Elaida calling Egwene a Darkfriend

[DaughterOfNight]

 

We all know that AS can't lie, blah blah blah... and we know that AS can speak a lie if they believe it to be truth.

 

It still just makes me curious about Elaida calling Egwene a DF during the dinner disaster so it obviously means that she sees Egwene as a true DF.  But why?  Sure, Elaida really really does not like this girl but Egwene hasn't really given her a reason to think her of the shadow, you know?

 

And then I think about Mesaana.  Is there a hint in that Elaida/Egwene/name calling scene that would a apply to Mesanna and the Oath?

[Mr. Micawber]

Elaida. Is. Crazy.

 

I could express it more forcefully, but I don't remember what the policy is on swearing.

[Duskfire]

Yeah to Elaida what she was doing was completely right and everyone else was in the wrong. She was going to be the svaior of the world, she was going to rein in the Dragon Reborn, etc etc. To her Egwene is someone who is trying to undermine her position, not to mention leading the rebel faction. Its not a huge stretch that in Elaidas deluded mind Egwene is a darkfriend. If you believe something to be the truth, then as far as the oaths are concerned thats the truth.

 

Its sort of like how some whitecloaks believe that all Aes Sedai are darkfriends. They are completely wrong of course, but if they had to swear on the Oath Rod (hypothetically here) then its not as if they would no longer be able to speak out against Aes Sedai.

 

The Oaths are essentially just a matter of perception.

[Luckers]

It's not the first time Elaida's convinced herself absolutely of something. Alviarin even comments on it.

 

Anyone who knew her saw her intelligence, but only after a time did you realize that for all her brains, she saw what she wanted to see, would try to make true what she wanted to be true. Of the two indisputably frightening things about her, the lesser was that she so often succeeded.

 

It could be said to be the defining aspect of her character.

[Fains nose]

I think that personality flaw is heavily due to her being brushed with fains dagger

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think that personality flaw is heavily due to her being brushed with fains dagger

 

I don't agree with that. The quote Luckers posted seems to go against that idea. The 'only after a time' part of the quote leads me to think that only after a time means a long period of time and it hasn't been that long since Fain was in the tower a year or two at most. From what Alvarin says I get the impression of having to know Eladia a long time and that it isn't a recent development in her character rather it's always been in her personality.

[Luckers]

Indeed--I suspect that Fain's influence touched on the last point. 'Of the two indisputably frightening things about her, the lesser was that she so often succeeded.'

 

His insertion of paranoia stripped her of her capability. It did not make the inital flaw.

[Otarin]

Eladia spent time with Fain (enough to be infected by him). There is a good bet she was brushed with the dagger.  If you look at what the dagger did to Mat and what is said to have happened to the people of Shadar Logoth you can extrapolate to her. At this point she is messed up enough to believe anyone who opposes her is a DF; so she can say it with the oaths and believe it.

[algspkr]

Eladia spent time with Fain (enough to be infected by him). There is a good bet she was brushed with the dagger.   If you look at what the dagger did to Mat and what is said to have happened to the people of Shadar Logoth you can extrapolate to her. At this point she is messed up enough to believe anyone who opposes her is a DF; so she can say it with the oaths and believe it.

 

She was never near the dagger.  Fain left as soon as he procured it.

[Shadow Rider]

Why was Elaida, not able to kill Egwene? if she truly believed Egwene was a Darkfriend.

[Charlz Fel]

Eladia spent time with Fain (enough to be infected by him). There is a good bet she was brushed with the dagger.  If you look at what the dagger did to Mat and what is said to have happened to the people of Shadar Logoth you can extrapolate to her. At this point she is messed up enough to believe anyone who opposes her is a DF; so she can say it with the oaths and believe it.

 

She was never near the dagger.  Fain left as soon as he procured it.

 

This is true.  However, Fain can do some degree of damage even without the dagger; witness what he did to Pedron Niall.

[Ishmayl]

Why was Elaida, not able to kill Egwene? if she truly believed Egwene was a Darkfriend.

