Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[TristanWebb]

Does anyone else have a real hard time reading some of the threads here that are essentially solved in the spoilers but people are still arguing about?

[Knivy]

I havent read the aMoL stuff, so nope :D

[yoniy0]

Also what would be a Tower's reaction if this where to happen? I realize that it is just speculation since as far as I know the situation have never come up in the books, but if it did, would they just arrest the man and gentle him as usual or would the fact that he was a bonded Warder change things in any way, and also would there been any legal problems for the Aes Sedai who got a Warder with a little something extra in him? And when we are on that topic, what would be the effect for someone holding a bond on another channeler who get severed?

Actually, Elyas is sufficient as an example, since the Reds did try to gentle him. So, the rules are the same, they will gentle even a Warder. And I think we can deduce from Cadsuane's work with Emarin's brother that if they caught it soon enough, there'd be no reason to release him, and every reason not to -- a job to do is the best cure for the typical despair.

 

Cuendillar is said to become stronger when force is applied to it (except the True Power/Dark One). So... Why aren't those who have a Seal (Rand, Nyn for a while) channeling for all they are worth at the Seals?

If you ask me, because it's just a saying. You can't make an indestructible object stronger; it's just a way of saying that cuendillar is just that strong.

More concretely, the Seals are in no position to suffer abuse right now, not from falling off the table, and not from any type of channeling. They're not really made of cuendillar anymore, or at least they've lost the property of that material.

 

Does anyone else have a real hard time reading some of the threads here that are essentially solved in the spoilers but people are still arguing about?

Yes. Although, if the spoiler board is any indication, people will continue to argue no matter what.

[Seldkam]

Who is the Lord of Chaos?

[Hagazussa]

Actually, Elyas is sufficient as an example, since the Reds did try to gentle him. So, the rules are the same, they will gentle even a Warder. And I think we can deduce from Cadsuane's work with Emarin's brother that if they caught it soon enough, there'd be no reason to release him, and every reason not to -- a job to do is the best cure for the typical despair.

 

I agree that keeping a former channeler Warder bonded might just get him to survive, at least for a while, but what I was wondering about is if being bonded to someone who is being severed will negatively affect the holder of the bond since the one they are bonded to will be going through something rather damned painful according to the Forsaken and to those we have seen it happen to in the books.

 

One thing I am also wondering about is why did Elyas actually attack some warders and fight his way out the way I have understood it when the Reds tried to gentle him? That weave would not affect him one little bit, all he would see would be some Aes Sedai looking at him and looking more and more frustrated. Would it not be more practical to just stand there and plan tomorrow's dinner, count clouds, take a nap or in other way entertain oneself until the Reds finally give up and figure out that whatever he got is probably not channeling related. I mean how long can one attempt take? And if they just give it a few more attempts after that just in case their mojo literary did not work the first time, should they not then be rather satisfied that they do not have a channeler on their hands and Mr Dances with Wolves can go back to whatever he was doing before the Reds started to be annoying? Would not that be more practical than to go on a killing spree and fleeing?

[phoenixtrinity]

I have the BWB, but it's not with me right now and for some reason I can't think of the answer to this question:

 

How did AS originally learn or know weaves back when people first channeled? Also, I forget if there are consequences to making a completely random weave you don't know, or does the weave just collapse as if you did nothing? Say for example if an AS just randomly tried weaving fire into a knot or some such; would that be completely harmless or would that potentially result in something terrible? I remember it being stated that messing with Ter'angreal could have bad consequences if you didn't know what you were doing, but nothing about channeling specifically.

 

Furthermore, do we know how people first discovered channeling? Everyone would have started out as Wilders, essentially, right? Doesn't this mean they would never really know they were touching the Source to begin with?

[yoniy0]

Who is the Lord of Chaos?

It's not straightforward. On one level, it's simply an order to saw chaos whenever possible. On the other, it's Rand, because he was well on his way to working for the wrong team by then. That also ties in with a Randland holiday where each town would have its roles turned upside down for a day (like, the town fool becomes mayor; if I'm not mistaken, the LoC is what they'd call that fool). In any event, Brandon once said that "this is a good theory for people to be reading", whatever that means.

