Egwene's Reign (speculation & possible spoilers)

[DemandredFO]

I understand that leaders can't have insubordination, Gareth and Suian probably know that.  Gawyn's an idiot and thus doesn't count.  I'm sure they'd take reproof, or at least Gareth would being a military, with fairly good grace.  It's just that Egwene doesn't acknowledge to them or herself, hey guys, what you did was wrong but I thank you anyway.  Not saying as the Amarlyn she should take unnecessary risks.  In real life when you do that you have a high chance of dying.

 

yoniy0, sure execute a Great Captian and Suian Sanche and that's a recipe for disaster.  Plus, as another poster said, I believe I recall Egwene saying if it appears my life is in danger, you can get me.  Did Suian abuse that statement, no; only upon invasion did she come get her.

[lillcheese]

I seem to recall Egwene saying that she'd only accept a rescue if it seemed that her life was in real danger. I'd say that a Seanchan attack on the Tower, coupled with the fact that Egwene had just been yanked out of the World of Dreams would definitely seem life threatening to Siuan and co. No matter what Egwene's wishes are, she is the Amyrlin. She is a political leader of extreme importance as has already been mentioned. Even though she succeeded in the end, it didn't look like it at the time to Siuan. Rescuing her was the best course of action given the information they had available.

 

actually, Egwene said that if it looked like Elaida was going to execute her, they could come to her rescue.  I think the problem was not that they staged the rescue attempt, but they followed through on it after it was quite clear the raid was over.  When they found her, her life was no longer in danger.  They knew (or should be able to infer) that her sudden waking from chatting with Suian had nothing to do with Elaida deciding to finally execute her. 

[cgilbertmc]

knowing Amyrlin's anger, the poster who said seanchan is correct, I think but more specifically, I think Egwene will know rand is right, something like, "I know he's right but I can't let him know that and that fact will piss her off even more.

Incidently, we can see Egwene hasn't changed when she gets pissed at Bryne and Gawyn rescuing her, logic and training should tell her that being unguarded when an enemy has just retreated, not smart.

 

The part here about "I know he's right..." sounds like it could be a quote out of almost any of the books.  The attitude taken towards men is so derisive it borders on sickness sometimes.  Egwene's inability to mature into a woman who can understand and dislike these "male" issues may just be turned around when when she sees what Rand/Nynaeve/&co. have accomplished without the precious guidance of the Amyrlin & co.  In fact, as stated in the quote above, she is going to have to in order to survive TG and IMO the fem & male are going to have a relationship of quality, revitalizing the progress made in the Age of Legends.  Besides, if they wan to truly seal the DO, they'll need saidar and saidin together!

 

The attitudes DO get tiresome. But remember in all tis. Egwene (and everybody else real or imagined) are products of their society. Randland has been a matriarchal society for thousands of years, since the breaking. Men have been relegated to (in many eyes) strong backs, weak minds, fit only to do what someone wiser (female) tells them to do. No man is trusted with non-source healing, though anyone can administer herbs, poultices and/or set a bone, with training. Most towns are ruled by women's circles who have veto and dictatorial power over any council of elders.

 

That being said...Egwene shares in her society's views that since Rand is a man, he must be managed, or at the very least, advised, to do the right thing since as a man, he is just to muddle-headed to know the right way to tie his shoes.

Her attitude has definitely matured and I see the glimmerings of her treating Rand as a peer. Not necessarily equal, but definitely a peer.

 

Regarding comparing her captivity to Rand's; One can only see and understand the trials of others through the veil of one's own experiences. She never said her captivity was as grueling as Rand's. She DID acknowledge that she now understands some of what he went through. There is not another person in her world (that we know of) who could approach the level of empathy that Egwene has of Rand's ordeal.

 

If wise, she will use the assets she has to their individual strengths.

Good start on using Reds to manage the Black Tower. Don't get me wrong...the plan is frought with danger and disaster if not handled well, but by giving Reds a mission similar though transformed, she stops another potential schism by giving them purpose.

Additionally, she has Silviana to remind her every time she starts behaving like Elaida. That should bring her up short if she goes unilateral or megalomaniacal.

I do like Egwene's POV but I do understand the frustration if not the animosity some feel toward her character.

