Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Finnssss22]

finished book 5.

 

Did the attempted team up between Rahvin, Graendal, Lanfear and Sammael serve any real purpose in the end?

 

It served Lanfear's purpose. She manipulated the other three to help her snare LTT and push him towards her. But that plot fell apart in the battle of the docks in Cairhien. And Cyndane is paying the price for that piece of ambition.

 

More importantly, the plot restrained the two male Foresaken posing the greatest danger to Rand: Rahvin and Sammael. If both, with Graendal, moved against Rand in force, he would have been in real danger. The plot gave Rand enough time to secure Cairhien and then move against Rahvin (in rage and for vengeance) and Sammael (in a well-organized plan).

 

Actually, the main part of the plan was to serve someone up for Rand to focus on so he wasn't focusing on them. That person was of course Sammael, who they didn't need to push very hard, despite his objections at being the bait. He was to be at the forefront but Sammy was also not keen on having to trust them or that he even needed them to defeat Rand..

The plan was for Sammy to be the bait while Lanfear, Graendal and Rahvin waited linked to ambush Rand when he went after Sammy.

 

This was all revealed in Nynaeve's PoV in tFoH-34 when Brigitte takes her to spy on Moghedien, who in turn, is spying on Lanfear, Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Finnssss

[Maleshub]

finished book 5.

 

Did the attempted team up between Rahvin, Graendal, Lanfear and Sammael serve any real purpose in the end?

 

It served Lanfear's purpose. She manipulated the other three to help her snare LTT and push him towards her. But that plot fell apart in the battle of the docks in Cairhien. And Cyndane is paying the price for that piece of ambition.

 

More importantly, the plot restrained the two male Foresaken posing the greatest danger to Rand: Rahvin and Sammael. If both, with Graendal, moved against Rand in force, he would have been in real danger. The plot gave Rand enough time to secure Cairhien and then move against Rahvin (in rage and for vengeance) and Sammael (in a well-organized plan).

 

Actually, the main part of the plan was to serve someone up for Rand to focus on so he wasn't focusing on them. That person was of course Sammael, who they didn't need to push very hard, despite his objections at being the bait. He was to be at the forefront but Sammy was also not keen on having to trust them or that he even needed them to defeat Rand..

The plan was for Sammy to be the bait while Lanfear, Graendal and Rahvin waited linked to ambush Rand when he went after Sammy.

 

This was all revealed in Nynaeve's PoV in tFoH-34 when Brigitte takes her to spy on Moghedien, who in turn, is spying on Lanfear, Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael.

 

That's the first layer of Lanfear's plot. But her real aim was to rule the world with LTT, which Moiraine's Rhuidean visions showed. Lanfear had her eyes and hopes on the Choedan Kal; and she knew Rand had them. So, the road to power lay with Rand, not the other Foresaken, who had to be removed or manipulated to achieve the main goal.

[yoniy0]

People, please try to refrain from spoiling someone who's not yet read through the entire series. This thread is labeled for spoilers up to ToM, but we can also be courteous.

[Finnssss22]

Tried to keep anything I said with what was available as of the end of tFoH(where the poster was at).

To be fair though Yoniy0, he was asking to be "spoiled"

Edited November 7, 2012 by Finnssss

[EmperorAllspice]

Stupid Lanfear. Why can't any of the other Forsaken be competent?

 

And I was liking Rahvin at the end of TFOH too :(

[EmperorAllspice]

Wait a minute. If the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and Ishamael is ok with this, and Ishy is in charge... then why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels? I'm pretty sure doing that would destroy the seals on your prison, unless they can withstand reality unraveling.

