Tomas--The New Verinism. (Re-Post for DMDB)

[Luckers]

I forgot where I put this so reposting it.

 

So, ok, this may be reaching at straws, but something occurred to me when doing the write up for the DMDB Very Helpful Verin listing--specifically, Verin's behaviour was scoured prior to tGS for actions that were out of the ordinary (aka Verinisms). After tGS, though, we've not really paid attention to new abnormalities--oh people discuss her notes to Mat, but the spotlight on her seems to have faded.

 

Yet she does say some very weird things about her Warder, Tomas.

 

"Tomas. Does he know what you've done?"

 

"He was a Darkfriend himself, child," Verin said. "Wanting a way out. Well, there really isn't a way out, not once the Great Lord has his claws in you. But there was a way to fight, to make up for a little of what you've done. I offered that chance to Tomas, and I believe he was quite grateful to me for it."

 

Egwene hesitated, trying to take all of this in. Verin was a Darkfriend . . . but not one at the same time. "You said he 'was' quite grateful to you?"

 

Verin didn't answer immediately. She simply took another sip of her tea. "The oaths one makes to the Great Lord are quite specific," she finally continued. "And, when they are placed upon one who can channel, they are quite binding. Impossible to break. You can double-cross other Dark-friends, you can turn against the Chosen if you can justify it. Selfishness must be preserved. But you can never betray him. You can never betray the order itself to outsiders. But the oaths are specific. Very specific." She looked up, meeting Egwene's eyes. " 'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.' That was what I promised. Do you see?"

 

Egwene looked down at the steaming cup in Verin's hands. "Poison?"

 

"It takes a very special tea to make asping rot go down sweetly," Verin said, taking another sip. "As I said, please thank Laras for me."

 

Egwene closed her eyes. Nynaeve had mentioned asping rot to her; a drop could kill. It was a quick death, peaceful, and often came . . . within an hour of ingestion.

 

"A curious hole in the oaths," Verin said softly. "To allow one to effect a betrayal in the final hour of one's life. I cannot help wondering if the Great Lord knows of it. Why wouldn't he close that hole?"

 

"Perhaps he doesn't see it as threatening," Egwene said, opening her eyes. "After all, what kind of Darkfriend would kill themselves in order to advance the greater good? It doesn't seem the kind of thing his followers would consider."

 

"You may be right at that," Verin said, setting the cup of tea aside. "It would be wise to make certain that is disposed of with care, child."

 

"So that is it?" Egwene asked, chilled. "What of Tomas?"

 

"We made our farewells. He is spending his last hour with family."

 

[tGS; 39, A Visit From Verin Sedai]

 

My problem with this is why is Tomas spending his last hour doing anything? Why does he have a last hour at all? The last hour prescription is a function of the binding Black Aes Sedai undergo, so why was it applicable to Tomas?

 

Verin says he was looking for a way out, and that there were none but that there was a way to fight back. The assumption here is that that way ended for him with Verin's death, yet it is curious--Verin clearly had plans for beyond her death--she did not actually want to die, and only did so because the removal of the Oath Rod left her no other options. So why did Tomas have to die? He clearly was on her side, and she could have released his bond so he didn't suffer the Death Absortion Effect.

 

Brandon has told us we should still be asking questions about Verin, and prior to her revelation this sort of thing would have rung alarm bells--yet no one questions it. Why go into such detail about Tomas? Why act like he was as bound by the Oath against betraying the Great Lord as she was?

 

I don't really have an answer--maybe he is persuing her goals, the ones she implies to Egwene she has set in motion. Yet why does she conceal him doing so whilst trusting Egwene with everything else? Or if she is to conceal him, why doesn't she just shut up about him?

 

As I said this may be reaching, but most the Verinisms began so, and Brandon has suggested we should continue in this light....

 

 

So yeah. Thoughts?

[Thor]

Maybe Tomas can channel?

[FarShainMael]

One possibility that occurs to me is that Verin, with Tomas' agreement, did not release his bond specifically so that he would go berserk on her death. That would mean that before that happens, he would need to place himself among other DFs, so that when the red mist comes down and he starts lashing out at anything that moves he can do the Darkside a lot of damage. But he has his last peaceful hour with family, first.

 

(PS: What family? How long do Warders live? Do they share in their AS' Power-linked longevity?)