[yoniy0]

lillcheese, thanks. Yeah, I too seem to recall that she said SHE would authorize a rescue if it seemed Elaida was going to have her executed. NOT that Siuan could decide on her own. Siuan then continued to caution that Egwene might not have time to contact them in that case, and Egwene decided to accept the risk of that happening (they did change the meetings schedule to once per day).

 

By the way, I do agree that the major offence Siuan and Gareth did (Gawyn could claim not to be her subordinate) was to smuggle her out of the Tower after the attack was over (they could have easily left a few guards just to make sure she isn't harmed by any Seanchan forces left behind).

I also agree that she probably should have told them that the basic sentiment behind the rescue is appreciated. And I recognize that Egwene herself has never been obedient to a fault.

However, none of that is a valid excuse for what Siuan and Gareth did. Those are mitigating circumstances, and they should earn them consideration, but really, how did Egwene punish them? Deciding not to rely as heavily as before on Siuan. Ouch. Cruel and unusual punishment if I ever saw one :).

[Thetheroo]

its not gareths fault and egwene knows it and she doesent blame him he went to protect the women he loves as for siuan well she at lest that she was doing the right thing and anyway it will be hard for siuand not being in the lope but i have a feeling she'll worm her way backi in shes a smart women even if shes a little annoying

[Charles Mahan]

I think The Tower is quite possibly more under the sway of the Amrylin Seat at the end of TGS than it has been at any point since Artur Hawkwing and quite possibly since before that.  At the end of TGS the remaining sisters are traumatized at all levels of their society.  This is not a group of women who easily bend knee to anyone.  For 3000 years, their pride and stubborn individualism combined with enter ajah tensions, have made for a relatively weak central government.  By the end of TGS, their pride and sense of superiority and invulnerability have been shattered by revelations regarding just how prevalent the Black Ajah turned out to be, the Seanchan raid, months of rebellion, the turmoil within both camps, the sudden rise of the male channelers, the emergence of the Dragon Reborn, strange spoliage which even their wards can't prevent, the re-emergence of talents long since thought lost...  The list of earth shattering revelations and disasters goes on and on from the point of view of the average sister. 

 

Then to have Egwene rise to prominence within the tower despite Elaida's treatement of her practically glowing with every positive quality the sisters value, and for her to emerge as the key factor in repelling the Seanchan raid, combined with her own obvious commanding presence and rock solid will...  She's the rock that shaken group of sisters will cling to.  Any port in a storm, and they have been thoroughly rocked by storms.  More she represents a return of Aes Sedai prominence.  A chance for sisters to get back out in the world and contribute to preparing for the last battle.  Many will leap at the chance, the blues, greens, grays and yellows in particular. 

 

I suspect they'll do just about anything even remotely reasonable that she asks of them at this point.  The sitters may grumble a bit, but they'll do in light of all the disasters and with TG on their doorstep.  Especially now that Black Ajah has been largely purged and cannot effectively influence public opinion.  If she says supportthe Dragon, even the reds wll follow.  If she says make peace with the Black Tower in exchange for the reds being allowed to bond male channelers, they'll go along with it.  And if she says non-aggression pact with the Seanchan, and that's the best Rand will get her to agree to, they will accept it.  She has an enormous pool of political capital, and she will need every shred.

 

Now as to why she couldn't just take the SAS to Rand after becoming Amyrlin, it's easy to forget how weak she was when first raised. She was a puppet.  A puppet who was tugging at the strings in an attempt to maniplate the fingers of the puppeteers, but a puppet nonetheless.  They wouldn't have followed her anywhere without the declaration of war on the tower, and once that was achieved she couldn't very well drop the war with the tower to pursue relations with Rand.  She had to see it through, any deviation from that path would have cost her the support of the SAS.  It's also important to remember that at no point did she have more than half the Aes Sedai.  At one point there was an estimation in the books that roughly 1/3 of the Aes Sedai were with Egwene, 1/3 with Elaida, and the rest were sitting it out on the sidelines out of the tower.

