Super Spoiler PoV

[jdbond]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

 

So Amrylin of white tower is going to be one of the three women?

Yep, that pretty well sums it up. At least that's my theory.

 

That is something we can all agree on.

[Ryan Reich]

The people (person?) who are upset about the fact that Graendal survived by using a new weave of the True Power, which we didn't know she could channel, are in my opinion overlooking the fact that this is not what it seems. First of all, others had previously theorized that she survived by using an eavesdropping weave; she might even have simply walked out of the castle, invisible and inverted, to follow Ramshalan. The Power is a pretty godlike power, and just because the TP has some even niftier construction that is perfectly suited to the occasion doesn't mean that ordinary saidar couldn't have done the same thing in a different way. That is, after all, the principle: the TP is not "stronger" than the OP, but simply different.

 

Graendal's display was a showcase, either as a minor bit of worldbuilding to fill out the old, known fact that the Dark One uses animal spies (also observed many times in this thread) or in order to set it up for another use in the future. If you think this is bad writing, consider how your reaction would vary if she had thought to herself "she could have followed Ramshalan, made invisible by inverted weaves, but it risked less to use the dove as a scout". So she does the same thing, but with a reason. If the lack of an explicit reason bothers you, please choose one of the many that are available.

 

Likewise, there is no reason to resent her being suddenly revealed to have access to the True Power. It has been six books now since Moridin became the boss and has been repeatedly said to have exclusive access to the TP; it's been said often enough that it practically screams to be taken as foreshadowing of the opposite. See, Moridin has access because he has the Dark One's favor, and conveniently, for about four books now we have seen Graendal rise in his favor; even in the last two books we have seen her openly thinking to herself about supplanting him. Every now and then she gets a little more praise or privilege. All this talk of Moridin being the only one who can channel the TP is just to say: hey, watch out for who can use this! And all this talk of Graendal becoming the class pet is just to say: hey, she's going places! There isn't really any surprise here. Again, I believe this scene is a showcase for things to come (it is, after all, a prologue).

[dwn]

(BTW, well stated, Ryan)

 

I too feel the situation is a bit forced, mostly because it's the result of a number of things working perfectly in Graendal's favour, even though any given one seems reasonable. I also think we, as readers, bought into Rand's Grand Scheme To Outsmart Graendal, and seeing it fail is a bit of a letdown.

 

(I think a less blunt way to write the scene would have been to have Graendal simply absent from the fortress. Aran'gar and Delana are there chilling when Rand's messenger shows up, and Aran'gar decides to "play along" and have Delana use Compulsion on the messenger and send him back. Then splat. The huge downside is that we wouldn't get any insight into Graendal's character or future plans.)

 

I'd say Graendal's use of the TP makes sense. She has just used it to show off a bit for Aran'gar, and I bet that due to it's addictive qualities she was subconsciously looking for an excuse to use it again. Also, using the dove was just nifty.

 

The biggest question in my mind is if we saw anything in the second half of TGS (after her 'death') that is suggestive of Graendal's plans.

 

-- dwn

[b3arz3rg3r]

The biggest question in my mind is if we saw anything in the second half of TGS (after her 'death') that is suggestive of Graendal's plans.

 

I don't think so. Graendal made a sacrifice of Aran'gar just to make things easier for herself. The DO will be well aware of that and the price Graendal will have to pay will be steep. She knows that if she doesn't handle things correctly she will become Moridin's next toy. To spare herself that fate I think she'll propose a momentous scheme at great personal risk which would be of enormous gain for the DO. Nothing in TGS seems to be indicative of such a large scale move on her part.

[Ghalleon]

Just a thought regarding Graendal's limited TP access:

 

I've always assumed that to use the TP, the user had to have permission from the DO to use/access it, tacit or otherwise. From reading the prologue and the various posts in here, it seems that Graendal was granted this "honour" by Moridin, and not directly by the Dark One, thus the limited access. Perhaps one of a Naeblis' privilege is the doling out of TP, but in so doing he must "share" his own conduit to the TP, hence the throttling of usage. ( Hopefully I got my point across, typing at 4 am isn't my most lucid state).

