Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[subwoofer]

I have been looking for a Blademaster page. IMHO- Lan is the best. But... it has been posed that Gawyn (gag) is a better swordsman than Lan. What is the current rankings of WoT Blademasters? Woof™.

[didymos]

It would also explain how the Finns have an interpreter who talks Randish (the new tongue).

 

That was already explained: the Firsts of Mayene used it up until three hundred years ago when it was short-sightedly traded to Tear, and they regularly allowed other people to go through as well. And the interpreter they had was out of date, to boot. Rand said "she talked like an old book" and some words were almost indecipherable.

Edited October 24, 2010 by didymos

[dovien]

I have been looking for a Blademaster page. IMHO- Lan is the best. But... it has been posed that Gawyn (gag) is a better swordsman than Lan. What is the current rankings of WoT Blademasters? Woof™.

 

I haven't seen a Blademaster ranking but I can assure you Gawyn is nowhere near as good as Lan.

[Sid]

I have been looking for a Blademaster page. IMHO- Lan is the best. But... it has been posed that Gawyn (gag) is a better swordsman than Lan. What is the current rankings of WoT Blademasters? Woof™.

 

I haven't seen a Blademaster ranking but I can assure you Gawyn is nowhere near as good as Lan.

I can assure you that I think him being better than Lan is kind of silly, but there is nothing to say that he isn't as good as or better than Lan at this point. He beat a guy that beat Lan one-on-one a few times, and Sleete had the help of another warder when Gawyn beat him. This means nothing concrete except that we know for sure that he's better than Sleete is now, but it leaves the door open for the possibility.

[AparnaVengakkad]

Question:

Was Rand touched by the Shadar Logoth taint? He was with Mat the whole time he had the dagger so isn't it possible?

And then he was attacked by Fain and the wound couldn't all that have contributed to his darkness as much as his multiple "box" incidents.

[Val Mickey]

It would also explain how the Finns have an interpreter who talks Randish (the new tongue).

 

That was already explained: the Firsts of Mayene used it up until three hundred years ago when it was short-sightedly traded to Tear, and they regularly allowed other people to go through as well. And the interpreter they had was out of date, to boot. Rand said "she talked like an old book" and some words were almost indecipherable.

 

*bows humbly

[Reeds]

Ok a question, when did Rand's Channelling Sickness start? You know were he embraces the source, see's double, shudders and for all intents and purposes is incapacitated for a while?

 

Just cause I re-read the scene in KoD when Semirhage blows off his hand and as he is getting up off the ground, he embraces the source and it is specifically mentioned that lewis therin doesn't fight him, and there is NO sickness. If there is a connection between the two, this could be important after VoG. I seem to remember Rand running around in Path of Daggers always holding the source because of the sickness.

[Sid]

That started happening after the incident in ACoS where his balefire crossed Moridin's balefire in Shadar Logoth.

[Reeds]

Thought so. Any idea why there is no problem in the scene mentioned? Is there a discussion about it elsewhere? I would like to read it.

[Duskfire]

Thought so. Any idea why there is no problem in the scene mentioned? Is there a discussion about it elsewhere? I would like to read it.

 

I was under the impression that Rand gets channeling sickness when Moridin channels, and vice versa. Which is why Moridin didn't participate in the Cleansing. I could be wrong however.

[Val Mickey]

Question:

Was Rand touched by the Shadar Logoth taint? He was with Mat the whole time he had the dagger so isn't it possible?

And then he was attacked by Fain and the wound couldn't all that have contributed to his darkness as much as his multiple "box" incidents.

 

AFAIK Mat hadn't started infecting other people because the SL taint hadn't conquered him yet. I can't seem to remember if Verin explains this in TGH, but Moirane had him shielded. As for Fain's attack, that taint is still fighting with the DO taint from Ishamael. Rand has handled that very dagger in TGH, but nothing has happened to him so far.

 

It is an intriguing thought, though post-VOG it is merely academic. The SL taint seems to work on hatred and suspicion, while Rand's madness focuses on keeping LTT away, with only touches of suspicion. And he can be justified in his suspicion of others - almost everyone else has ulterior motives. So I'd vote against it.

[didymos]

Question:

Was Rand touched by the Shadar Logoth taint? He was with Mat the whole time he had the dagger so isn't it possible?