 

I would have to consider the purging of the Black Ajah to be the opening round in the Last Battle.  It's a shot across the Dark One's bow. It cost him several hundred deep cover assassins and sabateours before the fighting proper even started.  My assumption had always been that the channeling forces would probably be evenly balanced at the Last battle.  The loss of most members of the Black Ajah is not crippling, there are plenty of other dark friend channelers that can be brought into play, but if Rand brings the Seanchan to his side, and prohecy says he will, then the forces of light should have a substantial advantage in the number of channelers.  To restore balance to the fight, a sizable force of Shadow aligned(not necessarily dark friend) channelers will need to be found, or some genuinely ridiculous number of shadowspawn or other shadow aligned non-channelers will need to be found to balance out the OP superiority of the forces of light.  This seems to be one of the strongest arguements for the probable arrival of dreadlords from the Isle of Madmen, or a sizable force from Shara. 

 

I kinda expect the Shadow's response to the Black Ajah purging to be a destruction of the Knights Templar/Jedai style attack where Dark Friends break cover all around Randland and act as Channeler assassins in an effort to capitalize on the strength of the Dark Friends their deep cover agent status.  It will largely cripple the Dark Friend networks, but it's one of the opening shots in the Last Battle and would be perhaps the best use of these forces.

 

Anyway just some thoughts I've been kicking about.

[yoniy0]

That was cool, and I couldn't agree more.

I only wanted to mention this theory I've been kicking around, that the last third of the Tower isn't just waiting somewhere to see how the conflict ends, but is actively trying to fight the DO, perhaps under Cadsuane's influence. My only two reasons for suspecting that (other than the fact that Cadsuane seems cool enough to orchestrate such an effort) are what Meris said to the SAS Hall ("me, I won't stand with anyone who thinks other sisters are their enemy" or something to that effect) and Cadsuane seeming to find accomplices wherever she goes.

[azrael.1289]

A mature Egwene would have understood why Siuan and co did what they did. She should have been able to see things from Siuan's perspective and acknowledge to herself atleast that what they did was the best course of action from Siuan's pov.

A more mature person would have understood that no one is to blame in that situation as there was a justifiable reason for Siuan to have pulled her out of the tower.

[Crossroad]

I think Sanderson is going to Turn Rand into a whimp, and he going to go around on bended knee to all the woman in series and ask there forgiveness over his bad behavour toward them.

 

Egwene will be in heaven a Rand she can bully again.

[Calderis]

I think Sanderson is going to Turn Rand into a whimp, and he going to go around on bended knee to all the woman in series and ask there forgiveness over his bad behavour toward them.

 

Egwene will be in heaven a Rand she can bully again.

 

Because Sanderson has control on character direction.

[SuperFade]

I think Sanderson is going to Turn Rand into a whimp, and he going to go around on bended knee to all the woman in series and ask there forgiveness over his bad behavour toward them.

 

Egwene will be in heaven a Rand she can bully again.

 

I seriously, seriously hope this doesn't happen. The number of times a man openly defies a woman and gets away with it in this series can practically be counted on one hand. I don't think it'll happen, but this is the Wheel of Time...

 

Hopefully, Egwene's new 'maturity' (And I use the word with the highest contempt - I don't believe she has matured at all) will let her see things from Rand's point of view.

[Crossroad]

I think Sanderson is going to Turn Rand into a whimp, and he going to go around on bended knee to all the woman in series and ask there forgiveness over his bad behavour toward them.

 

Egwene will be in heaven a Rand she can bully again.

 

I seriously, seriously hope this doesn't happen. The number of times a man openly defies a woman and gets away with it in this series can practically be counted on one hand. I don't think it'll happen, but this is the Wheel of Time...

 

Hopefully, Egwene's new 'maturity' (And I use the word with the highest contempt - I don't believe she has matured at all) will let her see things from Rand's point of view.

 

I hope so myself but I haven't seen anything so far that shows Egwene has matured.  She couldn't even see it from Siuan point of view regarding the rescue only how it effected her plans.  Rand, Perrin and Mat are doomed.  The only woman in this whole series who had any sort of influence over the Boys has been Moiraine and has been the only person they have thought could help with there situation.  If u look at all the Boys POV lately they've all thought about Moiraine and how they could have advised them on there own situation.

 

I can't see Egwene or any other female in this book who commands that sort of respect from the boys.

[yoniy0]

This thread should be called the Egwene-bashing thread, for what you guys are doing. I don't mind that per se, I was an Egwene-hater myself (well, hate is a strong word) until KoD.