 

Regarding Graendal and any indications of said plans in TGS - that's a good point, now I have to go and re-read the parts after Rand balefires the castle, I think she's the type of planner who focuses more on cumulative little details that ends in a flourish. She's never been to go for the kill asap, nor is she one for open confrontation, so I think that's the best place to look at. The timeline is a bit skewed, but again it's the prologue, so we're not quite sure where exactly the first chapter will pick up.

 

I fervently agree with a couple of posters who mentioned that it's about freaking time the Chosen act like they're badass. Personally, I feel they've lost a lot of their mystique ( ok given it's been 12.5 books, but still), they just seem to be outmatched ever since they lost that free-for-all when Rand cleansed saidin. More forsaken blowing up people's hands please.

[Maji]

I'm officially taking a break from Dragonmount because all this Brandon-bashing is getting on my nerves. Chow

 

First of all, let me say I agree with you. Personally, I think Brandon has done a much better job than I expected going into this. And for the most part, even when some of the stuff felt different (i.e. the "Legends" chapter from TGS) it was still fun to read. But for future reference, it's "Ciao" not "Chow." Then again, with all the "Woofing" going on, maybe you had it in your mind it was time to feed the dog.

 

Now as for Graendal's target, I've long been worried that Min could bite the dust before this is over. The one argument against this is Nicola's fortelling, but while "the lion sword" and "the dedicated spear" almost certainly refer to Elayne and Aviendha, "she who sees beyond" could very well be Egwene, not Min. Throw into that equation the "three on a boat" and I'm even more inclined to go with Egwene. Remember the time she skimmed Lan toward Ebu Dar? That chapter went out of its way to have her explain how everyone had their own preferred platform for skimming. Egwene's was referred to first as a "ferry" and then as a "barge." Call it either one, it's a boat. So I'm thinking Egwene will be taking Elayne, Aviendha, and Rand/Rand's body (depending on how you interpret "he who is dead yet lives") somewhere by skimming. And I'm scared that may mean Min is dead by that point. Of course, I think she has to live long enough to figure out just what Rand is supposed to do at the last battle first, so maybe she'll survive until the next book. And that leads to my whole "a treasure as great as the Bowl (of the Winds)" from the wise one dreamwalkers was the little librarian ter'angreal Aviendha figured out to use in "A Different Skill" from KoD that will help Min in this, but that's a whole other story. Well, other than Min having to live long enough to get to that point. I think sometime after she does this, someone's going to kill her, and Graendal would seem the most likely suspect after reading this prologue.

 

I like this theory and hope you're right. Min has bit on my nerves a bit after she went to Cadsuane, even if she had good intentions. I've never really liked Cadsuane and keep hoping one of the Forsaken blows her to bits. I guess Min is rubbing off negatively from association :x To my credit, I like her more than Elayne still! xD

[aunt_pol]

I might be a bit thick, but how, exactly, does Graendal know so much about Nynaeve? That went right over my head. And God, a confrontation between those two would be awesome.

[aunt_pol]

Okay might be dense here but...

Isnt Shara in the east and it was during the day in Araf Doman so shouldn't it be later in the day in Shara but early in Seanchan???

 

Now Ted, Shara's not small, it's far away.

 

 

Srsly, we don't, IIRC, have anything to suggest she'd flee to Seanchan, but we know she has interests in Shara. And it is far enough away to be a good lock of hours ahead/behind/whatever.

[Cutlass]

Grendals POV was absolutly plausible - considering all of the other twists and turns in the past.

 

I personally beleived that she was dead, and was surprized to see that she wasn't. Her ability to touch the TP wasn't a real surprize - theoreticially the series is going to end in the next 2 books and its time for a few of the forsaken to step up. The weave to use the dove as a spy adds a little light on how the DO (and Ishy early on in the series) used the ravens and rats to stay in the loop. Using Delanna and Arangar as her dupes for the compulsoin also sounds like something she would do (the whole paranoia thing about Nyn reading her weaves). I think she will be active in ToM and in MoL (I'm figuring her to be the one that wastes Cadsuane) but I think it more then likley she will be one of the "survivors of the shadow" to wreak havok after TG.