[Whizbang]

I don't fully understand this point either. Perhaps unraveling the pattern is not the ultimate goal. Or perhaps, the DO canno break completely free of his prison if the Pattern is destroyed (remember, the Bore only allows his "hand" through). There is a quote somewhere (I think it is of Brandon Sanderson) explaining how only the True Power (which you may not even know about if you're on your first read and just finished The Fires of Heaven) and the unraveling of the Pattern can destroy Heartstone. So, yes, the seals would break if the Pattern were unraveled by Balefire. So, since the DO's minions fear to use it too much,they don't want the Pattern unraveling too early.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Whizbang

[EmperorAllspice]

I get why most of the minions fear to destroy the pattern, they're confident that the DO wants to rule, not just destroy. Ishy though, iirc knows that the DO will destroy everything, and is ok with that. So if Balefiring everything was a way for his plan to succeed, then the DO could've just asked him to do it

[Whizbang]

Maybe Ishy is too cowardly to commit suicide in this way. He's all for working with the DO, but ultimately it will be the actions (or inactions) of others that result in his death and the destruction of the Pattern. If he actively goes around using Balefire, he'll just chicken out when things start to unravel. He won't be able to continue, knowing that at any point, his next weaving might start the ball rolling down the hill too fast to stop.

 

Just a thought. Probably not correct, but at least it partially explains the situation.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Whizbang

[TNine]

Wait a minute. If the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and Ishamael is ok with this, and Ishy is in charge... then why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels? I'm pretty sure doing that would destroy the seals on your prison, unless they can withstand reality unraveling.

He doesn't want the Pattern destroyed until he breaks free of it. It's like destroying a house when you are still in it.

 

That's my interpretation, at least.

[morkhon]

Does Balefire created by the True Power act any different from Balefire created by the One Power?

[yoniy0]

To be fair though Yoniy0, he was asking to be "spoiled"

Not really. I don't object to anything you said, though.

 

why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels?

Hmm, because Demandred is already doing that? No good reason I can come up with.

 

Does Balefire created by the True Power act any different from Balefire created by the One Power?

No, they function the same way.

[Veracohr]

Wait a minute. If the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and Ishamael is ok with this, and Ishy is in charge... then why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels? I'm pretty sure doing that would destroy the seals on your prison, unless they can withstand reality unraveling.

 

Easy - that wouldn't provide for very entertaining reading.

[Hagazussa]

I do not think it is enough for the Dark One to simply destroy the world, he do not just want existence, he want it destroyed the right way, that is one explanation, another explanation is that just balefirring the hell out of everything might not completely destroy the pattern, it might leave it just in enough ruins that the Dark One can not complete his plans, I mean for an evil God there must be enough that screams sloppy more than pieces of world left where and there, if you are going to destroy the world, do it right. There is a theory of how our universe is going to end that is named a vacuum metastability event where everything in the universe, in all time just stop existing completely, that might be what the Dark One wants and I am not sure that would be achieved by Ishy just running around like a manic tossing balefire left and right.

 

Maybe Ishy is too cowardly to commit suicide in this way. He's all for working with the DO, but ultimately it will be the actions (or inactions) of others that result in his death and the destruction of the Pattern. If he actively goes around using Balefire, he'll just chicken out when things start to unravel. He won't be able to continue, knowing that at any point, his next weaving might start the ball rolling down the hill too fast to stop.

 

I do not think Ishy is cowardly in that way, basically he is just tired of it all, tired of a universe where nothing in the end mean anything, that whatever you do, whatever you achieve is already decided and if you manage to do something good then the problem you solved will just be back on the next time the same age come again, and you or your future incarnation have to solve it again as that is the role of your soul. Most other characters in WoT, including the other Forsaken do not think that far, they want power, and fame or things like immortality and glory, they are wrapped up in their own lives, but Ishy see the while circular nature of the Wheel all to well and he just want a stop to it, he might fear to die, but he fears just living or having his soul live for an eternity just playing out the same age, the same drama again and again and again more. I think that if Ishy had the chance he would destroy the pattern in a heartbeat, but I do not think balefire can destroy it completely, just cripple it so to speak.