But in this instance you're simply wrong. I think that stems from the fact that you're looking at this whole thing from the wrong perspective. Egwene and Siuan aren't just friends that got pulled into a war. Let me put it this way: have you ever served in the army (I guess I should ask about 'an army', but most of you guys strike me as American)? As a former officer I can tell you this much: if one of your people act against your orders, his/her frame of mind while doing so isn't your chief concern. Even if his/her motives are respectable (as opposed to someone being lazy or just plain spiteful, for example, which does happen from time to time), he/she should have known better. And you can't allow that kind of behavior to continue. Think about that for a while, and maybe you'll come around to my way of thinking. If you don't, I guess we'll respectfully disagree.

[Charles Mahan]

I think Egwene is not simply being petty with her rescuers.  She is still trying to establish herself as being firmly in command in the minds of all Aes Sedai.  Her word needs to be law, especially with the Last Battle on her doorstep.  She needs to be strong, and needs to be seen as strong. More she needs to be seen as impartial amoungst the previously warring factions.  She can't play favorites, and she can't allow these woment to start thinking that can put their own judgement above hers.  That said she can't be seen as too harsh either, and I doubt she will be. 

[dumont76]

I don't know how many of us I say this for, but I don't think it's Egwene's actions/decisions altogether that are on the chopping block, but until VERY recently, her inability to not be so petulant about everything...

 

A perfect example of my struggle with her attitude is back in tFoH when she puts Nynaeve in her place in TAR...I was proud of her and Nynaeve needed to be smacked down. At the same time she was cowering and whining (in her own mind) about Rand being arrogant which I totally disagreed with...but the Nynaeve handling: That's how she is going to rein in the WT, with that calm command, as well as her training through Siuan.  All in all I'd say we have cause to "bash" her a bit, but I can do that and still hold some of her actions in high regard

[azrael.1289]

This thread should be called the Egwene-bashing thread, for what you guys are doing. I don't mind that per se, I was an Egwene-hater myself (well, hate is a strong word) until KoD.

But in this instance you're simply wrong. I think that stems from the fact that you're looking at this whole thing from the wrong perspective. Egwene and Siuan aren't just friends that got pulled into a war. Let me put it this way: have you ever served in the army (I guess I should ask about 'an army', but most of you guys strike me as American)? As a former officer I can tell you this much: if one of your people act against your orders, his/her frame of mind while doing so isn't your chief concern. Even if his/her motives are respectable (as opposed to someone being lazy or just plain spiteful, for example, which does happen from time to time), he/she should have known better. And you can't allow that kind of behavior to continue. Think about that for a while, and maybe you'll come around to my way of thinking. If you don't, I guess we'll respectfully disagree.

I can see why she treated Siuan that way. But my complaint is her way of thinking. Will it destroy the world for her to accept Siuan's pov in her mind? That is why I said she needed to acknowledge to herself atleast that what Siuan did was justifiable.  

 

And no, I don't hate Egwene. Infact I like reading her chapters very much. I like her because she is arrogant, immature and also kicks ***. So, I just don't understand how anyone can call her mature.

[SuperFade]

I'll admit that I really don't like Egwene, and maybe that's clouding my perceptions. However, it really does erk me that everyone in-universe raves about what a wonderful Amyrlin she'll be, despite the fact that she's really only been standing on the shoulders of Siuan and co. In my mind she hasn't matured at all, merely become more skilled at manipulation.

 

Siuan's rescue was against orders, I'll agree. Rescuing Egwene when she was clearly safe was also wrong. Siuan being chastised bothers me a little, but that's not the main reason that scene annoyed me. The main reason is that Egwene never even thought about Siuan's perspective, only about how her own plans were ruined. She refuses to acknowledge that Siuan may have actually had a damn good reason for her insubordination, namely, the possibility of her imminent horrible death.

 

Egwene has not matured. She still thinks in terms of controlling Rand rather than helping him. It's not some ruse to control the Hall, either; we see it in her thought processes. She was with Moiraine when she explained how to advise Rand as well, yet seems to have forgotten all about it. It's a shame because it's obvious that RJ and BS are trying to tell us that she's matured, but I honestly can't see it.