 

Perrins POV - I'm with the majority - Stop your friggin whinning!! Please

 

Every time I see the light on the horizon for him, the battle finishes and her turns back into "oh-poor-me" I have to make decisions I don't like whine whine whine. He has acheived great success, and has hit a few pitfalls - but nothing even close to what Rand (and half the other characters in the book) have dealt with. He has the potential to be such a great story arc - the wolf thing is great, bringing armies togeather from Ghealdan and Western Andor, marring into Saldaea nobility and creating alliances with the Seanchan he has acomplished more then enough to give him a sense of satisfaction. Whining about Berelain was getting old in TDR, get over it.

 

Galad's POV - I am actually starting to like Galad. I think him taking charge of the White Cloaks is an interesting development - and I think thta Bawler as well as Morgase will play a HUGE rold in convincing Perrin to help him. I also think that Perrins ties with the Seanchan will be a major part of how the rescue goes (its getting too close to TG for there to be a lot of battles in the south - and the priority will be on making their way to the blight to stop the trolloc invasion) this could be the merging of west/south that Rand needs to survive the LB....

 

The Borderland POV - I'm still stuck on the timelines there. Does that happen weeks before Rands revalations on DM? or is that happing after? I understand that the 3 books were supposed to be written as one, but the timeline is getting hard to follow. Otherwise its the little sceans like that inside of the story that help bring everything togeather - I know we'll see Malenarin or his son again and I can't wait.

 

Fain... wow what can I say. He's shaping up to be a much more interesting character then I was expecting. There is definatly soemthing significant aboth the reference to "red blood on black rocks" ... possibly a connection to Ishy/Moridin and Rand via the weave that was put on him the TEotW to hound Rand.

 

M.

[sleepinghour]

I might be a bit thick, but how, exactly, does Graendal know so much about Nynaeve? That went right over my head. And God, a confrontation between those two would be awesome.

 

I'm guessing Delana told Graendal about Nynaeve, which explains Graendal's wariness of Nynaeve's ability with Compulsion. Nynaeve was able to heal Stilling which even the AoL AS couldn't...what if she discovered something new about Compulsion as well? They're closely linked talents, so Nynaeve probably has as much skill with Compulsion as Graendal herself.

 

Nynaeve might not be able to outsmart Graendal, but I can see her coming up with a battle tactic that's just too crazy for Graendal to anticipate. In Nynaeve's own words: "I don't have to make sense!"

[aunt_pol]

 

Perrins POV - He has acheived great success, and has hit a few pitfalls - but nothing even close to what Rand (and half the other characters in the book) have dealt with.

 

 

Em, His entire family was eaten by Trollocs.

 

Elayne's the only other that lost close family, and she'll soon discover her mother's alive.

I'm not sayin' he's not a moany whingebag, but he does have some small cause.

[aunt_pol]

I might be a bit thick, but how, exactly, does Graendal know so much about Nynaeve? That went right over my head. And God, a confrontation between those two would be awesome.

 

I'm guessing Delana told Graendal about Nynaeve, which explains Graendal's wariness of Nynaeve's ability with Compulsion. Nynaeve was able to heal Stilling which even the AoL AS couldn't...what if she discovered something new about Compulsion as well? They're closely linked talents, so Nynaeve probably has as much skill with Compulsion as Graendal herself.

 

Nynaeve might not be able to outsmart Graendal, but I can see her coming up with a battle tactic that's just too crazy for Graendal to anticipate. In Nynaeve's own words: "I don't have to make sense!"

 

True, I'd say Graendal would have made sure to do some diggin' for info alright.

Yeah, Nyn would come up with somethin fun...

[subwoofer]

I might be a bit thick, but how, exactly, does Graendal know so much about Nynaeve? That went right over my head. And God, a confrontation between those two would be awesome.

