Will access to the One Power survive the last battle?

[bobothebarbarian]

this was my Big Unnoticed thing Idea Ill quote my post from there

 

ok now my idea for the Unnoticed Thing

 

i cant find what book it was in but it is said that in ages past people did not even know about the one power. so from that we know that at some point the ability has to be forgotten somehow. So what i was thinking is that in some way the power will be used up or lost. this  would kind of go along with the great Luckers Bodyswap Theory if you take in to all the many times we read things like this

Quote

There was a joy in holding the Power, a joy in working saidar, that she could not have put into words. To contain saidar, to be contained by it, was to seem alive beyond any other time.

and could also be how Logain gains power if all chanelers all at once lose the ability to use the one power it would be madness but if someone that had experienced that before could create some kind of order.

 

now i hope that is not what happens (bad dragons of summer flame flash back) but still could be the Unnoticed Thing. could just be that BS was surprised people hadn't been talking about it  ::)

[Barid Bel Medar]

this was my Big Unnoticed thing Idea Ill quote my post from there

 

ok now my idea for the Unnoticed Thing

 

i cant find what book it was in but it is said that in ages past people did not even know about the one power. so from that we know that at some point the ability has to be forgotten somehow. So what i was thinking is that in some way the power will be used up or lost. this  would kind of go along with the great Luckers Bodyswap Theory if you take in to all the many times we read things like this

Quote

There was a joy in holding the Power, a joy in working saidar, that she could not have put into words. To contain saidar, to be contained by it, was to seem alive beyond any other time.

and could also be how Logain gains power if all chanelers all at once lose the ability to use the one power it would be madness but if someone that had experienced that before could create some kind of order.

 

now i hope that is not what happens (bad dragons of summer flame flash back) but still could be the Unnoticed Thing. could just be that BS was surprised people hadn't been talking about it  ::)

 

I dont know about the theory in general,but it cant be the BUT.

 

1. It has been a constant through the whole series, before the SR.

 

2. Theres been nothing that alludes to the loss of the OP, only mentioned once as you said, and not how or why it would be lost again. it is supposed to be head slappingly plain, this is not.

 

Apart from that, its possible, but I doubt it. Theres the whole thing about the Servants balancing the Guardians, AS and AM, after the LB. if the power was lost, (I dont see how it could just be lost, because the power is not something taht can be destroyed, it is the fuel for the wheel of time, so unless the wheel was broken -which may also be possible, but im not inclined to believe it, ie the whole point of "another chance to live" in tGS "VoG"- the power could not actually be used up. I suppose there could be a mass burn out/ stilling, but i cant see how this would occur. ) it would mean everyone that knows about channeling dying.

 

So basically, the fortelling of the AS and AM would nto be true, becuase if the power was somehow lost to the world, the AS/AM wouldnt exist

 

[Jemlin]

There is nothing in any prophecies to alude to the OP going fizzle after T.G.  In fact, it says "the Guardians will Balance the Servants".

 

Loss of the One power would be a significant thing, and I doubt it would have absolutely NO hint at all in any fortelling or prophecy if it was going to occur.

 

You folks are forgetting that there will need to be at least one more breaking and mass-loss of human life and civilization.  Afterall, if theoretically an age like ours is the *first* age, it grew slowly based on technology alone.  The current age seems to be a blend of One power and technology and so can not simply grow with out a fall and, THEN a loss of the One Power.

 

 

[farthammer]

Were there any well known prophecies or foretellings in the AoL, before the Bore, which hinted at something like the DO?  If anyone thought so, obviously they would have tried to prevent it.  So why should we expect prophecy to necessarily shed light on anything in particular?  Remember that most of the ones in the story have basically traveled through the historical grapevine, some appear they may have been corrupted, or elements lost in translation.  But how many foretellings do you think have been made and disregarded, not passed on, because at the time they did not seem they were of any particular interest?

 

Make a foretelling about the Dragon though and you get put down in the history books.

