A clue to Taim

[Kaman]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred. Another clue to this happens during the battle of Dumai Wells. Taim is the first person in the books to call the banner with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol on it the "Banner of Light". How does Taim know that the name for that banner during the age of legends was the Banner of Light. After that the banner is always refereed to the Banner of Light in the rest of the books.

 

LoC chapter 55, Dumai Wells

 

"Grady, raise the Banner of Light!" Taim called, and the Power made his voice boom. On flows of Air, Jur Grady lifted the crimson banner out of a surprised Dobraine’s hand and raised it all the way through the hole in the top of the dome".

[Nightstrike]

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

Jordan: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

 

Brandon said Taim was never a nice guy. I think he must have been trained by people like Ishamael, or maybe other evil masters with insights into stuff like that.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred.

 

Then you're also wrong.

[Duskfire]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred. Another clue to this happens during the battle of Dumai Wells. Taim is the first person in the books to call the banner with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol on it the "Banner of Light". How does Taim know that the name for that banner during the age of legends was the Banner of Light. After that the banner is always refereed to the Banner of Light in the rest of the books.

 

LoC chapter 55, Dumai Wells

 

"Grady, raise the Banner of Light!" Taim called, and the Power made his voice boom. On flows of Air, Jur Grady lifted the crimson banner out of a surprised Dobraine’s hand and raised it all the way through the hole in the top of the dome".

 

If taim really was meant to be Demandred, then where was Osan`gar meant to be sent to, since it hardly makes any sense to have two forsaken in the same place.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Aran'gar and Measanna were but kinda nearly in the same place. Maybe Taim was put there to be so obviously a bad guy they were hoping Dshiva/Oran'gar wouldn't of been noticed.

[Morsker]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred.

 

I'm disappointed in how many people are content simply to refute this, and especially to pick fights with people who say it, instead of explaining the source of confusion. The #1 source of trauma to LTT was Ileyna's death. #2 is that three of his generals betrayed him to the Shadow: Demandred, Be'lal, and Sammael. This is why the voice always rants about trust, betrayal and needing to kill male channelers. Promoting Taim set off this ranting, and the voice mentioned Demandred; that's all.

 

The problem is that the books don't portray this trauma as clearly as the trauma over Ilyena's death, so many readers are left with no explanation for the voice's behavior around Taim, except that Taim is Demandred.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred.

I'm disappointed in how many people are content simply to refute this.

To be fair though, RJ was content to simply refute it. And, as this is a forum dedicated to his work, it's really not difficult to look every few pages in any Demandred/Taim related thread (Also plenty that originally had nothing to do with them) and see someone quote RJ as saying that Taim isn't and never was Demandred. Oh, and was surprised that people would even think that. Just saying. :]

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred.

I'm disappointed in how many people are content simply to refute this.

To be fair though, RJ was content to simply refute it. And, as this is a forum dedicated to his work, it's really not difficult to look every few pages in any Demandred/Taim related thread (Also plenty that originally had nothing to do them) and see someone quote RJ as saying that Taim isn't and never was Demandred. Oh, and was surprised that people would even think that. Just saying. :]

 

Yea, the thing that gets me is, RJ, as many have said, has refuted all of this, plainly and simply.

 

How arrogant do you have to be to

1. Saying that RJ is lying outright.

2. Assuming that they know better than RJ and others regarding this plotline.

3. Assuming to know so much (when the story isnt even finished) to say that RJ changed this.

[OptimusPrime]

I am also of the opinion that RJ originally meant Taim to be Demandred. Another clue to this happens during the battle of Dumai Wells. Taim is the first person in the books to call the banner with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol on it the "Banner of Light". How does Taim know that the name for that banner during the age of legends was the Banner of Light. After that the banner is always refereed to the Banner of Light in the rest of the books.

 

LoC chapter 55, Dumai Wells

 

"Grady, raise the Banner of Light!" Taim called, and the Power made his voice boom. On flows of Air, Jur Grady lifted the crimson banner out of a surprised Dobraine’s hand and raised it all the way through the hole in the top of the dome".