 

I'm guessing Delana told Graendal about Nynaeve, which explains Graendal's wariness of Nynaeve's ability with Compulsion. Nynaeve was able to heal Stilling which even the AoL AS couldn't...what if she discovered something new about Compulsion as well? They're closely linked talents, so Nynaeve probably has as much skill with Compulsion as Graendal herself.

 

Nynaeve might not be able to outsmart Graendal, but I can see her coming up with a battle tactic that's just too crazy for Graendal to anticipate. In Nynaeve's own words: "I don't have to make sense!"

 

True, I'd say Graendal would have made sure to do some diggin' for info alright.

Yeah, Nyn would come up with somethin fun...

 

I dunno, I think Moggy has mentioned something in passing at the last "Forsaken Summit" about Nyneave's skills. Or maybe it was Aran'gar as he was disguised as Halima. Graendal did refer to Nynaeve as being "the woman gifted at healing". Something like that has to come from direct observation by one of the Forsaken.

 

Woof™.

[aunt_pol]

Did Halima cross paths with Nyn much at all? I can't see Moggy talkin' much about Nyn... Actually does make most sense for Graendal to fish from Delana and Halima, just wondering now what she would've got. Delana prob would've had the most observation time in Salidar.

[Vayna]

I don't think Halima/Aran'gar really needed face time with Nynaeve to learn alot about her. She's not that hard to read, and I am sure that Delana was not the only Black Ajah member with the SAS that Halima/Aran'gar had access to, to mine for information as needed. Between the two of them, I feel there is plenty of opportunity for Graendal to get the info she wanted.

[subwoofer]

Well, I'll have to go back and dig through the books but at some point Nynaeve was in Salidar, as was Halima. I am not sure if Halima was around when Nynaeve made her breakthrough at first Healing Logain and then Suian but the possibility is definitely there. Delana was probably around too. As Graendal does make repeated reference to Nynaeve, the facts had to come from those close to her now.

 

Woof™.

[Sid]

Well, I'll have to go back and dig through the books but at some point Nynaeve was in Salidar, as was Halima. I am not sure if Halima was around when Nynaeve made her breakthrough at first Healing Logain and then Suian but the possibility is definitely there. Delana was probably around too. As Graendal does make repeated reference to Nynaeve, the facts had to come from those close to her now.

 

Woof™.

Halima arrived the morning after Nyneave healed Logain. She had Delana (a Sitter), another Blue Sitter that I can't remember her name, and Sheriam (the Keeper and leader before Egwene showed up) to let her know all about what they knew. Forsaken were unaware that healing a severing was possible before that, so I'm sure they took note that Nyneave did such a thing. Moridin even mentioned it in his TPoD PoV in Ebou Dar.

 

As for Min, not many people know what she can do. Perhaps a DF amongst the Aiel could tip the Forsaken off about it, but otherwise all they know is she is Rand's girlfriend. In and of itself, that is enough to be in incredible danger.

[TheAngryDruid]

Sorry, late to the party, didn't have a lot of time to read (and discuss) earlier in the week.

 

First, I really liked the scene, and credit to Luckers, who nailed it.

 

Second, a general comment from earlier in the thread criticized BS and longed for RJ. Fair play, but inaccurate here. We do know that some of the Prologue was in fact written by RG (via the whole dead mule thing). So if you hated the entire Prologue.....

 

Tecond, I find it interesting that when Graendal was assumed dead, there were howls about how all the Forsaken weren't putting up enough of a fight. Then, when one escapes, it's all too convenient and forced.

 

I'm firmly in the camp that didn't find much of her survival forced, or lucky. But I don't want to those who feel differently to feel like they are being attacked, that's the whole point of discussion, after all.

 

I found it extremely plausible that: 1) Delana and Aran'gar were around (we know of their alliance and we know Delana fled with Aran'gar); 2) That Delana is fairly good at Compulsion (look who she hangs out with, they had to teach her something, or she saw it); 3) That Graendal used a proxy (she always does).

 

The whole seeing through the eyes of a creature thing has been mentioned throughout the books (if not directly), so it wasn't that big a leap for me, and it made me think of Beastmaster, so that's all good (now, if only someone sees through the eyes of a ferret later!)