 

what I was wondering about is if being bonded to someone who is being severed will negatively affect the holder of the bond since the one they are bonded to will be going through something rather damned painful according to the Forsaken and to those we have seen it happen to in the books.

My answer is twofold. First, I don't agree that the actual weave is painful, for all that it's described as Shielding with a razor-sharp edge. I think it's the separation from the Source that's the torment.

 

One thing I am also wondering about is why did Elyas actually attack some warders and fight his way out the way I have understood it when the Reds tried to gentle him?

He didn't feel like letting them do it, I think. Yes, it's a little silly.

 

Also, I forget if there are consequences to making a completely random weave you don't know, or does the weave just collapse as if you did nothing?

There can be, yes. For example, Egwene thought if she tried to Travel the way men do, then she'd might rip the Pattern open or something. Less awful is the possibility of hurting oneself, like Moiraine does when she blunders one of the Hundred Weaves.

However, there's quite a bit of difference between making a completely random weave and using your intuition, such as we've seen Egwene do with Traveling. Working with the Source appears to teach you about how it might be used.

 

Furthermore, do we know how people first discovered channeling? Everyone would have started out as Wilders, essentially, right? Doesn't this mean they would never really know they were touching the Source to begin with?

Trial and error. They were wilders, but that doesn't mean they didn't realize what they were doing, Rand did, for example, before Moiraine confirmed his fears. And yes, they were probably not as sophisticated, but ingenuity has its own merits.

Edited October 3, 2012 by yoniy0

[Hagazussa]

I have the BWB, but it's not with me right now and for some reason I can't think of the answer to this question:

 

How did AS originally learn or know weaves back when people first channeled? Also, I forget if there are consequences to making a completely random weave you don't know, or does the weave just collapse as if you did nothing? Say for example if an AS just randomly tried weaving fire into a knot or some such; would that be completely harmless or would that potentially result in something terrible? I remember it being stated that messing with Ter'angreal could have bad consequences if you didn't know what you were doing, but nothing about channeling specifically.

 

Furthermore, do we know how people first discovered channeling? Everyone would have started out as Wilders, essentially, right? Doesn't this mean they would never really know they were touching the Source to begin with?

 

It is not written when people discovered the One Power, I assume it was sometime late in the first age, it might even be the thing that set of the nuclear holocaust which is indicated to be the end of it. Imagine if suddenly boom there where magick in our world that none could deny the existence of for it was there and in your face and repeatable in clinical tests, it would bring the world out into complete chaos. But off course what I am saying now is just guessing and speculation. There might have been one event that suddenly opened up the One Power to the world, much like in the roleplaying game Shadowrun where suddenly there is magick, however my personal theory, and again this is only guesswork based on my own world view., I think that if "our world" is the first age which very much indicates, then I think the One Power have always been used but just not effectively. All through history, in every society there have been a belief in magick, even in this our so modern age with our mobile phones, computers and science there are millions who believe in magick, and some of the systems, especially some of the Asian ones are very similar in theory but not in scope off course to what WoT uses, especially Hindu mysticism and a Japanese system called Reiki, I think some modern practitioner just figured out one day that there where more and how to use it and that then created more than a little unrest in the world when discovered. Off course like I said this is just speculation based on my own world view in actuality it is not mentioned yet how the One Power and channeling was discovered and when. One popular theory is that at the end of the books the Power will be sealed away, used up or in other way gone from play for a while until it get back late in the first age, this is a fair theory as it would explain the lack of magick in the fictional our world which supposedly is the first age, however me personally I do not think there is a lack of magick in the world, it is just limited and my theory is then that what is lost in some age or another is the knowledge of how to use it effectively.