 

Possible only if he had carried the dagger for as long as Mat did. RJ has said Mat wasn't contagious, despite AS fears on that score:

 

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

Even Fain is only contagious to a limited extent:

Fain might be said to be contagious in the sense that he corrupts those he is around long enough, but not in the sense that they then have something communicable. As for his influence over people, remember that Fain is now an amalgam of Fain and Mordeth, and Mordeth was a counselor, quite accustomed to and skilled in gaining the ears of the mighty.

 

And then he was attacked by Fain and the wound couldn't all that have contributed to his darkness as much as his multiple "box" incidents.

 

Uncertain. It, like the other wound, has been sort of sealed of behind a "shield", or so it seems anyway. Still it must be noted that Brandon raised the possibility himself (though refused to confirm it was true):

 

Matt: So, his influence...how long, for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?

Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the [same] person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, natural tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...

Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene, she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…

Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…

Matt: ...so, the suggestion is, not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia; there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…

Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…

Matt: ...that is another source…

 

 

It's worth noting that there seems to be some contradiction: Fain was able to do various tricks without the dagger, and he also infected Elaida before he retrieved it from the WT storeroom. Also, he definitely messed up his guards in Fal Dara in tGH when Mat was still carrying the dagger. And Niall, and all those Whitecloaks he took to the Two Rivers. Dude actually didn't retrieve that dagger until well into The Fires Of Heaven. I.e., I think it's safe to say RJ misspoke when he said it wasn't Fain but the dagger. I think he may have actually been trying to say that Mat would have become infectious in that way had he not been quasi-contained, and for Mat it would only work if he had the dagger (or something else from Shadar Logoth). Makes some sense, if you think about it: Could Mordeth have single-handedly infected the entire population of Aridhol? And the idea seems to be that the SL taint seeped into the city and the ground on which it was built after it had infected the people, which suggests that Mordeth brought it, infected the higher ups and it then seeped into those around them, and so on. On the other hand, I've never quite understood why Mordeth so desparately craved that dagger. Supposedly, anything from SL would be tainted and corrupting, so how could the dagger be necessary? But then again we have RJ saying Mat wasn't contagious...so who the hell knows?

Edited October 24, 2010 by didymos

[rambling]

I've only just finished reading the series for the first time so I'm probably missing the obvious, but, why did Rand destroy the Choedan Kal?

I mean, is he not being a little rash?

Is it just a temper tantrum? Or has he worked out the entire game plan?

Is he now going to go everywhere accompanied by two others just so he can use Callandor?

Or is he going to hug the baddies to death?

 

Ok, I'm being flippant, but what have I missed?

[Durinax]

I think its mostly mordeth, pre fain having the dagger when he corrupts people it is through mordeth tainting the guards, whitecloaks, and even elaida. post dagger retrieval it seems like the corruption fed upon itself kind of like how the one AS described sex with logain

[Sharaman]

I've only just finished reading the series for the first time so I'm probably missing the obvious, but, why did Rand destroy the Choedan Kal?

I mean, is he not being a little rash?

Is it just a temper tantrum? Or has he worked out the entire game plan?

Is he now going to go everywhere accompanied by two others just so he can use Callandor?

Or is he going to hug the baddies to death?

 

Ok, I'm being flippant, but what have I missed?

 

Partly I think he destroyed it because it was too tempting to use it to solve problems.

Partly I think he destroyed it for fear that some other saidin channeler, possibly one that owed allegiance to the GLoD, would get hold of it. That could have happened if Semirhage, Shaidar and co. had bothered.

[GYLD]

On the other hand, I've never quite understood why Mordeth so desparately craved that dagger. Supposedly, anything from SL would be tainted and corrupting, so how could the dagger be necessary? But then again we have RJ saying Mat wasn't contagious...so who the hell knows?

 

The dagger in of itself is nothing special other than the fact it's from Shadar Logath and it has already been carried out of the city. What stops him, or did stop him should I say considering the city is one big pit now, from returning and replacing his Precious with a rock on the ground is that the Mordeth part of Fain fears becoming trapped in the city again. If, say, Perrin took one of those jeweled axes from all the way back in TEotW with him, Fain would be just as content with that as he would the dagger.

 

I had wondered this myself until I accidentally stumbled upon the answer myself while going back through some of the earlier books. Unfortunately I don't have a book and chapter number on hand so you'll have to take my word for it until I find the quote.

 

...Personally though, I think I would've sent one of my Dark Friend flunkies into the city rather than infiltrate the White Tower.

[didymos]

On the other hand, I've never quite understood why Mordeth so desparately craved that dagger. Supposedly, anything from SL would be tainted and corrupting, so how could the dagger be necessary? But then again we have RJ saying Mat wasn't contagious...so who the hell knows?