 

[Duskfire]

One possibility that occurs to me is that Verin, with Tomas' agreement, did not release his bond specifically so that he would go berserk on her death. That would mean that before that happens, he would need to place himself among other DFs, so that when the red mist comes down and he starts lashing out at anything that moves he can do the Darkside a lot of damage. But he has his last peaceful hour with family, first.

 

(PS: What family? How long do Warders live? Do they share in their AS' Power-linked longevity?)

 

 

No, Warders have high vitality and vigor up to a older age then standard, but they do not slow at all. Verin and Tomas haven't been together all that long. I can't remember if its been stated how long exactly, but she did have a warder previous to him which took a fair few years for her to get over his death.

 

I look at what Verin said as basically Tomas deciding that he didn't want to live on without her. She decided to kill herself to aid in the Light, and Tomas decided the same. Besides, the whole Aes Sedai dying thing is bad for a Warder :P He probably just didn't want to go through with it.

[Jemlin]

How do we know that by "family" she meant those he was related to?

 

He could be doing something else to betray the Dark One....

 

She could also be lying =D

[farthammer]

I thought it was odd how Caraline Damodred introduced Rand as Tomas Trakand.  I wonder if she knew Verin's warder or perhaps the name Tomas has some significance, and her warder is using that name as an alias due to that.

[DocBean]

I always thought Verin was a darkfriend.

at least since she lied to Perrin that is. I never went to forums and just read the books, so I thought myself very clever when catching her in her lie.

 

I was surprised by how easy it was for people to defend her when I did visit my first forum.

 

Right up until she revealed the truth I suspected her.

So the whole time she told her story to Matt I said, "That's a lying B!tch Matt Stay Away!"

and figured her whole Tavern story was one big lie.

 

I'm still not sure if she was telling the truth to Matt, but after her death I've stopped my witch hunt.

Maybe I shouldn't.

 

It's possible that she let a lot of darkfriends know about Egwene, and that's why so many got away.

But Egwene killed tons of them, so I have to think Verin is legit.

 

I wonder how the darkfriends knew to start running, but my guess is Messena is involved, or some of the dark sisters were bonded to each other.

Somehow word got out that there was a hunt in progress. Maybe Verin left a few of her letters with her more favored sisters of the black.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Whats the possibility of what Verin did all being part of the Dark One's plans. I rememeber someone, RJ I think, likening the fight between the light and the shadow as a boxing match. The light being on the ropes and all that. Another item I remember reading was the shadow isn't fighting in the way Rand thinks.

 

Although another twist or turn around of events like that would probably one too much.

[rhadamanthus]

Occam's razor would suggest he had his own oaths to contend with.

[DemandredFO]

I believe Verin is telling the truth but I too still wonder if the purge wasn't part of the DO's plans.  As for Tomas, the Caraline Damodred angle could be interesting if true.  As I'm relistening to the books I'm startled at the numbers of things foreshadowed in earlier books

[Jillain Sanche]

"He was a Darkfriend himself, child," Verin said. "Wanting a way out. Well, there really isn't a way out, not once the Great Lord has his claws in you. But there was a way to fight, to make up for a little of what you've done. I offered that chance to Tomas, and I believe he was quite grateful to me for it."

 

There was a way to fight that Verin offered Tomas, a chance to make up for some of what he had done. Well, it is a little nebulous, but I guess it meant that she was honest with him alone of all people. He covered, protected and assisted her as a Warder does while she spied upon the other darkfriends.

 

Is there more than this?

 

And that is an interesting thing that Brandon said we should still be asking questions. Leaves me curious but I have no idea where to go with it?

 

[farthammer]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like there are some strong parallels between Verin and the Amayar.  Suicide by drinking poison, comments Verin made about not trusting Laras had enough unspoiled tea/poison ingredients, the references to the Amayar running out of their intended poison herbs.  Verin's strange references to keeping her 'skin intact' and Tomas going on about her gray hairs for some reason.  And the Amayar's world view centered around the idea of Illusion.  I wonder if Verin was in fact one of them, or possibly acquired a great deal of knowledge about those people that she has kept secret.  

 

Laras apparently always carrying around a wooden spoon as if it were a scepter also seems strange.  Maybe she was cradling invisible books and was using the spoon as a prop to disguise it?

[Ataxia]

Haha after reading your 2 theories (this and the Taim one) Im starting to think it will be Tomas who frees Pevara and the other AS somehow after he delivers the horn to Mat. Maybe Verin tells Mat to lay low because of the destruction thats going to happen right next to Camelyn. Obviously he wouldnt stand much of a chance vs an Ashaman, but he can sneak in at night and start assasinating them. It would give him a spot to die, killing as many as he can.