 

By the time there was Aes Sedai they probably knew how to weave but the first channelers probably just did it by instinct. Look at how Rand takes away Bela's fatigue during the escape from his home village, he did not in a meticulousness way lay down threads, he just did it by pure instinct. We know the WoT channelers use foci at times, items or actions that help them mage channeling easier, life for example Moiraine's staff. My guess would be that in the beginning such tools where used and no one knew how to weave properly they just did some ritual or waves a stick around and wished, and then someone eventually noticed threads forming and decided to try if it was not more effective to just make those and not have a dance or a hour long chanting session first. Also should by guess work above be right then the idea of weaving magick is not new, it have been part of allot of different cultures idea of how magick is used, that the actions of the practitioner weave the spell together, it would not not be to much to a stretch to just start using strands of energy themselves to weave effects than to do it with whatever means or just plain wishing that had been done before. Now in either case I do not think channelers just boom knew how to weave, for whatever reason I think it stared allot less effective and more instinctual and that when weaves where eventually discovered they where just found more effective.

 

Yes just messing around with weaves can be dangerous and rather explosive, sometime it will just fall apart if it do not work by it could have very nasty effects that is made pretty clear though the series, but then it do happen that the characters discover on their own how to do new weaves, for example Nyn learning how to heal severing so someone can find something new with playing around but is it safe, I would say it depend on what they already know. Weaving is described, though perhaps a bad analogy, to be similar to weaving cloth, now for anything you do with yearn, if you know how to for example do crochet and know all the basics then you can figure out new stitches and patters for you know how things have to be to turn out nice, if you just sit down with a crochet needle and some yarn without knowing the basics then you will end up with tangled yarn and nothing else. I suspect it is the same with channeling in WoT, if the channeler know how a basic fire weave works then yes they can try to change it around to make a new fire weave in relative safety since they know what not to do among other things, but if someone just start weaving randomly to see if they get something fun out of it, then that can result in anything from a weave falling apart harmlessly, to the channeler killing themselves, to them discovering a new weave or them getting burned out so then it is not that safe.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Hagazussa

[Hagazussa]

My answer is twofold. First, I don't agree that the actual weave is painful, for all that it's described as Shielding with a razor-sharp edge. I think it's the separation from the Source that's the torment.

 

I agree that it is the separation from the Source which would be the greatest torment for a severed channeler, but in every instant it have happened in the books the victim have reaction with screaming their lungs out and show definite sign of complete and utter agony. Also in one of the books one of the Forsaken wakes up, find herself unable to channel, panics as she is clearly not shielded normally and then comes to the conclusion that it is ok she could not have been severed for that separation is the deepest pain anyone could know. Now yes I agree she could have meant that she would have felt complete despair mentally, but to me that sounds more like no it is not possible for I would have definitely felt that. Those Aes Sedai that Rand stills when he escapes from the sticky situation of mage in a box do not react with despair right away, they react with shock an extreme agony.

 

He didn't feel like letting them do it, I think. Yes, it's a little silly.

 

But did they not try, if I do not remember it wrong he said they tried but they found nothing to cut which makes his decision to fight his way out even more silly, off course if there is not more to the story here which can explain it, the man just decided at some point alright end of this at fought his way out. The only good reason for acting that way that I can think of is if the Reds did not want to let him go but wanted to study him or in other way be a nuisance instead of saying sorry, our mistake and let him go.

 

Edit: I checked the exact quote Moghedien comes with, or rather what she thinks, and she use the word tearing not separation indicating that she is indeed talking about the severing itself here and not the after effect of the despair. I can be wrong but to me this definitely sounds like she is saying that it do not matter if she can not feel the Power, she could not have been severer for that would have been so painful she would have known, especially with the last bit about it being beyond any power to deaden, as in there is no way it could be done painless enough that she would not have noticed.

 

No.She knew she was going to die, but this Myrddraal would not eat one shred of her! She reached to embrace saidar, and her eyes bulged.There was nothing there. Nothing! It was as if she had been severed! She knew she had not it was said that tearing was the deepest pain anyone could know, beyond any power to deaden

Edited October 3, 2012 by Hagazussa

[aranyaka]

Have there been any significant threads on Narishma? He seems like a wild card to me, I'm wondering if there has been extensive discussion regarding him.

I seem to recall a thread speculating about his role; some time back. Do not remember when nor the thread title nor the member that started the thread.

 

Why Elaida planed to kill Gawyn?

If you are referring to in Lord of Chaos, it was actually Galina; not Elaida. Galina's reason, I am not entirely sure; possibly Black Ajah orders.

