Seanchan = USA? (another question, not just their accent)

[mellojoe]

The Seanchan's colors are stripes of Red, Yellow, and Blue.  Was this a deliberate attempt to match one of the most common colors of flags in the Anglo- and American- worlds?  If the Seanchan had painted bright Red, WHITE, and Blue stripes across their chests, it would be a very obvious tie to the American colonies.

 

What do you think?  Am I reading too much into this?  Did Jordan just like the Red, Yellow and Blue imagery?

[cortezthekiller]

I've always thought of the Seanchan much more like an Imperial Japanese society.

[farthammer]

negative

[Durinax]

uhm I hate to say this but red white and blue arent american colours. They are revolutionary colours, I dont know how those colours became so closely associated with america but red white and blue has been in many flags before the american

[cortezthekiller]

uhm I hate to say this but red white and blue arent american colours. They are revolutionary colours, I dont know how those colours became so closely associated with america but red white and blue has been in many flags before the american

 

Well, obviously it's because the American flag is the BEST flag... duh

8)

 

[Manel Rochaid]

uhm I hate to say this but red white and blue arent american colours. They are revolutionary colours, I dont know how those colours became so closely associated with america but red white and blue has been in many flags before the american

 

Well, obviously it's because the American flag is the BEST flag... duh

8)

 

 

I think you mean our British flag surely?

 

However, I would say I think the seanchan are a more Japanese style society. They have absolute faith in the rulers, a great value is placed on "face", plus cool swordsmen :)

[Charlz Fel]

RJ served in the American military.  This tends to entail a certain amount of patriotism.  I doubt that he would have deliberately set out to depict his own nation as ruthless conquerers, which is how they are portrayed back in book two.

 

Additionally, aside from the Texan accent, the two cultures could not be more different.  American culture is highly individualistic; Seanchan culture is anything but.

 

And anyone who tries to compare the Seanchan slavery system to that of the pre-Civil War American South is doing a gross injustice to the Seanchan.

[Fains nose]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

[Elend]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

[MikeRiley]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I knew politics would come up in this thread. An interesting thought here is this applies to the other side as well. Not a good comparison in this case, now is it?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with Both fain and Elend here, but I think it is a mix between the two (god save me from american Patriots for agreeing)

 

[farthammer]

[Too far by half. Removed.]

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

 

Whitecloaks = Inquisition

Tar Valon = Catholic Church/Vatican

Amyrlin = Pope

 

 

 

Also what the hell are you on about? Anglo-American? The red, blue and white scheme has been native to France and the French republics long before it was adopted by the British (who are historically red and white).

 

The Seanchan seem a deep mixture of Chinese and Japanese culture. Nothing like the US or European culture, especially with their emphasis on worshipping the Emperors as gods and putting the collective in front of the individual.

[Demiandre]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

 

Whitecloaks = Inquisition

Tar Valon = Catholic Church/Vatican

Amyrlin = Pope

 

 

 

Also what the hell are you on about? Anglo-American? The red, blue and white scheme has been native to France and the French republics long before it was adopted by the British (who are historically red and white).

 

The Seanchan seem a deep mixture of Chinese and Japanese culture. Nothing like the US or European culture, especially with their emphasis on worshipping the Emperors as gods and putting the collective in front of the individual.

 

Agree with Spanish inquisition, Vatican and Pope. And the Splut of the WT can refer to the split among the catholic church in Europe during the XIVe century, when the Pope settled in Avignon for a bit of time.

 

And I checked and the first version of the american flag with 13 stars is from 1777. This flag seems the first one, as the Union Jack has been officially used the 1st of january 1801 and the french flag on 14th July 1789.

 

But then, the current version of the Stars and Stripes date from 1960...

 

And yes, the Seanchan (as well as the Aiel) reminds me of japanese samurai,  who makes seppuku when dishonored, have a great deal of customs related with honor, duty, and so.

[Elend]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

 

Whitecloaks = Inquisition

Tar Valon = Catholic Church/Vatican

Amyrlin = Pope

 

 

 

Also what the hell are you on about? Anglo-American? The red, blue and white scheme has been native to France and the French republics long before it was adopted by the British (who are historically red and white).