 

I really don't want to start a flame war. I thought Egwene was awesome the first time I read through TGS, but on closer inspection on subsequent readthroughs it just seems like she hasn't changed from her arrogant nature in the first half of the series.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I'll admit that I really don't like Egwene, and maybe that's clouding my perceptions. However, it really does erk me that everyone in-universe raves about what a wonderful Amyrlin she'll be, despite the fact that she's really only been standing on the shoulders of Siuan and co. In my mind she hasn't matured at all, merely become more skilled at manipulation.

 

Siuan's rescue was against orders, I'll agree. Rescuing Egwene when she was clearly safe was also wrong. Siuan being chastised bothers me a little, but that's not the main reason that scene annoyed me. The main reason is that Egwene never even thought about Siuan's perspective, only about how her own plans were ruined. She refuses to acknowledge that Siuan may have actually had a damn good reason for her insubordination, namely, the possibility of her imminent horrible death.

 

Egwene has not matured. She still thinks in terms of controlling Rand rather than helping him. It's not some ruse to control the Hall, either; we see it in her thought processes. She was with Moiraine when she explained how to advise Rand as well, yet seems to have forgotten all about it. It's a shame because it's obvious that RJ and BS are trying to tell us that she's matured, but I honestly can't see it.

 

I really don't want to start a flame war. I thought Egwene was awesome the first time I read through TGS, but on closer inspection on subsequent readthroughs it just seems like she hasn't changed from her arrogant nature in the first half of the series.

 

Then you shouldn't be hating Egwene so much as the whole entire world of of Randland females, because most of them think that men are idiots with no brain between them, and that most of them simply 'carry their brains in their muscles.'  Compared to that, I think that Egwene's attitude is actually comparitively quite encouraging, and I am hoping for improvements in the future.

[azrael.1289]

Then you shouldn't be hating Egwene so much as the whole entire world of of Randland females, because most of them think that men are idiots with no brain between them, and that most of them simply 'carry their brains in their muscles.'  Compared to that, I think that Egwene's attitude is actually comparitively quite encouraging, and I am hoping for improvements in the future.

Difference is people who like Nynaeve or Elayne or pretty much any other character who is arrogant, mostly accept when people call them arrongant. But, call Egwene arrogant and well, just read the thread.

 

And woot.....100th post  ;D

[Durinax]

Then you shouldn't be hating Egwene so much as the whole entire world of of Randland females, because most of them think that men are idiots with no brain between them, and that most of them simply 'carry their brains in their muscles.'  Compared to that, I think that Egwene's attitude is actually comparitively quite encouraging, and I am hoping for improvements in the future.

Difference is people who like Nynaeve or Elayne or pretty much any other character who is arrogant, mostly accept when people call them arrongant. But, call Egwene arrogant and well, just read the thread.

 

And woot.....100th post  ;D

Elayne is also not the most arrogent among the three women, nor is Nynaeve. They both think men can be very useful if handled properly. Egwene on the other hand has made me believe that she thinks that men are only tools to be used in the last resort, especially how she told Gawyn to sit in the corner until I have time for you

[yoniy0]

Gawyn's a tool. I'd have treated him the same way.

[azrael.1289]

Gawyn's a tool. I'd have treated him the same way.

But Egwene is supposed to be in love with him  :o

[Aquarius]

Gawyn's a tool. I'd have treated him the same way.

But Egwene is supposed to be in love with him  :o

Don't forget Egwene is now deep into AS politics.

1 She's got other fish to fry at the moment

2 She cannot afford to be seen talking to a young man like that in front of a whole bunch of AS.

[Elgee]

Think of it this way: Egwene is now the CEO of the world's (second) largest Multinational Corporation, not some love-sick teenager at the school prom. Gawyn is the love interest of said CEO, not of the Prom Queen. Their behaviour and decisions affects the very lives (not just the way people get to live their lives, but whether or not they actually REMAIN alive) of millions of people.

 

So yeah - when Egwene gets pissy with Gawyn for something he does, or doesn't do, it's not as trivial as if he's flirted with her best friend Betty-Sue.

[azrael.1289]

Gawyn's a tool. I'd have treated him the same way.

But Egwene is supposed to be in love with him  :o

Don't forget Egwene is now deep into AS politics.

1 She's got other fish to fry at the moment

2 She cannot afford to be seen talking to a young man like that in front of a whole bunch of AS.

I know that....I was commenting more on the fact that she is in love with a tool.. ;)