 

I'm rereading aCoS. In Chapter 32 Sealed to the Flame, when Covarla told her something about Gawyn, Elaida's response was:

“Forget Gawyn Trakand,” Elaida ordered sourly. That young man remained alive to trouble her plans, it seemed. If Galina did turn out to be alive still, she would pay for failing in that, on top of letting al’Thor escape.

It seems that killing Gawyn was Elaida's plan. That's why I ask.

[Crisapx]

One question, if an Aes Sedai's Warder started channeling, would she know? I mean the age a man can spontaneously start channeling if he have the spark stretch to his beginning 30's meaning that a man can be trained as a Warder, bonded and happily living as a bodyguard slash human familiar long before that deadline runs out. What happens if a bonded Warder where to suddenly develop channeling abilities? Would his Aes Sedai feel it? Obviously it would change the rules of the bond to that of a bond on another channeler, but let us say this happens a good while before the start of the books when no one know that the rules are different for bonded channelers, would the one holding the bond notice anything? Or could a Warder who got a gift he could not return to say it like that hide it and channel undetected in the bushes when no one was looking.

 

Also what would be a Tower's reaction if this where to happen? I realize that it is just speculation since as far as I know the situation have never come up in the books, but if it did, would they just arrest the man and gentle him as usual or would the fact that he was a bonded Warder change things in any way, and also would there been any legal problems for the Aes Sedai who got a Warder with a little something extra in him? And when we are on that topic, what would be the effect for someone holding a bond on another channeler who get severed?

 

They would just sever the warder and it wouldn't be a problem, unless the warder has been chaneling for a long time without the AS knowing.

People when severed from the source usually die because they have been channeling for some time now, and as you probably know, when your channeling your pretty much on top of the world, it's like your living for the first time.

So after they are severed from the source, they just loose their will to keep on living, since they see no point in it because they can't touch the OP.

 

I guess they are OP junkies, and when the stuff runs out, they die because of the lack of it, and since the warder would have only hit it 2 or 3 times, it would cause no withdrawal

[Hagazussa]

They would just sever the warder and it wouldn't be a problem, unless the warder has been chaneling for a long time without the AS knowing.

People when severed from the source usually die because they have been channeling for some time now, and as you probably know, when your channeling your pretty much on top of the world, it's like your living for the first time.

So after they are severed from the source, they just loose their will to keep on living, since they see no point in it because they can't touch the OP.

 

I guess they are OP junkies, and when the stuff runs out, they die because of the lack of it, and since the warder would have only hit it 2 or 3 times, it would cause no withdrawal

 

I am not sure I agree, I am not saying you are wrong, and the withdrawal is definitely a big part of it however I do not think it is as easy as just them being magickal junkies. I do not think we have seen a channeler who is completely fresh at it actually get severed and I do think that if they have not had time to work much with the Power it would be allot easier to survive after being severed but I do not think it would be as you say no problem, they do loose a vital part of who they are which is more than just a junkie loosing access to their drugs.

 

Now if one keep a channeler shielded for a long period of time they will not get the depression that comes with severing, will they be frustrated, oh hell yes, would it be uncomfortable, definitely, but they do not get suicidal and just plain lethargic in the same way, would they possibly risk their lives to get out of the shield eventually yes, would they agree to do things they normally would not to get out of the shield yes, but if it was just withdrawal they should get the same depression a severed channeler get after a while, and they do not.

 

I also thing it would be a to easy solution to the problem if it was as easy as if someone have not channeled allot they can just get themselves severed and then go on their marry way. I mean if a random Joe farmer discovered he could channel he would go straight to the Aes Sedai and have the problem taken care of and then go back to his life if there was no consequences for it, everyone know a male channeler do not live long they either go insane or die in a few years, if it was as easy as having it taken care of as long as you have not been channeling enough to become addicted would not about everyone take that option? Even if the severing itself is painful as I believe it is though some disagree with me on that, would not a few moments of pain be better than going insane and being a danger to everyone around them and them and then dying?

