Super Spoiler PoV

[Duskfire]

Just a thought - never mind Rand, does anyone other than Graendal herself know that she's still alive? Basically, I'm talking Moridin / Shaidar Haran / the Dark One - would they have any way of knowing she's alive? I suppose if she tries to draw the TP, that's a give away, but otherwise, there's no guarantee the DO knows she's still out there. Opens up all kinds of opportunities.

 

I certainly don't see how Graendal would have to 'fess up for Aran'gar's death. She could just report that she made it out alive, A didn't - who would ever know she'd actually nailed A to the spot as a sacrificial lamb.

 

I imagine that the DO would know if one of his Chosen were to die. At leats one that is still linked to him. He probably wouldnt know the specific circumstances regarding say Aran`gars death without being told, but he would definetly know the instant that she died. And by extension SH and Moridin too.

[The Fisher King]

Ok, as requested, I am going to put here what I had erroneously posted elsewhere:

 

Luckers: My apologies if this isn't the exact spot for this, but, considering that my PM still doesn't work and the fact that obviously we can't start threads that are TOM-Related, I figured this was my best option.

 

There is something that has had me deeply concerned since reading the prologue. Its not plot-related or spoiler-related or something whose answer is a ''RAFO'' or somethings silly like that - its a 'technical' issue that I am worried about.

 

I have seen at least two other posters bring it up and I have seen it in at least two other threads. I've brought it up myself but so far noone seems to have any answers.

 

In the prologue, Graendal (a CHOSEN) refers to Shai'tan as the DARK ONE.

Not ''The Great Lord'' but the DARK ONE.

 

I am hoping against hope that it was simply an honest error on Brandon's part that went uncaught and will be corrected in the paperback version.

 

This is a Big Deal. Its not the same as Saidin and Saidar accidentaly being referred to backwards a couple of times in early books.

 

This is not a typo.

 

Its a Big Deal and as someone whose been on this ride since Day One, I would GREATLY appreciate someone giving Team Jordan a shout out about Graendal, a member of the Forsaken, referring *in their own head* to Shai'tan as the ''Dark One.''

 

Thats a BIG boo boo - and if it is simply a matter of human error I will be beyond thrilled.

 

Oversights and mistakes happen to all of us - but we need to know, I think.

 

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

And as promised, my two cents.

 

I don't know why it was that this didn't even register with me when I read it. Perhaps because tDO isn't intentionally disgraceful, it's just a neutral name. The actual name of the DO is taboo even to his followers (blasphemy or what-not).

 

It's like how religious people tend to refer to god as 'the Lord' or perhaps 'our Lord' (hinting at his being EVERYONE's true god), but it's rather common even for them to say 'god' from time to time. Muslims do call him 'god' (as far as my understanding of Arabic goes), and while devout Jews refrain from doing that (while speaking Hebrew, that is), they do refer to him by some equivalent name.

 

True, we've never heard a DF refer to him that way in his thoughts, never heard a Forsaken refer to him that way in ANY circumstances (I disregard Asmodean, since Rand pressed him to do so quite forcefully), but it's not like we've had a ton of Shadow-followers PoV's. Graendal is an opportunist. She betrayed the Light for her own petty needs and wants. She isn't a fanatic like Elan Morin, who truly believes in the cause. She just wants to rule everything and everyone on his behalf.

 

 

As an aside, tell me if you'd like for me to ask Brandon whether it was intentional via Twitter. Be warned, it was some time since he last responded to my Tweets.

[jemron]

Ok, as requested, I am going to put here what I had erroneously posted elsewhere:

 

Luckers: My apologies if this isn't the exact spot for this, but, considering that my PM still doesn't work and the fact that obviously we can't start threads that are TOM-Related, I figured this was my best option.

 

There is something that has had me deeply concerned since reading the prologue. Its not plot-related or spoiler-related or something whose answer is a ''RAFO'' or somethings silly like that - its a 'technical' issue that I am worried about.

 

I have seen at least two other posters bring it up and I have seen it in at least two other threads. I've brought it up myself but so far noone seems to have any answers.

 

In the prologue, Graendal (a CHOSEN) refers to Shai'tan as the DARK ONE.

Not ''The Great Lord'' but the DARK ONE.

 

I am hoping against hope that it was simply an honest error on Brandon's part that went uncaught and will be corrected in the paperback version.

 

This is a Big Deal. Its not the same as Saidin and Saidar accidentaly being referred to backwards a couple of times in early books.

 

This is not a typo.