 

She didn't luck into seeing him crank up the flows, that was pure forethought on her part. And "just in the nick of time." Well, it's not like Rand was building the flows up for 10 minutes, was he? Nor was anything she did regarding not wanting to weave her flows strange, nor unexplained. She wanted to lay a false trail (male and female weaves) and not risk anything being "read" from her weaves by Nynaeve (though I don't think Nynaeve has the ability, yet).

 

Plus, he whole move at the end would have been for naught if she had placed the weaves. Although she doesn't think Rand will attack because he won't hurt women, she isn't sure (she tries to flee and isn't sure she's safe). So by NOT putting her weaves on and forcing Aran'gar/Delana to do it, she leaves herself the option of sacrificing her pieces if (in the unlikely event) she has to sacrifice them now (or possibly later), then Rand will think she is dead when she isn't. Now, it probably came to fruition a LOT faster than she thought, but still a wise move.

 

If there were some negatives, how easily Aran'gar agreed to put the Compulsion there was a bit lame, but so has Balthamel been.

 

Lastly, regarding the other Gateway, if is at evening and travels to a place where it is early morning, one can go East(much earlier in the same day) OR west (morning on the next day). So I'd say Shara or Seanchan would still be on the table.

[Jong]

I think that the forsaken to this point with a few exceptions -- Lanfear -- have been mostly pushovers. Of course Sammael might have killed Rand if he didn't have some help.

 

I am glad to see that at least one of the forsaken seems to have some brains. Rand's plan was brilliant. I think graendal got a bit lucky in that Arangar and Delana were present. But if they weren't there she could have just fled anyway. But also she was prepared with the doves and clearly does not underestimate Rand or Nynaeve which is smart. And she was smart enough to figure out what was going on and escape.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Perrins POV - He has acheived great success, and has hit a few pitfalls - but nothing even close to what Rand (and half the other characters in the book) have dealt with.

 

 

Em, His entire family was eaten by Trollocs.

 

Elayne's the only other that lost close family, and she'll soon discover her mother's alive.

I'm not sayin' he's not a moany whingebag, but he does have some small cause.

Fain's and his whitecloaks killed them.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think that the forsaken to this point with a few exceptions -- Lanfear -- have been mostly pushovers. Of course Sammael might have killed Rand if he didn't have some help.

 

I am glad to see that at least one of the forsaken seems to have some brains. Rand's plan was brilliant. I think graendal got a bit lucky in that Arangar and Delana were present. But if they weren't there she could have just fled anyway. But also she was prepared with the doves and clearly does not underestimate Rand or Nynaeve which is smart. And she was smart enough to figure out what was going on and escape.

Things the Forsaken and their BA minions have done.

 

Destroy the Seanchan empire and cause a continent wide 50 sided civil war. Hell, if you believe what Ishy says he's behind the whole Seanchan invasion and their doctored prophecies.

Cause the Shaido War.

Overthrew the legitimate governments of Andor, Tar Valon, Arad Doman, Ghealdan, Tear and Illian inciting civil war in the first four.

Kidnap the puppet rulers of Shara and cause civil war there.

 

Given their order was to cause chaos, I think they did ok.

[billegoat]

I think that the forsaken to this point with a few exceptions -- Lanfear -- have been mostly pushovers. Of course Sammael might have killed Rand if he didn't have some help.

 

I am glad to see that at least one of the forsaken seems to have some brains. Rand's plan was brilliant. I think graendal got a bit lucky in that Arangar and Delana were present. But if they weren't there she could have just fled anyway. But also she was prepared with the doves and clearly does not underestimate Rand or Nynaeve which is smart. And she was smart enough to figure out what was going on and escape.

Things the Forsaken and their BA minions have done.

 

Destroy the Seanchan empire and cause a continent wide 50 sided civil war. Hell, if you believe what Ishy says he's behind the whole Seanchan invasion and their doctored prophecies.

Cause the Shaido War.

Overthrew the legitimate governments of Andor, Tar Valon, Arad Doman, Ghealdan, Tear and Illian inciting civil war in the first four.

Kidnap the puppet rulers of Shara and cause civil war there.