 

The dagger in of itself is nothing special other than the fact it's from Shadar Logath and it has already been carried out of the city. What stops him, or did stop him should I say considering the city is one big pit now, from returning and replacing his Precious with a rock on the ground is that the Mordeth part of Fain fears becoming trapped in the city again. If, say, Perrin took one of those jeweled axes from all the way back in TEotW with him, Fain would be just as content with that as he would the dagger.

 

I had wondered this myself until I accidentally stumbled upon the answer myself while going back through some of the earlier books. Unfortunately I don't have a book and chapter number on hand so you'll have to take my word for it until I find the quote.

 

Right, OK. I know what you're talking about. Still, it was kinda strange that he just had to have any object. It made him feel "whole", but why should it be able to do that? The suggestion in tFoH is that he really does need some physical object with the corruption in it, but it's not at all clear why he needs one. I don't know: maybe it's some sort of "anchor" for the Mordeth part of him, somewhat in the way he was tied to the city. Makes me wonder if the Mordeth part actually needs it to survive now, since he obviously became something very much other than human, given that he somehow lived the death of Aridhol and became seemingly immortal in the process. Here's the relevant line in tFoH (bolding mine):

He was whole again, one with what had bound him so long ago, one with what had in a very real way given him life.

 

Still, there's another consequence to the idea of the dagger not being special in and of itself: it makes an outstanding question even more difficult to answer than it already was. That question being: why did Mordeth cease his attack on the Ta'veren Trio? He was doing his whole weird routine where he swelled and filled the room and he had them dead to rights, but immediately after Mat grabbed the dagger from the treasure pile, he shrieks and they see him cowering in the corner. Then he makes some threats, yowls some more and bails. Why? Nothing indicates that Rand channeled there, and it certainly wasn't Perrin so...what? RJ makes a point of letting us know Mat grabbed the dagger there, so clearly something was going on with it and Mordeth (this is what made me believe the dagger really was special in the first place), but that doesn't make sense if it was just a dagger. If Mat had snagged a corrupted toilet plunger instead, would Mordeth have still fled? How does that even work?

 

On a very slightly different subject, I always wondered how Moiraine knew Mordeth was capable of escaping if he possessed someone. I can only guess that Aes Sedai had pieced together enough from the stories of those who encountered him to notice that he often tried talking people into leaving with him, but that still seems like a bit of leap from that to "He'll swallow your soul!" I have trouble imagining he'd escaped before, mostly because I can't see how you'd ever manage to find and then put him back if he did.

Edited October 25, 2010 by didymos

[Durinax]

...Personally though, I think I would've sent one of my Dark Friend flunkies into the city rather than infiltrate the White Tower.

fain doesnt do that because he doesnt trust that the DF's would be able to control their greed if they did get to the treasure and I dont think he would want to allow others access to the same kind of thing he was exposed too

[dovien]

I can assure you that I think him being better than Lan is kind of silly, but there is nothing to say that he isn't as good as or better than Lan at this point. He beat a guy that beat Lan one-on-one a few times, and Sleete had the help of another warder when Gawyn beat him. This means nothing concrete except that we know for sure that he's better than Sleete is now, but it leaves the door open for the possibility.

 

A more than warm breeze stirred, ruffling the dead leaves that carpeted the ground, and with shocking suddenness, Lan was moving, shifting from stance to stance, blade a whirling blur in his hands. Faster and faster, till he seemed to sprint from one to the next, yet all as precise as the movements of a clock. She waited for him to stop, or at least slow, but he did not.

 

I think this scene is a good example of how far Lan has developed since leaving the White Tower. I don't think Sleete would have a chance of defeating him now. I always remember the scene in New Spring where he defeats six men single-handedly. Maybe Gawyn is comparable to Lan as a young man but Lan has a vast experience to draw on now as well as being in the best shape of his life.

I think Lan is the best alive, currently, and that he could give Jearom a run for his money.

Edited October 25, 2010 by DovienGleeman

[Sharaman]

On the other hand, I've never quite understood why Mordeth so desparately craved that dagger. Supposedly, anything from SL would be tainted and corrupting, so how could the dagger be necessary? But then again we have RJ saying Mat wasn't contagious...so who the hell knows?

 

The dagger in of itself is nothing special other than the fact it's from Shadar Logath and it has already been carried out of the city. What stops him, or did stop him should I say considering the city is one big pit now, from returning and replacing his Precious with a rock on the ground is that the Mordeth part of Fain fears becoming trapped in the city again. If, say, Perrin took one of those jeweled axes from all the way back in TEotW with him, Fain would be just as content with that as he would the dagger.