 

Its a Big Deal and as someone whose been on this ride since Day One, I would GREATLY appreciate someone giving Team Jordan a shout out about Graendal, a member of the Forsaken, referring *in their own head* to Shai'tan as the ''Dark One.''

 

Thats a BIG boo boo - and if it is simply a matter of human error I will be beyond thrilled.

 

Oversights and mistakes happen to all of us - but we need to know, I think.

 

 

 

Fish

 

Fish, I brought this up earlier in this thread too. I intend to ask BWS this very question at the midnight release party.

[The Fisher King]

Yoniyo and Jemron:

 

Yoniyo: Thanks alot for keeping your promise and the input. I would definitely love it if you had a chance to follow up on this and do some digging.

 

Jemron: Excellent.

 

Ok, to me, there have been definite Rules (or maybe Standards and Practices is a better term) established through the first 12 books.

 

Examples:

 

Forsaken = ''Chosen'' to DF's.

 

Dark One = ''The Great Lord''

 

Aes Sedai = ''Those children playing at being Aes Sedai.''

 

Aiel = ''So-called Aiel.''

 

Etc, Etc.

 

Like Ive said, I have a gut feeling this was just a very, very understandable human error and I'd be thrilled to death to hear that that is indeed the case.

 

One point of concern: Brandon Sanderson has come off as about as OPPOSITE as disingenious as you can get, but, I was a bit perplexed that he made a big show of defending the ''Missing Redarm'' mystery of TGS insisting it was NOT a mistake and we would ''find out what happened to them in TOM.'' ... And now its reported that it was just a mistake after all.

 

Alot of people pounce on these things and criticize the little inconsistencies. I do not. I can't imagine trying to keep 10, 000 pages of details straight. But, I DO appreciate hearing when/if something IS a simple human error or oversight - for clarity's sake, if nothing else.

 

 

Fish

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I imagine that the DO would know if one of his Chosen were to die. At leats one that is still linked to him. He probably wouldnt know the specific circumstances regarding say Aran`gars death without being told, but he would definetly know the instant that she died. And by extension SH and Moridin too.

 

I think you're right about that. He is "Lord of the Grave" after all, and we got that description of a cocky Darkfriend who was dying (in KoD, I think) and was in a very good mood until the instant of his death. The DO seems to know when anyone dies--not just those with a Shadowy connection to him. So, he'd know that Graendal isn't dead.

[Sid]

Idly-but with a shiver, too-he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself. Immortality gone- he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet-and drawing the little of saidin he could was like drinking sewage.

Asmodean PoV, tFoH chapter 56 'Glowing Embers'

 

Consider Asmodean's postion at this point. There's either a tuft of grass with Rand or death(or worse) in the hands of the Shadow. Yet he still considers Shai'tan the Great Lord in his mind. Greandal is firmly in the shadow, even able to channel the True Power. There should be no 'Dark One' in her thoughts.

 

I believe this is sloppy writing due to how many 'Great Lords' would have been in the same paragraph, and he wanted to change it up and keep it less repetitive. Unfortunately it isn't really an option to do that in this case.

[The Fisher King]

Idly-but with a shiver, too-he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself. Immortality gone- he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet-and drawing the little of saidin he could was like drinking sewage.

Asmodean PoV, tFoH chapter 56 'Glowing Embers'

 

Consider Asmodean's postion at this point. There's either a tuft of grass with Rand or death(or worse) in the hands of the Shadow. Yet he still considers Shai'tan the Great Lord in his mind. Greandal is firmly in the shadow, even able to channel the True Power. There should be no 'Dark One' in her thoughts.

 

I believe this is sloppy writing due to how many 'Great Lords' would have been in the same paragraph, and he wanted to change it up and keep it less repetitive. Unfortunately it isn't really an option to do that in this case.

 

I can't add much to that. I agree with every word.

 

 

Fish

[Sharaman]

Have you ever heard an atheist take the name of God under stress?

May just be a verbal tic.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

I think you're right about that. He is "Lord of the Grave" after all, and we got that description of a cocky Darkfriend who was dying (in KoD, I think) and was in a very good mood until the instant of his death. The DO seems to know when anyone dies--not just those with a Shadowy connection to him. So, he'd know that Graendal isn't dead.

I don't recall this scene, anyone know where I can find it?

[yoniy0]

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

@BrandonSandrson Was it a mistake that a certain female Forsaken used "Dark One" instead of "Great Lord of the Dark" in her thoughts?