 

If taim really was meant to be Demandred, then where was Osan`gar meant to be sent to, since it hardly makes any sense to have two forsaken in the same place.

 

That, and Taim is Ishamael, and Ishamael had as much reason to know what the Banner of Light is as Demandred, and has more reasons and authority  to drop such an obvious hint, which Demandred probably wouldnt have done.

[Jeangray]

 

The #1 source of trauma to LTT was Ileyna's death. #2 is that three of his generals betrayed him to the Shadow: Demandred, Be'lal, and Sammael.

 

Very true. However it does seem to me that Taim had to be at least a very intentional red herring, because he has Demandred's signature mannerism, there was something fishy with his appearance from the POV of Bashere who had seen him previously and also, unusually for a Borderlander Taim isn't proficient in and disdainful of mundane weapons. I mean, compare and contrast with Narishma. Also, with Rand's thoughts how it is good to have something to fall back on when you can't use OP. And Taim has been captured, too, where it could have come handy.

So, yea, there are a lot of very strange incongruities about him and I can't believe that RJ included all of them by chance. 

[gambril]

People refuse to believe it but Taim = Moridin.  There are many clues such as "So called Aiel" comment, his knowing of Traveling...but the biggest clue you're ever going to find is in Winter's Heart (dunno how to use book quote thing) when Taim enters Elayne's audience hall and I quote,

 

"He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augers, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out"

 

Sound familiar?

 

*Disclaimer - anything is possible whereas RJ is concerned though so we shall soon find out for true hopefully!

[OptimusPrime]

 

The #1 source of trauma to LTT was Ileyna's death. #2 is that three of his generals betrayed him to the Shadow: Demandred, Be'lal, and Sammael.

 

Very true. However it does seem to me that Taim had to be at least a very intentional red herring, because he has Demandred's signature mannerism, there was something fishy with his appearance from the POV of Bashere who had seen him previously and also, unusually for a Borderlander Taim isn't proficient in and disdainful of mundane weapons. I mean, compare and contrast with Narishma. Also, with Rand's thoughts how it is good to have something to fall back on when you can't use OP. And Taim has been captured, too, where it could have come handy.

So, yea, there are a lot of very strange incongruities about him and I can't believe that RJ included all of them by chance.  

 

Entertain the idea of Moridin being Ishamael in Taims body then! The similarities are not there by chance, Ishamael put them there to make Rand paranoid of using the Black Tower. Thats why there are all the Darkfriend general signs like the the fists holding lightening, the red on black, the rage he feels at being told what to do by Rand, the conversion of Darkfriend Ashaman, Taims casual musing on who sent the Gray Man after the order to not kill Rand, the so-called Aiel line-which is not a general Forsaken comment, it was in Moridins PoV. Yada yada.

 

People, Demandred was never Taim. Any sign you think that draws to Demandred, it doesnt. Nothing does.

 

Think about it. Brandon has said the Big Unnoticed Thing began around book 4-6, and that we should have noticed it by now. And when Taim shows up, Bashere who knows him says, "You're Mazrim Taim?" and Taim replies with...  "What would Mazrim Taim know that only you would?"

 

Taim has a hooked nose and doesnt smile much. Thats where the Demandred similarities end. Taim being Moridin fits every single Taim oddity you can think of without being obnoxious enough to say "If Im wrong, then it was changed."

 

Mesaana and the Black Ajah got Taim to Demandred, who was told by the Dark One who would live and who would die (Taim will die, Ishamael will live) and takes Taim to Shayol Ghul, with promises of promotion. Alas, Taim dies, Ishamael gets the body and the name Moridin, alters his public appearance with the True Power, then goes and sees Rand, reverting back to Taims original face-the one Rand sees at Shadar Logoth-when he deals with the other Chosen because they know Taim is now Ishamael returned, hence why none of the Forsaken even acknowledge Taims existence.