 

I had wondered this myself until I accidentally stumbled upon the answer myself while going back through some of the earlier books. Unfortunately I don't have a book and chapter number on hand so you'll have to take my word for it until I find the quote.

 

Right, OK. I know what you're talking about. Still, it was kinda strange that he just had to have any object. It made him feel "whole", but why should it be able to do that? The suggestion in tFoH is that he really does need some physical object with the corruption in it, but it's not at all clear why he needs one. I don't know: maybe it's some sort of "anchor" for the Mordeth part of him, somewhat in the way he was tied to the city. Makes me wonder if the Mordeth part actually needs it to survive now, since he obviously became something very much other than human, given that he somehow lived the death of Aridhol and became seemingly immortal in the process. Here's the relevant line in tFoH (bolding mine):

He was whole again, one with what had bound him so long ago, one with what had in a very real way given him life.

 

Still, there's another consequence to the idea of the dagger not being special in and of itself: it makes an outstanding question even more difficult to answer than it already was. That question being: why did Mordeth cease his attack on the Ta'veren Trio? He was doing his whole weird routine where he swelled and filled the room and he had them dead to rights, but immediately after Mat grabbed the dagger from the treasure pile, he shrieks and they see him cowering in the corner. Then he makes some threats, yowls some more and bails. Why? Nothing indicates that Rand channeled there, and it certainly wasn't Perrin so...what? RJ makes a point of letting us know Mat grabbed the dagger there, so clearly something was going on with it and Mordeth (this is what made me believe the dagger really was special in the first place), but that doesn't make sense if it was just a dagger. If Mat had snagged a corrupted toilet plunger instead, would Mordeth have still fled? How does that even work?

 

On a very slightly different subject, I always wondered how Moiraine knew Mordeth was capable of escaping if he possessed someone. I can only guess that Aes Sedai had pieced together enough from the stories of those who encountered him to notice that he often tried talking people into leaving with him, but that still seems like a bit of leap from that to "He'll swallow your soul!" I have trouble imagining he'd escaped before, mostly because I can't see how you'd ever manage to find and then put him back if he did.

 

Most everyone seems to know about Shadar Logoth. The Ogier, the Dark, the AS. Moiraine herself ,and the circle of AS who healed Mat also knew in theory, how to deal with it, and I'm betting those are not the same weaves that heal a broken arm. So there must be previous experiences or Brown Ajah lore written up in Tar Valon. My guess would be treasure-hunters who landed up infected.

[didymos]

Most everyone seems to know about Shadar Logoth. The Ogier, the Dark, the AS. Moiraine herself ,and the circle of AS who healed Mat also knew in theory, how to deal with it, and I'm betting those are not the same weaves that heal a broken arm. So there must be previous experiences or Brown Ajah lore written up in Tar Valon. My guess would be treasure-hunters who landed up infected.

 

Yeah, but knowing how to contain the corruption or heal the damage it does aren't what I'm curious about. There are tons of ways that information could have been gained, including just going there during the day and checking the place out (which I'm sure at least some AS did). Same goes for the existence of Mordeth: plenty of potential channels for that info. My point is how do you learn about this guy being capable of devouring souls and taking over human bodies unless he's either done it, dropped a ton of hints to that effect over the years, or just outright told someone? It's not like possession is a common phenomenon in WOTLand. Mordeth is basically unique. Yeah, the DO can relocate souls and Machin Shin can eat them, but Mordeth does both and could apparently have done so to anybody at pretty much anytime. I don't see how studying infected treasure hunters would allow one to deduce the existence of this more or less unheard of ability.

Edited October 25, 2010 by didymos

[Sharaman]

Most everyone seems to know about Shadar Logoth. The Ogier, the Dark, the AS. Moiraine herself ,and the circle of AS who healed Mat also knew in theory, how to deal with it, and I'm betting those are not the same weaves that heal a broken arm. So there must be previous experiences or Brown Ajah lore written up in Tar Valon. My guess would be treasure-hunters who landed up infected.