 

Aes Sedai can't just kill random darkfriends.  I believe Moraine mentioned one time that the Darkfriend would have to be especially vile for the Aes Sedai to circumvent the Three Oaths on it? 

[TheDecline01]

Elaida's latest insanity do seem to have Fain's hand on it. I can admit that Elaida is the type of woman to think something so much that she's persuaded it is the truth, but I can't believe a highly successful Aes Sedai (from what we read in the books anyway) could lose her temper and mind this easily on a matter of being responded to. It just doesn't make sense. I remember telling myself when I read those parts of the book, "What the hell is with her?? Isn't she supposed to be Aes Sedai, and Amyrlin Seat above all?"

[jemron]

Elaida would've made a great Whitecloak... minus the channeling of course.

 

 

[Durinax]

I never really got that fain's taint upon her type thing. I never saw that.

 

I think its just Elaida herself who did all that, she believed she knew best for as long as i could remember. She has always been bullish and hard on people, like wiht moraine and suian in new spring. and being a advisor to the queen of andor has made her worse, then gaining the ultimate power thanks to the black ajah corrupted her even worse with the power. Plus personnally I think she is one of those who believes that because she can make the laws she believes she is above the law, which explains how bad she was to others, she just had enough sense not to attack the hall to openly or anything like that

[darth_hel]

I always thought it might be a case where someone can believe and be sure of something when angry that they never could be sure of when calm. Sometimes when you're angry you make connections in your mind that require a great failure of any logic.

[TheAngryDruid]

Why was Elaida, not able to kill Egwene? if she truly believed Egwene was a Darkfriend.

 

Aes Sedai can't just kill random darkfriends.  I believe Moraine mentioned one time that the Darkfriend would have to be especially vile for the Aes Sedai to circumvent the Three Oaths on it? 

 

I think that quote from Moiraine (from EoTW) was in regards to AS and Warders detecting Shadowspawn, and that a DF would have to be extremely vile and devoted to the Shadow to be detected.

 

Though there has been some confusion on the 3rd Oath, but in some iterations in the books, Darkfriends are included. If so, then yes, the could just kill them with the power.

 

Of course, their Warders could kill any DF regardless, or the AS could just kill them w/out using the power. 

[Luckers]

The issue with the Third Oath was cleared up.

 

Q: The wording of the Third Oath: RAFO, or error? (Egwene et al. say 'except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn', while Moiraine et al. only mention Shadowspawn) And, if error, which is the correct wording?

 

A: Brandon said he had to make sure he got the wording right for the Oaths, so he went back and copied it word for word from the previous books. Maria was the one that changed it saying RJ decided that Darkfriends should have always been included in the Oaths.

 

Eladia spent time with Fain (enough to be infected by him). There is a good bet she was brushed with the dagger.   If you look at what the dagger did to Mat and what is said to have happened to the people of Shadar Logoth you can extrapolate to her. At this point she is messed up enough to believe anyone who opposes her is a DF; so she can say it with the oaths and believe it.

 

She was never near the dagger.  Fain left as soon as he procured it.

 

This is true.  However, Fain can do some degree of damage even without the dagger; witness what he did to Pedron Niall.

 

Indeed, and Brandon confirmed that.

 

Matt: I heard you answer a question last night, which sounded interesting. Someone asked about Padan Fain and Elaida...

 

Brandon: A lot of people don’t remember that they met.

 

Matt: So, his influence...how long, for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?

 

Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the [same] person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, natural tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...

 

Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene, she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…

 

Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…

 

Matt: ...so, the suggestion is, not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia; there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…

 

Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…

 

Matt: ...that is another source…

 

Brandon: Mat managed to fight it off pretty much completely; well, not completely, but we don’t see Mat running around paranoid anymore. Elaida gave it something to feed upon, and it was very, very small and subtle with Elaida, but certainly that was an influence.

 

Elaida's failings cannot be blamed exclusively on Fain's influence, but it sure didn't help.