 

Now granted allot of people in the WoT world do not know the details, they know the Aes Sedai take male channelers away, that they take away their abilities and that it kills them but that is about it, but in larger cities and among the more educated the facts are known and yet it never happens that someone actually show up at the Tower and say "Well ehm...I think I can channel can you do something about it." I think it is more to it than just the addiction, off course that is just my personal opinion though, among other things because the idea that these people where born like channelers and there is something seriously wrong with destroying that aspect of them to me makes more sense and feels more tragic than they are junkies who can not handle withdrawal. I think that even a completely fresh, or extremely weak channeler would get a bad reaction to being severed, even if that reaction might be milder than for a more experienced one.

[Crisapx]

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible, but yes, I see your point.

 

Although If someone shields a person, sooner or later they would have to unshield him, so the shielded chaneller would know that it would eventually end and he would channel again (if he was not killed in that case the depression wouldn't matter anyway)

 

So psychologically the effect of knowing that you will never ever have a taste of the OP again(severing) is far more devastating, than knowing you can't touch it for now (shielded)

[Hagazussa]

Although If someone shields a person, sooner or later they would have to unshield him, so the shielded chaneller would know that it would eventually end and he would channel again (if he was not killed in that case the depression wouldn't matter anyway)

 

I do see your point but there have been characters in situations where they where not able to channel and had no idea if they would ever be let out of that situation again and they did not react as a severed channeler would, though it was not a situation they where happy with.

 

So psychologically the effect of knowing that you will never ever have a taste of the OP again(severing) is far more devastating, than knowing you can't touch it for now (shielded)

 

I agree that off course the finality of it probably makes the situation worse, but I do not think that is all of the effect, or rather I do not think that it is all about addiction. I think that once someone have started channeling, even if it is just a hint then it is part of them and it is a part that will be devastating to remove, not just for them being addicted but for them not being complete beings without this ability they where born with. In short I think that if a Warder suddenly found he could channel, even if he just did it once and immediately recognized the signs and surrendered and got severed then he would not be okey, he might survive yes since his Aes Sedai gave him something to live for, but I think he would know something was missing inside of him that was supposed to be there and while I to would assume that he would have an easier time of it than someone who had been channeling for a while I do think it would be a problem, it is not a let us have this taken care off before dinner please I have a meeting kind of thing even if the channeler have not been doing it for very long.

[Whizbang]

Severing causes damage. This is evidenced by the fact it can be healed. Channeling is due to a physical property of the channeler (genetics allow a person to channel, otherwise no "culling" would have occurred to change the population % of people who can channel to from 3% in the AoL to 1% in the 3rd age). So, severing causes a physical imparement, most likely in the mind. There is a gaping wound in the mind of the channeler. Over time the brain may re-route certain synaptic connections to allow for a somewhat normal functionality, but for a good long time, the brain would not be working properly. Maybe there is also a metaphysical aspect of it as well (ie the soul itself is damaged) that further complicates it, but the physical damage alone would be enough, IMO, to cause the loss of a will to live and the general depression.

[Suttree]

Severing causes damage. This is evidenced by the fact it can be healed. Channeling is due to a physical property of the channeler (genetics allow a person to channel, otherwise no "culling" would have occurred to change the population % of people who can channel to from 3% in the AoL to 1% in the 3rd age). So, severing causes a physical imparement, most likely in the mind. There is a gaping wound in the mind of the channeler. Over time the brain may re-route certain synaptic connections to allow for a somewhat normal functionality, but for a good long time, the brain would not be working properly. Maybe there is also a metaphysical aspect of it as well (ie the soul itself is damaged) that further complicates it, but the physical damage alone would be enough, IMO, to cause the loss of a will to live and the general depression.

 

We know Cadsuane has had great success in averting those symptoms in men who can channel however. The ones she has handled went on to assimilate and live a normal life(although still a bit shorter than a normal life span).

[Whizbang]

^^ Thanks. This lead me to the thought: Is there a difference between being severed while holding/embracing/seizing the source and not (ie shielded or just not actvely touching the source)? I would imagine the damage caused while actively touching the source would be more severe. Something like what Rand did at Dumai's Wells, crushing the soft spots with fists of spirit, would cause a lot more mental damage and distress than a razor sharp weave of spirit while the channeler is squatting in the bushes or sleeping.