 

Yeah, but knowing how to contain the corruption or heal the damage it does aren't what I'm curious about. There are tons of ways that information could have been gained, including just going there during the day and checking the place out (which I'm sure at least some AS did). Same goes for the existence of Mordeth: plenty of potential channels for that info. My point is how do you learn about this guy being capable of devouring souls and taking over human bodies unless he's either done it, dropped a ton of hints to that effect over the years, or just outright told someone? It's not like possession is a common phenomenon in WOTLand. Mordeth is basically unique. Yeah, the DO can relocate souls and Machin Shin can eat them, but Mordeth does both and could apparently have done so to anybody at pretty much anytime. I don't see how studying infected treasure hunters would allow one to deduce the existence of this more or less unheard of ability.

 

Well, this is all outside the thread scope since it's speculative.

 

Apparently sensing changes in the soul, or lack of soul, etc., can be done even without OP (Verin in the stedding, Perrin's smell thing with Slayer). May be the Mordeth manifestation leaves signs that show up, on delving or otherwise, - Fain was delved by Moiraine in EotW and TGH. It's possible other earlier infected persons were also delved. The other thing is the switches in PoV - Fain claims to be Ordeith, etc., and in a sense, his earlier brainwashing (soul washing) gives him some protection. Maybe earlier infected persons directly claimed to be Mordeth and displayed knowledge they couldn't have otherwise had - so yes, almost directly telling people.

 

Also if the dagger shows up as infected (as it does) to practically any AS and FS, probably other artefacts from SL also feel evil to every channeler/ sensitive. Bit like the Nynaeve reaction to the Seals and Domination Band.

[rambling]

I've only just finished reading the series for the first time so I'm probably missing the obvious, but, why did Rand destroy the Choedan Kal?

I mean, is he not being a little rash?

Is it just a temper tantrum? Or has he worked out the entire game plan?

Is he now going to go everywhere accompanied by two others just so he can use Callandor?

Or is he going to hug the baddies to death?

 

Ok, I'm being flippant, but what have I missed?

 

Partly I think he destroyed it because it was too tempting to use it to solve problems.

Partly I think he destroyed it for fear that some other saidin channeler, possibly one that owed allegiance to the GLoD, would get hold of it. That could have happened if Semirhage, Shaidar and co. had bothered.

 

Thanks for the reply

What you say makes perfect sense, but I still find it all less than satisfying somehow. I'm not convinced by the scene, to the point where I had to post the question. It just seems out of character, unless he's had some revelation we don't yet know about.

Oh well...guess I'll have to wait for TOM to see if it clears the issue.

[Dream]

Thanks for the reply

What you say makes perfect sense, but I still find it all less than satisfying somehow. I'm not convinced by the scene, to the point where I had to post the question. It just seems out of character, unless he's had some revelation we don't yet know about.

Oh well...guess I'll have to wait for TOM to see if it clears the issue.

In The Strike at Shayol Ghul we learn that there were two opposing factions on how to fight the Dark One. One wanted to use seven focal points (the Seals) to reseal the Dark One. The other wanted to use the Choeden Kals to create a barrier strong enough to keep him out. Lews Therin was leading the side to use the Seals.

 

In Veins of Gold, Rand thinks

The ter'angreal was connected to a much greater force, a massive sa'angreal to the south, built to stop the Dark One. Too powerful, some had said. Too powerful ever to use. Too frightening.

 

It's probable that those were Lews Therin's thoughts, which might explain why Rand was so eager to destroy it. So it wasn't really a rash decision. Lews Therin may have always been against them.

[NetSlider]

Thanks for the reply

What you say makes perfect sense, but I still find it all less than satisfying somehow. I'm not convinced by the scene, to the point where I had to post the question. It just seems out of character, unless he's had some revelation we don't yet know about.

Oh well...guess I'll have to wait for TOM to see if it clears the issue.

In The Strike at Shayol Ghul we learn that there were two opposing factions on how to fight the Dark One. One wanted to use seven focal points (the Seals) to reseal the Dark One. The other wanted to use the Choeden Kals to create a barrier strong enough to keep him out. Lews Therin was leading the side to use the Seals.

 

In Veins of Gold, Rand thinks

The ter'angreal was connected to a much greater force, a massive sa'angreal to the south, built to stop the Dark One. Too powerful, some had said. Too powerful ever to use. Too frightening.

 

It's probable that those were Lews Therin's thoughts, which might explain why Rand was so eager to destroy it. So it wasn't really a rash decision. Lews Therin may have always been against them.

 

 

LTT was not "maybe" against them, but we know for a fact he was against them. That was the reason why the strike at SG happened, he was pretty much forced into it. Women didn't follow him because the divide was along the gender line. Now, I've always was curious if the fact that the keys were 'lost" (for real or not) forced his hand.