 

EDIT: Sorry, Im at work and typos are all too common, cant believe I said True Power instead of Black Tower.

[darth_hel]

If he is using Taim's body then why would he change his appearance when pretending to be Taim? Wouldn't t be better to use Taim's normal appearance when acting as Taim in case he meets anyone that had seen Taim, and a disguise when he goes to Shadar Logoth in case Rand sees him?

[OptimusPrime]

If he is using Taim's body then why would he change his appearance when pretending to be Taim? Wouldn't t be better to use Taim's normal appearance when acting as Taim in case he meets anyone that had seen Taim, and a disguise when he goes to Shadar Logoth in case Rand sees him?

 

To mess with people. To mess with the Light, it allows him to change to Taims actual appearance and simply walk right past Rand, as long as nobody there recognises the real Taim face. Also having two seperate identities, one as Taim the M'Hael, another as Ishamael/Moridin the Nae'blis, he has two seperate places in the Shadow that he can use to get these useless third Age Ashaman to do what he wants without letting anyone else in on the good stuff, ie the control of them. He needs to keep his real Taim face for the name Moridin, so the other Forsaken know who he is. But the fact that he uses a different face as Taim means its that bit harder for everyone to find out that Taim is dead and has been usurped by the Betrayer of Hope, who is doing again the same thing he did before, but on the quiet this time. Altering the face makes it all that more difficult for anyone whose not looking for the clues to find it.

 

I said earlier in this thread that when Rand channeled the True Power in TGS that he saw a face as usual, but without the Shadar Logoth reference. That makes me wonder if it was the True Power altered face of the M'Hael, but Rand didnt pick up on it in the frantic situation. If he had noticed , he would have realised what was going on; he sees Moridin because theyre connected, sees "Taim" when he channels the True Power, realizes theyre the same dude, kicks himself for not noticing it earlier. But this part is based purely on Rand saying whose face he saw after he identified Moridin as the man at Shadar Logoth every single time he saw the face, and then not making that reference again when he channeled the True Power. Bur... it was generally a messy situation and Rand probably didnt care whose face he saw.

[Thor]

Right this is ridiculous. Taim is not Morridin, for one thing, Morridin is taller than Taim, height is one of the things that can seriously mess up one power disguises.

[OptimusPrime]

Right this is ridiculous. Taim is not Morridin, for one thing, Morridin is taller than Taim, height is one of the things that can seriously mess up one power disguises.

 

Its a True Power disguise, which isnt an illusion. Not a Mask of Mirrors.

[Fains nose]

Seriously Taim is Taim and anyone who thinks otherwise is a mug. He is probably an evil darkfriend/forsaken fluffer/protege, but he is Mazrim Taim, get it through your thick skulls and when ToM comes out you will realise how wrong you were

[Majsju]

Right this is ridiculous. Taim is not Morridin, for one thing, Morridin is taller than Taim, height is one of the things that can seriously mess up one power disguises.

 

Not that I am a believer in MoriTaim, but remember KOD? Semirhage, who is taller than the avergae guy, quite successfully uses MoM to pose as tiny Tuon.

[Sharaman]

I've had this argument with Drekka Mort on another thread.

His idea is not that it's Mask of Mirrors, it's some sort of Slayer-like actual physical transformation of Taim to Moridin at will (only with one personality inhabiting the body, not two).

It sounds absurd but he apparently believes it. It can't be refuted because it's so out of left field there are no textual references either way. It is also so weird that nobody ever asked RJ if such a thing was a regular occurrence.

 

MoM is easily dismissed for Taim-Moridin because both Moridin and Taim go through being physically touched (in Shadar Logoth; by Finn, by Rand; by Saldeans) which guarantees that they're the height and arms-reach etc that they respectively appear to be.

 

Semi could be pretty sure that nobody would try to touch Tuon, which meant she was relatively safe.

BTW I've always wondered if MoM is disturbed by rain? It should be, since it's disturbed by any touch. That would make it a dicey thing in practice, especially for a "permanent" user like Mesaana and Moggy, since they'd have to avoid any bad weather.