[Luckers]

It's likely prophecy couldn't predict the Dark One until he actuall came to touch the pattern. If you read through Min's dissection at the end of tGS, it is only through the effects on the weaving of the pattern that the Dark One's touch can be predicted--and until that first touching it was therefore utterly unpredictable.

 

So prophecy might have seen them drilling a hole in the pattern, but not beyond it, including the backlash, because until the backlash actually began the pattern had no way to predict it.

[TheDecline01]

I'm personnally convinced that there should no more OP after the Last Battle. I really can't back that up, it's just a feeling. It wont be necessarily right after it, but in the years following, all of the channelers dying and no one being born again with the ability. And the world evolving naturally, with no OP and so people having to rediscover doing things by themselves, listening to psychedelic music and being all hippies everywhere. Well, maybe not that extreme.

[Duskfire]

I believe it is highly unlikely that channeling will cease to exist. There has been so much emphasisim on male and female channelers needing to work together, and its definetly implied they aren't going to be on the greatest of terms for awhile yet. Wouldnt feel right that all of a sudden the One Power ceases to exist. I would say it would be a couple more ages yet.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I believe it is highly unlikely that channeling will cease to exist. There has been so much emphasisim on male and female channelers needing to work together, and its definetly implied they aren't going to be on the greatest of terms for awhile yet. Wouldnt feel right that all of a sudden the One Power ceases to exist. I would say it would be a couple more ages yet.

 

Yeah, it would be really crap. We have spent 13 books plus more on learning about Channeling, and the + and - and how it affects the social standings of people and everything. It is too big a part of the world to just vanish, if i does, i will be pretty annoyed, especially if it turns out to be our worlds "first age" itll feel like a copout

 

[Thor]

I honestly believe One Power will be blocked after the last battle. Aes Sedai and Ashaman don't need to channel to be able to lead, look at the Aiel Wise Ones.

 

This is exactly why LTT was not able to get the females to join them on the attack. His plan must have been to use both halves of the True Source to form a blanket of some sort over the DO which would cause OP to be inaccessible for all the channelers. Females unable to contemplate the change decided to just be stubborn and selfish and not help out.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I honestly believe One Power will be blocked after the last battle. Aes Sedai and Ashaman don't need to channel to be able to lead, look at the Aiel Wise Ones.

 

This is exactly why LTT was not able to get the females to join them on the attack. His plan must have been to use both halves of the True Source to form a blanket of some sort over the DO which would cause OP to be inaccessible for all the channelers. Females unable to contemplate the change decided to just be stubborn and selfish and not help out.

 

That wouldnt be possible.

The DO is not related to the OP in any way.

I doubt that your theory regarding LTT is true, we would have known if something like that was expected to happen. they would mention it somewhere, you know, something like "Oh the female AS didnt want to help because the OP would get wiped out if we did it." I dont see it.

 

the female channelers didnt help because they thought it was too risky doing it, that they may rip the bore right open trying to seal it.

 

So that aspect of your theory is not right, but as for the basic theory itself, well i suppose it is possible, but i dont think there would be a plausible way to do this

 

[Thor]

It was a speculation, not a theory.

[mb]

To a certain extent. There is no known AI that drives a motor vehicle with anywhere near the proficiency of a human. That is probably about 20-30 years off minimum. The best AI drivers often have a very difficult time with obstacle courses and turning. They will often think they can't get around obstacles that they can, or will just run right into the obstacle and keep going like it isn't there. So yes, we could replace a driver with a computer, but at this point I wouldn't let the computer on the real roads.

From what I recall from a show I watched long ago, I would trust a computer driver.

camera attached to top of vehicle observing the road; computer matching the camera image with a corresponding picture; programming corresponding to each picture, computer acting according to the respective programming.

 

 

The fact that the Portal Stones can be manipulated with the One Power does not mean that they require it or were even designed to be used with it.

If Portal Stones do not require the One Power, how come we have not seen any non-channelers "manipulate" them?

 

Cars were not designed to be used with computers, but we can now replace the driver with one.

