters and ashaman darkfriends could be a nightmare for the force of light.

 

Alviarin made sure that no BA sisters were sent with Toveine (A CoS prologue) - so Logain's lot of bonded AS are not BA. We on't know for sure about Merise, Corelle, etc, but probably not BA since they weren't listed by Verin. About the Salidar embassy, we don't know for sure. Pevara's lot (just four) are unlikely.

 

Hmmmm so we have 50 from the white tower, how many were in the salidar embassy 10? and pevara's lot which is 4 so a total of 64 Aes Sadai bonded to ashaman but I wonder if that is all of them? Were any of the Aes Sadai that were with Rand at Dumai's Wells bonded to ashaman? Plus there are Aes Sadai not in the tower and not in Salidar that are out and about how many bonds don't we know about yet?

 

The exact size of the Salidar embassy is not known. But Rand's offer was to allow 47 Ashaman to be bonded by Salidar sisters- so it could be that large. Three AM (Flinn, Narishma, Naeff) were already bonded by Cadsuane's crew (Daighan's Ashaman Eben died at the cleansing). This was to even out the WT women bonded by Logain's crew. Hence there must have been 50 sisters boned by AM. Plus Pevara's four.

Dumai's Wells didn't result in any bonding either way. We don't know about any others - it's unlikely.

[Lisa Campbell]

I agree that Mesaana is still in the Tower. There is a way around the Oath Rod. We had tried to figure it out on the old forum, but never managed it. She likely knows the way around the oath. IMO, I think it is the distinction between "I am not a darkfriend" and "I am not in the black Ajah", how some people use one, and others use the other.

 

As far as the second statement, Alviarin got away, as well as many other BA council members. The question is how they found out. Everyone tried to keep the purge under wraps, but it still got out by the time Egwene got to the Tower.

 

BTW Agree with all the maths just above, keep going please.

 

Possibly Mesaana leaked the news and enabled the BA to escape thinking herself safe in hiding. She somehow avoids the oaths but the real question here is how would she have known about the upcoming purge? If she can find a way around the oath rod then she could also be one of Pevara's "hunters". I know that they were all sworn to obey the Sitters but that could easily have been part of her punishment from Shadar Haran if he told her she had to. I'd say that that would be an ideal position for Mesaana as she would probably be trusted to an extent by Egwene for instigating the search for the BA and, would also be able to hear/manipulate/take part in a lot of Egwene's plans.

[Sharaman]

Too many people around in the Rebel camp when the purge happens -warders, random camp followers, etc. You can't nail down a single culprit. Even Travelling is not necessary - they are too close geographically. After that, some of the BA will know, one way or another.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah Sharaman that's the simple answer I know, I was more interested in the question that if Mesaana can avoid the oaths (if she swore/reswore them in the purge), that it could be possible that she was sworn as one of Pevara and Co.'s hunters (ferrets).