 

 

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

I've had this argument with Drekka Mort on another thread.

His idea is not that it's Mask of Mirrors, it's some sort of Slayer-like actual physical transformation of Taim to Moridin at will (only with one personality inhabiting the body, not two).

It sounds absurd but he apparently believes it. It can't be refuted because it's so out of left field there are no textual references either way. It is also so weird that nobody ever asked RJ if such a thing was a regular occurrence.

 

MoM is easily dismissed for Taim-Moridin because both Moridin and Taim go through being physically touched (in Shadar Logoth; by Finn, by Rand; by Saldeans) which guarantees that they're the height and arms-reach etc that they respectively appear to be.

 

Semi could be pretty sure that nobody would try to touch Tuon, which meant she was relatively safe.

BTW I've always wondered if MoM is disturbed by rain? It should be, since it's disturbed by any touch. That would make it a dicey thing in practice, especially for a "permanent" user like Mesaana and Moggy, since they'd have to avoid any bad weather.

 

 

I did say earlier that I know its a big stretch, it does involve an unhealthy ammount of speculation. I do think shapechange has hints for it but Im ok with being the only one that sees it as a possibility. I also said I would spout the theory whenever people talk about Taimandred being changed. With this theory Im not simply going off a few mannerisms and I dont have to dispute RJ quotes to believe it.

[Luckers]

Actually the name of the weave is Mirror of Mists. The references to it under 'Mask of Mirrors', which Jordan stated was a mistake, were later altered for reprints, including the chapter title in LoC.

[talligan]

Taim seems to have gone through a change though. When you first meet him at the end of book 5/beginning of book 6 he genuinely seems to care for Rand/the cause and the black tower. Notably the instance where rand clutches the table and starts raving about LTT and Taim looks genuinely concerned (outside of concern for his own health) and replies something along the lines of "for all our sakes you must hold on".

 

He seems more ... arrogant now then he did. Maybe the real Taim got switched out with someone else along the way?

[Duskfire]

Taim seems to have gone through a change though. When you first meet him at the end of book 5/beginning of book 6 he genuinely seems to care for Rand/the cause and the black tower. Notably the instance where rand clutches the table and starts raving about LTT and Taim looks genuinely concerned (outside of concern for his own health) and replies something along the lines of "for all our sakes you must hold on".

 

He seems more ... arrogant now then he did. Maybe the real Taim got switched out with someone else along the way?

 

Not really. He was arrogant early on too, its just that he occasionally showed flashes of concern for Rand. however, he hasn't really been in it all that much since LoC for us to fully gauge whether those same flashes of sympathy would occur if he spent a long time around the Dragon Reborn. basically, we don't see enough of him to know whether he has actually changed.

 

Moridin also showed concern for Rand too, or close enough to it for him. So that doesn't really mean anything. Bad guys can have feelings too  :P (Although in Moridins case, it was probably more regret then concern, but anyhow.)

[Vermillion]

People refuse to believe it but Taim = Moridin.  There are many clues such as "So called Aiel" comment, his knowing of Traveling...but the biggest clue you're ever going to find is in Winter's Heart (dunno how to use book quote thing) when Taim enters Elayne's audience hall and I quote,

 

"He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augers, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out"

 

Sound familiar?

 

*Disclaimer - anything is possible whereas RJ is concerned though so we shall soon find out for true hopefully!

 

"not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light" is the part you left out.  It is an interesting description though considering Rand.

 

If anything Taim seems like he is going to be Rand's Demandred.  Becoming a one of the Chosen out of envy or turning. I think we will see turning in this book at the Black Tower.

[villanueva]

Is it possible that Taim has already become one of the Chosen?  The DO just hasn't told anyone about it yet.  Much like how the DO didn't immediately announce the rebirth of Moridin, Cyndane, etc...  It would fit that he could command the Shadowspawn to attack Rand in Tear.  Also, that bit about letting the Lord of Chaos rule; something I would think only one of the Chosen would know about.