Cars I guess represent the Portal Stones.

computers/drivers, I guess one represents One Power and the other not; though not sure which goes with which.

Yet as far as I am aware, the Portal Stones have always been manipulated by only channelers.

 

[Lambada]

Hmm...

 

I think it will survive, but one way I can see it not is if saidin and saidar are both fully stored in wells. We know that they are finite, but once used they return to the main body that channelers reach for. If this finite amount was stored entirely in a well what would the chanellers reach for? (Assuming none were near the well).

 

It would mean that Channeling would be effectively dead until the well was found by someone who could channel.

[johthohar]

We know that they are finite, but once used they return to the main body that channelers reach for.

 

I've never heard this? Is this based on actual information from the author or books? Or is it theory or speculation?

[Lambada]

We know that they are finite, but once used they return to the main body that channelers reach for.

 

I've never heard this? Is this based on actual information from the author or books? Or is it theory or speculation?

IIRC both the books and Jordan have stated as such. Can't remember where though.

And also, this fact was instrumental in how Rand cleansed the taint from sai'din.

[ROB_88]

Hmm...

 

I think it will survive, but one way I can see it not is if saidin and saidar are both fully stored in wells. We know that they are finite, but once used they return to the main body that channelers reach for. If this finite amount was stored entirely in a well what would the chanellers reach for? (Assuming none were near the well).

 

It would mean that Channeling would be effectively dead until the well was found by someone who could channel.

 

let me get this straight.

are you saying that the entire OP (which is infinite) would be stored in wells and basically cut off from the general public and maybe hidden away in some basement?

[Lambada]

Hmm...

 

I think it will survive, but one way I can see it not is if saidin and saidar are both fully stored in wells. We know that they are finite, but once used they return to the main body that channelers reach for. If this finite amount was stored entirely in a well what would the chanellers reach for? (Assuming none were near the well).

 

It would mean that Channeling would be effectively dead until the well was found by someone who could channel.

let me get this straight.

are you saying that the entire OP (which is infinite) would be stored in wells and basically cut off from the general public and maybe hidden away in some basement?

Correct, apart from the fact that the OP is finite. When people channel they are merely borrowing some, it then makes its way back to the source from where it came.

 

Exact quote

 

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)

Source: Theoryland Interview database.

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting

http://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_59g3crchdk&revision=_latest

[FarShainMael]

I have problems with the One Power. (Obviously I need a good angreal..  ;)  ) But seriously, I'm thinking about conservation of energy. Apart from Spirit, four of the threads of the OP are capable of manipulating both matter and energy - moving things around, moulding them, exploding them, heating them, cooling them. The energy to do this must come from somewhere. From what RJ says, it doesn't come from the OP, which is clearly used only to manipulate available physical energies, which must come from the environment.

 

So what 'available energies' are used?

 

If it was ambient heat, you'd expect things like a local drop in temperature, perhaps. Or maybe it's nuclear, or zero-point energy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

Again, I would expect to see local effects, spreading out from the point of use at speeds up to but not exceeding the speed of light. We haven't seen any of this even when the Asha'man were doing their 'rolling ring of earth and fire' at Dumai's Wells. Of course, if the Asha'man were tapping nuclear energy, they may have been setting off mini-chain reactions to get that effect.

 

Where we have seen local effects, though associated with the TP (a derivative of the OP), is in the 'halo of darkness' around Rand. Hmm!

 

 

[Lambada]

I have problems with the One Power. (Obviously I need a good angreal..  ;)  ) But seriously, I'm thinking about conservation of energy. Apart from Spirit, four of the threads of the OP are capable of manipulating both matter and energy - moving things around, moulding them, exploding them, heating them, cooling them. The energy to do this must come from somewhere. From what RJ says, it doesn't come from the OP, which is clearly used only to manipulate available physical energies, which must come from the environment.

 

So what 'available energies' are used?