To which he replied (at least, I think he was replying to that Tweet. It's hard to tell, sometimes):

@jemron_mcb Yes. I tried very hard to catch those all, but if one slipped through, it was likely a mistake.

[nnokwoodeye]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

Balefire erases threads of objects it hits from before the time it hit them. It doesn't erase everything that crossed the path it travels before it was launched. Think of it as actual burning. It hits something, the thread catches 'fire', and the loose end left in the pattern 'burns back' a little bit. The more intense the fire is, the farther back it burns.

 

Mat and Avienda are alive because Rahvin didn't exist when he was supposed to kill them. By that logic, Graendal is suppose to be dead because the palace didn't exists when it was supposed to hold her.

 

For exemple, Nyneave was moved a few hundreds of feet behind because she was in the boat when it was balefired. So the boat and its content were moved. Graendal wasn't in her palace, so she didn't "move" (no the palace doesn't move but you get my point).

 

This kind of proves my point. Nyneave wasn't hit by balefire but her position was altered because of something in her past that wasn't there when it was suppose to. The fact that she was "in" the boat is irrelevant. It's not like the pattern is some kind of computer game that redefine people who board boats as part of the boat.

[mossman87]

This kind of proves my point. Nyneave wasn't hit by balefire but her position was altered because of something in her past that wasn't there when it was suppose to. The fact that she was "in" the boat is irrelevant. It's not like the pattern is some kind of computer game that redefine people who board boats as part of the boat.

 

I have nothing to add to this discussion but thought this comment was funny. It really is like a giant super computer that makes it's own story and inputs fixes as it sees fit, or tries to unless the DO messes it up. But no comment on the Graendal / fortress thing, balefire makes my head hurt and I try not to think of it.

 

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

[jemron]

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

@BrandonSandrson Was it a mistake that a certain female Forsaken used "Dark One" instead of "Great Lord of the Dark" in her thoughts?

To which he replied (at least, I think he was replying to that Tweet. It's hard to tell, sometimes):

@jemron_mcb Yes. I tried very hard to catch those all, but if one slipped through, it was likely a mistake.

 

Dangit! That was me who asked. I'm surprised by this answer, simply because she said it more than once AND she used "Light" as well.

 

I'm going to tweet him again and ask about those as well.

 

I have to admit, I'm bummed by his answers. This means that this speaks of sloppy editing, rather than an actual decent reason for her thinking this way.

[Sentinel78]

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

@BrandonSandrson Was it a mistake that a certain female Forsaken used "Dark One" instead of "Great Lord of the Dark" in her thoughts?

To which he replied (at least, I think he was replying to that Tweet. It's hard to tell, sometimes):

@jemron_mcb Yes. I tried very hard to catch those all, but if one slipped through, it was likely a mistake.

 

Dangit! That was me who asked. I'm surprised by this answer, simply because she said it more than once AND she used "Light" as well.

 

I'm going to tweet him again and ask about those as well.

 

I have to admit, I'm bummed by his answers. This means that this speaks of sloppy editing, rather than an actual decent reason for her thinking this way.

 

I can tolerate this kind of mistake. If he describes Perrin as having green eyes, Rand as embracing saidar or Aviendha as being short and fat I'll be worried.

[Chesus]

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

@BrandonSandrson Was it a mistake that a certain female Forsaken used "Dark One" instead of "Great Lord of the Dark" in her thoughts?

To which he replied (at least, I think he was replying to that Tweet. It's hard to tell, sometimes):

@jemron_mcb Yes. I tried very hard to catch those all, but if one slipped through, it was likely a mistake.

 

Dangit! That was me who asked. I'm surprised by this answer, simply because she said it more than once AND she used "Light" as well.

 

I'm going to tweet him again and ask about those as well.

 

I have to admit, I'm bummed by his answers. This means that this speaks of sloppy editing, rather than an actual decent reason for her thinking this way.

 

I think of the "Light" comment in the same way you might hear an athiest say "God D-----!" They don't believe in God yet I've seen them say it.

[yoniy0]

Dangit! That was me who asked.

I figured. Did I not give you credit for doing so?

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

[...]

[jemron]

Dangit! That was me who asked.

I figured. Did I not give you credit for doing so?

Fish, jemron asked him about it on Twitter.

[...]

 

Sorry, I wasn't upset because you didn't give me credit. I was upset by the answer BWS gave me. :-)

[The Fisher King]

WOW! - Thanks for the update, Yoniyo. And thanks for actually going all Scooby on the matter, Jemron!