 

The Seanchan seem a deep mixture of Chinese and Japanese culture. Nothing like the US or European culture, especially with their emphasis on worshipping the Emperors as gods and putting the collective in front of the individual.

 

You're right. I inserted Catholic Church as a short-hand for the presence of an organization that technically exists for more than just rooting out heretics. But in comparison to Tar Valon it is a weaker analogue.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

 

Whitecloaks = Inquisition

Tar Valon = Catholic Church/Vatican

Amyrlin = Pope

 

 

 

Also what the hell are you on about? Anglo-American? The red, blue and white scheme has been native to France and the French republics long before it was adopted by the British (who are historically red and white).

 

The Seanchan seem a deep mixture of Chinese and Japanese culture. Nothing like the US or European culture, especially with their emphasis on worshipping the Emperors as gods and putting the collective in front of the individual.

 

Agree with Spanish inquisition, Vatican and Pope. And the Splut of the WT can refer to the split among the catholic church in Europe during the XIVe century, when the Pope settled in Avignon for a bit of time.

 

And I checked and the first version of the american flag with 13 stars is from 1777. This flag seems the first one, as the Union Jack has been officially used the 1st of january 1801 and the french flag on 14th July 1789.

 

But then, the current version of the Stars and Stripes date from 1960...

 

And yes, the Seanchan (as well as the Aiel) reminds me of japanese samurai,  who makes seppuku when dishonored, have a great deal of customs related with honor, duty, and so.

 

The flag of the Netherlands is a horizontal tricolour of red, white, and blue. Introduced in 1572, it is one of the first tricolours and the oldest tricolour still in use today.

 

Ok. Apparently it was neither the French, British or US who had the first version.

 

 

PS: Also the Russians have been using the red, white and blue coloring since 1693. Peter the Great based it off a Dutch frigate he saw. He simply re-arranged the colors.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I see america as the Whitecloaks, their use of torture, and murder of innocent civilians in the name of the light(democracy) and their war on the shadow(terrorism), they are both generaly hated or at least disliked by the population of the world, and they think they know best and their system is best and they invade countries to assert their power(whitecloak war/south america, vietnam, iraq)

 

I always saw the Whitecloaks as the Catholic Church and Inquisition. It isn't a nation or state so much as an ideology that happens to be stationed in a particular area. Not the modern day Catholic Church, though.

 

I don't really think there is any analogue of the United States in the Wheel of Time verse.

 

Whitecloaks = Inquisition

Tar Valon = Catholic Church/Vatican

Amyrlin = Pope

 

 

 

Also what the hell are you on about? Anglo-American? The red, blue and white scheme has been native to France and the French republics long before it was adopted by the British (who are historically red and white).

 

The Seanchan seem a deep mixture of Chinese and Japanese culture. Nothing like the US or European culture, especially with their emphasis on worshipping the Emperors as gods and putting the collective in front of the individual.

 

You're right. I inserted Catholic Church as a short-hand for the presence of an organization that technically exists for more than just rooting out heretics. But in comparison to Tar Valon it is a weaker analogue.

 

True that. To give the comparisons:

 

Tar Valon - Huge city with lots of marble. Splat in the center is the White Tower.

Rome - Huge city with lots of marble. Splat in the center is the Vatican.

 

Aes Sedai = single sex order who carry a strong amount of respect among the lay people

Priests/monks/friars = single sex orders who carry a strong amount of respect among the lay people

 

Amyrlin = Elected by the Hall of the Tower. Has to prove herself of the female sex by baring her breasts.

Pope = Elected by the College of Cardinals. Has to prove himself of the male sex by sitting on a special chair showing his male genitalia.

 

Tar Valon = Holds many priceless artefacts of history and collects them

Vatican = Holds many priceless pieces of art, writings and books of the past 2,000 years.

 

White Tower = Ajahs divided into separate orders for separate tasks. Brown for history. Blue for diplomacy. White for logic.