 

If it was ambient heat, you'd expect things like a local drop in temperature, perhaps. Or maybe it's nuclear, or zero-point energy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

Again, I would expect to see local effects, spreading out from the point of use at speeds up to but not exceeding the speed of light. We haven't seen any of this even when the Asha'man were doing their 'rolling ring of earth and fire' at Dumai's Wells. Of course, if the Asha'man were tapping nuclear energy, they may have been setting off mini-chain reactions to get that effect.

 

Where we have seen local effects, though associated with the TP (a derivative of the OP), is in the 'halo of darkness' around Rand. Hmm!

Questions like this are rarely dealt with in fantasy novels. Brandon's own books though do very often deal with this. But he is the exception and not the rule.

I'd say just roll with it - it is magic after all.

[talligan]

I have problems with the One Power. (Obviously I need a good angreal..  ;)  ) But seriously, I'm thinking about conservation of energy. Apart from Spirit, four of the threads of the OP are capable of manipulating both matter and energy - moving things around, moulding them, exploding them, heating them, cooling them. The energy to do this must come from somewhere. From what RJ says, it doesn't come from the OP, which is clearly used only to manipulate available physical energies, which must come from the environment.

 

So what 'available energies' are used?

 

If it was ambient heat, you'd expect things like a local drop in temperature, perhaps. Or maybe it's nuclear, or zero-point energy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

Again, I would expect to see local effects, spreading out from the point of use at speeds up to but not exceeding the speed of light. We haven't seen any of this even when the Asha'man were doing their 'rolling ring of earth and fire' at Dumai's Wells. Of course, if the Asha'man were tapping nuclear energy, they may have been setting off mini-chain reactions to get that effect.

 

Where we have seen local effects, though associated with the TP (a derivative of the OP), is in the 'halo of darkness' around Rand. Hmm!

Questions like this are rarely dealt with in fantasy novels. Brandon's own books though do very often deal with this. But he is the exception and not the rule.

I'd say just roll with it - it is magic after all.

 

I always assumed a bit of the energy came from the channeler and the rest from the creator.

[Demiandre]

I saw it as akin to Alchemy (a bit like the manga Full Metal Alchemist). Lavoisier's law of Matter's conservation. But with something more to it. Like using Earth to modify the composition of the Matter you are working with, per example (totally silly one, I know), earth into sodium chlorate and iron into sugar, and you have an exploding ground. But without being this.

 

And for the loss of channeling, I think it is easier to see it from the soul PoV and not the source itself. According to some Q&A I read, that is the soul that determines the ability to channel. Whether the spark or the learning. So if nobody channels, it probably means that there is no one with the inborn ability. The concept of resurection makes it impossible that everybody living is a non-OP-able soul. But there could be Nynaeve-like cases with people who can learn. I hadn't enough time to think of it...

[Durinax]

saidar and saidin are an energy source, that some can access.

 

now it does take energy from the channeller to reach the source and use it

 

now the old weave of healing drew a bare minimum to heal, with the rest of the energy beign drawn from the person

whereas the new weave causes the healing power to draw entirely upon the source

 

at least this is how I understand the logistics of channelling

 

as for the question of survival of the OP

I think thati n all ages it exists, just in some the channellers have a more religious role and uses their powers to help people like druids and such

[FarShainMael]

The thing is, that if the OP is not used up but is returned to Source, it can't itself be the energy that is used in things like Healing. That would drain the True Source like a car battery trying to start a seized engine.

 

Agreed the is fantasy not SF, but I gather RJ had a scientific bent, and conservation of energy is one of the basics.

[DemandredFO]

RJ may(and probably did) set out the exact mechanics of the True Source and for that matter probably the True Power too.  We however are unlikely to find out what it is.  I'm just satisfied that it's a really good story that has magic, it's called suspension of disbelief.

[Entretamis]

the true sourse driver the wheel of time. If Rand kills the DO, then there is no wheel since the age can not come again. Just like if the DO breaks free. so with the wheel broken there is no TS, with the DO dead there is no TP.