[Fains nose]

I just wanted to remind people that there was a POV from Fain where he says he brushed Elaida with his dagger.

[Luckers]

No, he actually says he brushed her with what he carried from Shadar Logoth.

 

Unlikely Niall would have ever supported al'Thor any more than Elaida would have, but it was best not to take too much for granted with Rand bloody al'Thor. Well, he had brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never al'Thor now.

 

That cannot be the dagger, he did not have it with him for either meeting. It means, simply, the mordeth powers.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Why was Elaida, not able to kill Egwene? if she truly believed Egwene was a Darkfriend.

 

Aes Sedai can't just kill random darkfriends.  I believe Moraine mentioned one time that the Darkfriend would have to be especially vile for the Aes Sedai to circumvent the Three Oaths on it?  

 

Yes they can.  The Oath was always intended to include rank-and-file Darkfriends.  Witness Alanna wishing the Whitecloaks were DFs in book 4, so she could fry them for killing a Warder.  RJ just kept forgetting to add "and Darkfriends" to the end of the list of exceptions, but Brandon remembered when Egwene took the Oath in TGS.

 

The main argument against DFs being included in the oath, Moiraine getting Be'lal's attention before attacking him in TDR, rather than sniping him from behind, can be explained away by the fact that she is the weakest channeler in the main cast, and Be'lal was winning the duel against Rand.  She had to distract him, since her balefire was not strong enough to undo the fatal wound that was coming.  This raises the question on whether Be'lal is gone for good, but that's a theory for another topic.  (Has anyone thought to ask RJ or BS to use the "t" word for Be'lal?)

 

As for why Elaida did not fry Egwene there and then, she and Egwene both knew that if Egwene were to just die, Egwene's supporters would revolt.  Elaida needed to parade Egwene in front of her supporters as a Darkfriend to browbeat them into obedience.

[DaughterOfNight]

Elaida's latest insanity do seem to have Fain's hand on it. I can admit that Elaida is the type of woman to think something so much that she's persuaded it is the truth, but I can't believe a highly successful Aes Sedai (from what we read in the books anyway) could lose her temper and mind this easily on a matter of being responded to. It just doesn't make sense. I remember telling myself when I read those parts of the book, "What the hell is with her?? Isn't she supposed to be Aes Sedai, and Amyrlin Seat above all?"

 

Me too.  I accept much of Elaida's rage and such but she is far beyond the acceptable range of AS behavior.  Ok so she is mad with power but geeeeeeze.... she's nuts and we have yet to meet a non-black AS who is as unpredictable as she.

[Fains nose]

@Luckers, oh yeh, thats even more interesting, i hope for more insight into Fains Aridhol powers in ToM

[Jong]

The Elaida of NS and tEotW clearly is not a nice person. She rides others cruelly and enjoys holding a position of dominance. She also seems to be unafraid to denounce a complete stranger (Rand) based simply on a feeling. But she does not act precipitously on that feeling in tEotW. She had restraint. She could have -- for instance --had Rand followed and abducted.

 

The Elaida of the later books is an unrestrained manipulator and bully. She clearly has developed superiority / dominance complex in her reaction to any problem is to attack. I think her own inate desire to dominate those around her combined with the power of the stole and with Fain's influence toward paranoia led her to this end.

[Suttree]

I never really got that fain's taint upon her type thing. I never saw that.

 

I think its just Elaida herself who did all that, she believed she knew best for as long as i could remember. She has always been bullish and hard on people, like wiht moraine and suian in new spring. and being a advisor to the queen of andor has made her worse, then gaining the ultimate power thanks to the black ajah corrupted her even worse with the power. Plus personnally I think she is one of those who believes that because she can make the laws she believes she is above the law, which explains how bad she was to others, she just had enough sense not to attack the hall to openly or anything like that

 

Fain obviously brought out the worst parts in her personality after brushing her with the powers he took from SL. She along with most of the white tower go swiftly south after that point.