Catholic Church = Orders divided for separate lifestyles and tasks. Jesuits for the higher study of mathematics, physics and sciences. Franciscans for the farm life of raising domestic animals. Dominicans for laymen tasks such as specializing in blacksmithing and woodwork.

 

Tar Valon = Tries to manipulate rulers

Catholic Church = Rich history of manipulating rulers

 

White Tower = Time has passed, Empires and Kingdoms have risen and fallen. But the White Tower still stands as a relic to the past.

Vatican/Catholic Church = Much the same. The RCC is the only living/surviving institution from the Roman Empire. It has a 2,000 year history, starting with Peter declaring Rome the first bishopry. Since then the RCC has survived the dark ages, renaissance, imperial age, industrial age, communism, fascism and still stands strong as ever.

[Spirax]

GB flag has red, white and blue in it.

[Fains nose]

I thought the red white and blue came from the french revolutinary coulours which stood for the 1st 2nd and 3rd Estate, or Liberte, Fraternity, and one other, and because there were French revolutionary generals fighting agains the english in the american war of independance, america adopted the colours. With the union jack i thing the red and white stand for england and st.george, and the blue is for scotland. Isnt their some international standard for what colours stand for in flags ?

[Elend]

I thought the red white and blue came from the french revolutinary coulours which stood for the 1st 2nd and 3rd Estate, or Liberte, Fraternity, and one other, and because there were French revolutionary generals fighting agains the english in the american war of independance, america adopted the colours. With the union jack i thing the red and white stand for england and st.george, and the blue is for scotland. Isnt their some international standard for what colours stand for in flags ?

 

The American flag predates the French Revolution. The color scheme is often associated with revolution, though.

 

Also, as pointed out earlier, other countries were using the colors before either France or the United States.

[farthammer]

RJ served in the American military.  This tends to entail a certain amount of patriotism.  I doubt that he would have deliberately set out to depict his own nation as ruthless conquerers, which is how they are portrayed back in book two.

 

This would seem to make sense but it is actually not a very good assumption at all.

[Demiandre]

I thought the red white and blue came from the french revolutinary coulours which stood for the 1st 2nd and 3rd Estate, or Liberte, Fraternity, and one other, and because there were French revolutionary generals fighting agains the english in the american war of independance, america adopted the colours. With the union jack i thing the red and white stand for england and st.george, and the blue is for scotland. Isnt their some international standard for what colours stand for in flags ?

 

The American flag predates the French Revolution. The color scheme is often associated with revolution, though.

 

Also, as pointed out earlier, other countries were using the colors before either France or the United States.

 

In fact, for the french flag, White is the color of Royalty, and Blue and Red the color of the Parisian flag. The french flag represent the revolution : the last King Louis XVI is trapped in Versailles, because of a giant mob who already took the Bastille.

 

For the Union Jack, there are three crosses. One for Saint Georges, one for Saint Patrick and the third for Saint Andrew, respectively representing Britany, Ireland and Scotland.

 

I don't know if heraldic symbolism may be applied to flags...

[Majsju]

A reminder. This board is for WOT-related discussions. Obviously the topic at hand requires some talk about real nations, but there are limits. And well, several posts arguing about the colours of real world flags is certainly moving the thread towards the wrong side of those limits.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Back on topic. Further comparisons I noticed;

 

Tear = Spain

Andor = England

Cairhien = 18th century France [Versailles and Palace intrigues]

White Tower/Aes Sedai = Roman Catholic Church

Whitecloaks = Teutonic Knights [Their settling of Amadicia is similar to their settling in/creation of Prussia]

Aiel = Very heavily based on Frank Herbert's Fremen from the Dune series. Probably a tribute.

Black Tower = Waffen SS

 

 

Probably more that I missed. Don't know any single direct reference to the US, other than the "texan accent" though. Another small easter egg was that the palace in Arad Doman I believe it was, had something described exactly like a silver "Mercedes Benz" logo as a relic "from the Age of Legends or perhaps even a time before the Age of Legends."

[Bowden]

lol @ america haters.  jealous much?....  XD