 

Given their order was to cause chaos, I think they did ok.

 

Rahvin had Rand dead to rights as well, he was standing there watching his weave polymorph helpless Rand into a dog when he got sneak-attacked and distracted by Nynaeve, giving rand the opening he needed. Semi successfully put the domination TA on him and would have forced him to kill Min with his own hands had he not surprisingly drawn on the TP to waste her. By this point none of the remaining forsaken want to attack the DR directly since he always ta'verens his way to survival. instead the plan is to strike at his support in the hopes that when the last battle comes he will be worn down and so full of despair that he could be coerced to join the shadow. rand needs to hold on to that small bit of light left amongst the proverbial (and literal) clouds in the sky.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Is there the possibility that the guy who name-dropped Natrin's Barrow was planted there?

 

For all the talk about how unknown the place was, having a servant clearly give the name of Graendal's hidey-hole seems too convenient for Rand. And it's not like anyone consistently refers to their home by name, either. I think the whole thing was a setup to stop Rand from hunting her, and get rid of a rival. It makes perfect sense for Greandal to do that. (as much as I wanted Narishma and Flinn to wreak their unholy vengeance on Aran'gar for Hopwil) Every one of her POVs show her desire to be the last one standing, even ESPECIALLY if she has to knock the others over herself.

 

Also, Graendal has completely mastered Compulsion. Am I really supposed to buy that Nynaeve, who has seen (read: been on the business end of) Compulsion exactly one time is able to undo it enough to get the one piece of information that could get Greandal killed? I doubt it.

[Jemlin]

I might be a bit thick, but how, exactly, does Graendal know so much about Nynaeve? That went right over my head. And God, a confrontation between those two would be awesome.

 

I'm guessing Delana told Graendal about Nynaeve, which explains Graendal's wariness of Nynaeve's ability with Compulsion. Nynaeve was able to heal Stilling which even the AoL AS couldn't...what if she discovered something new about Compulsion as well? They're closely linked talents, so Nynaeve probably has as much skill with Compulsion as Graendal herself.

 

Nynaeve might not be able to outsmart Graendal, but I can see her coming up with a battle tactic that's just too crazy for Graendal to anticipate. In Nynaeve's own words: "I don't have to make sense!"

 

Nynaeve doesn't have the same skill with Compulsion that Graendal does. First off, Graendal is making an assumption that Nyn knows how to "read" the Compulsion weaves. Something we have not heard meantioned before. Nynaeve has seen a weave or two fo Compulsion, but certainly has not seen all of the intricate ways it can be woven. Additionally, although she "healed" a man of Compulsion, she didn't read it. She gleamed nothing from the weaves except that they were complex. When she Delved the guy that Delana had layed Compulsion on, she couldn't tell who did it, nor could she determine that a man had also laid down weaves. All she could gleam was that it was very complex and seemed different from before. That's it.

 

So, basically, Graendal is making a paranoid assumption. However, its a smart assumption, but unfortunately for Nynaeve, it isn't true. =[ (yet)

[Suttree]

Is there the possibility that the guy who name-dropped Natrin's Barrow was planted there?

 

For all the talk about how unknown the place was, having a servant clearly give the name of Graendal's hidey-hole seems too convenient for Rand. And it's not like anyone consistently refers to their home by name, either. I think the whole thing was a setup to stop Rand from hunting her, and get rid of a rival. It makes perfect sense for Greandal to do that. (as much as I wanted Narishma and Flinn to wreak their unholy vengeance on Aran'gar for Hopwil) Every one of her POVs show her desire to be the last one standing, even ESPECIALLY if she has to knock the others over herself.

 

Also, Graendal has completely mastered Compulsion. Am I really supposed to buy that Nynaeve, who has seen (read: been on the business end of) Compulsion exactly one time is able to undo it enough to get the one piece of information that could get Greandal killed? I doubt it.

 

Her prologue POV pretty much rules out it being a set up. Graendal also expressed alarm that someone in Rand's party(Nynaeve) was that skilled with reading Compulsion. It makes perfect sense based on her intuitive skill with healing.