[Whizbang]

One thing that just occurred to me:

 

The Earth in WoT is still just a tiny spec of cosmic dust in a vast sea of nothing, with maybe a few other bits of cosmic dust here and there. Balefire may unravel the pattern on/around the world, but it wouldn't unravel the entire universe. Maybe a black hole would form, or some other strange phenomenon that would essentially be a gaping wound in the pattern, but it would take balefire strong enough to take out galaxies to truly unravel the pattern.

[Mr Ares]

Wait a minute. If the Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, and Ishamael is ok with this, and Ishy is in charge... then why doesn't Shai'Tan ask Ishy to go around Balefiring everything until the pattern unravels? I'm pretty sure doing that would destroy the seals on your prison, unless they can withstand reality unraveling.

Shai'tan and Ishamael want the Pattern destroyed, but the other Chosen don't. To act too overtly towards the goal of complete destruction rune the risk of the other Chosen finding out, and acting against Ishamael - you lose a powerful tool, and potentially the use of the others as well (especially if they think that the promised immortality isn't coming, or they die trying to stop Ishy). There's also no guarantee of success - it took vast quantities of it being used in the AoL to drive the Pattern to the brink. Ishy could probably be used better elsewhere. So, it's a high risk strategy, but the gains are no greater than other, surer methods of getting what you want.

[EmperorAllspice]

The Chosen hate each other. Does Ishamael hate his peers too? I'm not sure how he feels since he's meant to be in charge of them.

[Finnssss22]

The Chosen hate each other. Does Ishamael hate his peers too? I'm not sure how he feels since he's meant to be in charge of them.

 

I think you need to keep reading

[mb]

He doesn't want the Pattern destroyed until he breaks free of it. It's like destroying a house when you are still in it.

 

That's my interpretation, at least.

I have doubts about the Pattern being the Dark One's prison.

During the War of Power, there was a lot of balefire from both sides. If the Pattern was the Dark One's prison, that much balefire would probably have removed enough (or possibly more than enough) threads for him to become free.

[TNine]

He doesn't want the Pattern destroyed until he breaks free of it. It's like destroying a house when you are still in it.

 

That's my interpretation, at least.

I have doubts about the Pattern being the Dark One's prison.

During the War of Power, there was a lot of balefire from both sides. If the Pattern was the Dark One's prison, that much balefire would probably have removed enough (or possibly more than enough) threads for him to become free.

The Pattern is not his prison, but the Pattern does hold his prison. To use the house analogy--the Dark One is locked in the basement, and every is knocking down supports on the first floor. Unplanned destruction of the Pattern will cause it to collapse without giving the Dark One the opportunity to free himself first.

Edited November 9, 2012 by TNine

[morkhon]

Does Balefire created by the True Power act any different from Balefire created by the One Power?

No, they function the same way.

You sure about that? In the ToM prologue we get..

 

'Working with the True Power was similar, yet not identical, to working with the One Power. A weave of the True Power would often function in a slightly different way, or have an unanticipated side effect.'

 

Better simple question: have we seen any examples of TP-generated balefire?

[Amandera]

Just the one that created the link between Moridin and Rand in ACoS as far as I can remember. The best insight we have into TP is gateways IMO. With saidar a channeler creates a similarity of two points in the Pattern, with saidin he folds the Pattern and drills a bore through it. But with TP, Moridin rips apart the Pattern to create a hole. The end result is the same: a gateway, but the method and consequences of it are different. So by all evidence yoniy0 is right, a balefire is a balefire and should do the same job no matter how it's created. But we don't know what side-effects, if there is any, it can cause.

[EmperorAllspice]

What colour is Egwene's hair? I hope to Light it isn't black. For 5 books I've been imagining her with brown, slightly curly hair.

[David Selig]

What colour is Egwene's hair? I hope to Light it isn't black. For 5 books I've been imagining her with brown, slightly curly hair.

IIRC her hair is always described as "dark".

[Whizbang]

I always imagined it as a chocolate brown. Shiny and silky and with a little bit of wave in it.