 

I have so much respect for a guy like Brandon Sanderson who is perfectly willing to just say ''Oops! I made an honest mistake on that one.''

 

It helps keep things clear for the readers and lets us continue to know what stand-up folks we are dealing with in Team Jordan.

 

I've said before; I can't imagine how difficult Brandon's task is, even with all the help. He had 10, 000 pages to keep straight before he even wrote his first word! All in all I continue to feel he is doing a magnificent job and his willingness to communicate with the fans and admit easily understandable human errors is really admirable.

 

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

This kind of proves my point. Nyneave wasn't hit by balefire but her position was altered because of something in her past that wasn't there when it was suppose to. The fact that she was "in" the boat is irrelevant. It's not like the pattern is some kind of computer game that redefine people who board boats as part of the boat.

 

I have nothing to add to this discussion but thought this comment was funny. It really is like a giant super computer that makes it's own story and inputs fixes as it sees fit, or tries to unless the DO messes it up. But no comment on the Graendal / fortress thing, balefire makes my head hurt and I try not to think of it.

 

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

Jem: I've always felt that the WOT books (and this is NO offense intended to Harriet) were extremely poorly edited. I also understand that with the multitude of pages and detail involved in this series that perfection is simply not a realistic possibility. I hate speaking comparatively, but...there ya have it, lol.

 

 

Fish

[jdbond]

There something that bothers me about Graendal escape. Balefire destroy things before it hits them, so even though she escaped before the attack, she was still in it when the palace was vaporized. Logically she was suppose to find herself in the bottom of the crater with a broken neck

Balefire erases threads of objects it hits from before the time it hit them. It doesn't erase everything that crossed the path it travels before it was launched. Think of it as actual burning. It hits something, the thread catches 'fire', and the loose end left in the pattern 'burns back' a little bit. The more intense the fire is, the farther back it burns.

 

 

 

Mat and Avienda are alive because Rahvin didn't exist when he was supposed to kill them. By that logic, Graendal is suppose to be dead because the palace didn't exists when it was supposed to hold her.

 

Palace never actually "held" Grandel.

 

For exemple, Nyneave was moved a few hundreds of feet behind because she was in the boat when it was balefired. So the boat and its content were moved. Graendal wasn't in her palace, so she didn't "move" (no the palace doesn't move but you get my point).

 

This kind of proves my point. Nyneave wasn't hit by balefire but her position was altered because of something in her past that wasn't there when it was suppose to. The fact that she was "in" the boat is irrelevant. It's not like the pattern is some kind of computer game that redefine people who board boats as part of the boat.

 

 

Correction. Position of Boat was altered. Peace. If Rand had somehow managed to move the land on which palace was standing or balefired the ground itself, you have a point.

[DemandredFO]

I tolerate LOTR when that has much bigger editing mistakes, screwing up names of Elves houses and such, so I can tolerate WOT. After all WOT is 10x the size of LOTR and Rand seizing Saidar is funny.

[A2597]

I'm still kinda betting on Elayne biting it. Or, worse yet, getting turned to the shadow forcibly. Wonder what that would do to the kids.

[Rufae]

In rereading some backstory in preperation for ToM, I came across this nugget on Encycopedia-WoT inthe section for the EoTW: Prologue section.

 

He calls for Ilyena, his wife, not noticing her dead body on the ground. A man appears, "the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man."¹

 

If you follow the footnote:

 

 

Notes

1. At <A href="http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/guide/index.html#3">signings Robert Jordan confirmed that this is Traveling using the True Power.

 

Yet in the Graendal POV in the ToM Prologue, Graendal used the TP to travel and it used a gateway like she would with Saidar. Is this a mistake on BS part? Or something else?

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

One question about the nature of balefire. If it touches a weave, just to pick an example out of the air, say a gateway wouldn't the gateway or any weave be destroyed to the moment before its creation. The reason i ask is because if Rand's Balefire hit Graendal's gateway before she closed it, then wouldn't it be logical to assume she never made it and thus never escaped?

 

It was coming. Graendal leaped for the gateway, rolling through it, tumbling and ripping her dress on a branch. A blinding light rose behind her. She struggled to dismiss the gateway, and caught one glimpse of the horrified Aran‟gar before everything behind was consumed in beautiful, pure whiteness.

The gateway vanished, leaving Graendal in darkness.

 

from the passage above it seems like everything was consumed by the balefire and then she let her gateway close. Is this an error or am I failing to understand the nature of balefire?