[lews reborn]

With Verin ending her life by doing so much good with for the light side i think she gave Tomas this chance. him being with family probably meant being with high dark friends to unleash his fury when Verin died. it would be good to get a pov from him and learn more of Verins struggle in the BA

[Duskfire]

Whats the possibility of what Verin did all being part of the Dark One's plans. I rememeber someone, RJ I think, likening the fight between the light and the shadow as a boxing match. The light being on the ropes and all that. Another item I remember reading was the shadow isn't fighting in the way Rand thinks.

 

Although another twist or turn around of events like that would probably one too much.

 

I suppose it would be possible, but unlikely. Why would the DO want to lose basically a Shadow presence in the Whitetower? Why would he want all BA to be cats out and on the run. Seems a bit extreme. However, it is the DO, so who knows.

[MikeRiley]

It's possible that Tomas was just another darkfriend warder until Verin offered him a way out - whatever it is he was just set to do. The "way out" doesn't have to mean he was offered it when he became her warder. Just throwing that out there to confuse matters more!

 

Consider that Verin is about to die and the Dark One will know of her betrayal soon enough. Tomas would become wanted just for associating with her. He'll be able to strike a blow at those who still believe he is on the Dark One's side before they realize he is not, and he will die in the process and avoid a slow painful exit. It's just a matter of finding out where he's striking it, or what he's doing. It was suggested in the old copy of this thread that he was transporting the Horn of Valere out of the Tower, which would tie in with Verin's letter to Mat waiting in Caemlyn (as well as Tomas' family being in that city).

 

We know the Black Ajah forms itself into hearts. What about darkfriend warders? They must be able to tell at least a few others. Maybe those are his "family". Either way, it seems like she sent him on a mission and he's not just in Caemlyn catching up on old times. His death would not come about from that unless his family absolutely hated him. That Verin still wanted to live was obvious in her attempt to get the oath rod, so it wasn't even clear to Tomas that she was dead walking. Just screams "secret mission" to me, one that was very important and most likely to end in his own death.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Whats the possibility of what Verin did all being part of the Dark One's plans. I rememeber someone, RJ I think, likening the fight between the light and the shadow as a boxing match. The light being on the ropes and all that. Another item I remember reading was the shadow isn't fighting in the way Rand thinks.

 

Although another twist or turn around of events like that would probably one too much.

 

I suppose it would be possible, but unlikely. Why would the DO want to lose basically a Shadow presence in the Whitetower? Why would he want all BA to be cats out and on the run. Seems a bit extreme. However, it is the DO, so who knows.

 

As to Verin actually being loyal to the shadow...

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Verin does have blood on her hands, but everything she has done has been for the greater good.

 

So yea, i think that whole scene was legit, if not excatly what we think it is.

 

 

[Shoulderthumper]

Would her actions be enough to link her to the Horn as a Hero?

 

Swearing the oaths of the Black Ajah in order toserve the greater good and sacrificing her life to unveil their presence?

 

Could that be why we should still question her?

[DemandredFO]

A reason for throwing away the BA is now we know there's a way to beat the OR, so what if Verin was allowed to destroy the BA so that everyone would think the tower cleansed.  Then Mesaana and some new BA rise in a surprise attack to cause chaos.

[Owayn The Traveller]

A reason for throwing away the BA is now we know there's a way to beat the OR, so what if Verin was allowed to destroy the BA so that everyone would think the tower cleansed.  Then Mesaana and some new BA rise in a surprise attack to cause chaos.

 

Yes I was thinking something along that lines with Mesaana. Maybe Verin was legit but it is possible the Dark One was aware of her dubious loyalties and became aware of her plan. It's possible he couldn't or didn't want to stop the cleansing as he has something up his sleeve. Lulling the Aes Sedai into a false sense of sercurity.

[MikeRiley]

There was a Black Ajah plot in Egwene's test to become Accepted that took place after the Great Purge which was believed to have wiped them out. Egwene (as Amyrlin) was to be turned with the 13x13 trick. I think the ter'angreal she entered pulled possible futures and let her live them - they are rings, just like the ones in Rhuidean.

[Bowden]

My question is; Why didn't Egwene attempt to heal Verin after she told her everything, and then get her to the OR?

 

Regardless of Egwene's skill with healing, she has at least some.