 

The Reds, obviously, don't seem to care about what damage they cause. They do not care about the life of the individual man. They merely care about preventing another Breaking. So, they seem to be willing to just slash/crush with a weave of spirit, right in the field. But what about when a man is brought in for gentling? How is that done? Do they just say, "Ok, Red, have some fun?" or has there been an effort to find the least damaging way to gentle a man? The way they care for Logain implies they are at least attempting to save the individual's sanity and life, but if Cadsuane has had as much success as you imply, Suttree, then why is her method not the standard method? Or is the survival of the males she severs more due to her refusal to just tag and bag, and her willingness to support the individual after the cutting?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Whizbang

[Suttree]

The way they care for Logain implies they are at least attempting to save the individual's sanity and life, but if Cadsuane has had as much success as you imply, Suttree, then why is her method not the standard method? Or is the survival of the males she severs more due to her refusal to just tag and bag, and her willingness to support the individual after the cutting?

 

I think it has to do with how she goes about it from a support perspective, but that is a good question. Here is where the info comes from...

 

RJ

In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal. They eventually died short of a normal span, but they lived considerably longer than usual.

[Sid]

I take it most Reds view male channelers as wild animals to be put down. They barely follow the letter of Tower Law concerning their treatment, and sometimes don't even do that (like with Owyn).

[yoniy0]

Now if one keep a channeler shielded for a long period of time they will not get the depression that comes with severing, will they be frustrated, oh hell yes, would it be uncomfortable, definitely, but they do not get suicidal and just plain lethargic in the same way

This is, in fact, not accurate. So much so that Moghedien felt the need to Compel Liandrin not to take her own life after she perma-tied a Shield on her.

 

Suttree, EncyclopediaWoT claims that Algarin's brother only lived for ten years after being gentled, so perhaps "considerably longer" isn't really what you'd consider "long" (see what I did there? )

[Hagazussa]

Severing causes damage. This is evidenced by the fact it can be healed. Channeling is due to a physical property of the channeler (genetics allow a person to channel, otherwise no "culling" would have occurred to change the population % of people who can channel to from 3% in the AoL to 1% in the 3rd age). So, severing causes a physical imparement, most likely in the mind. There is a gaping wound in the mind of the channeler. Over time the brain may re-route certain synaptic connections to allow for a somewhat normal functionality, but for a good long time, the brain would not be working properly. Maybe there is also a metaphysical aspect of it as well (ie the soul itself is damaged) that further complicates it, but the physical damage alone would be enough, IMO, to cause the loss of a will to live and the general depression.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying though I do not think severing causes physical damage, I think the damage is metaphysical, and in the mind on a non physical level as in there is no damage to the channeler's brain it is the more spiritual parts of him or her which is the problem. I do however agree that it causes a gaping hole in the mind of the channeler. I also think it sounds like it might be a part of the soul we are talking about, not the soul itself but definitely a part of it.

 

One thing though the way a severed channeler deteriorates generally do not work like they are getting better over time. Rather they seam to get worse with time. Probably they are rather bad right after the severing, if the weave itself causes them pain like I think that might take it's toll as well as the pure shock and horror of the thing, but once they have recovered some they seam to deteriorate from that paint getting more and more passive unless they are able to kill themselves. Something that they feel strongly about can get them out of that for a while but unless they find something to completely dedicate themselves to they will continue to deteriorate, not get better,

 

Logain at the White Tower is suicidal, he is seen weeping and appear to be in a rather bad condition, but at least he repeatedly manage to get away from the Accepted who is to care for him, then when he and the girls escape he perks up for a while, hunting, causing trouble and managing to save the party from some soldiers and generally being rather useful, but then after a while he deteriorates again until he completely stop doing anything than eat if someone puts food in his hands and walk in the direction they say, then when Siuan begin to plot with him he perks up again to the point where he can function fairly well, but in either case, until he is healed he just go on direction, down with short periods of betterment when he is given some purpose.

 

^^ Thanks. This lead me to the thought: Is there a difference between being severed while holding/embracing/seizing the source and not (ie shielded or just not actvely touching the source)? I would imagine the damage caused while actively touching the source would be more severe. Something like what Rand did at Dumai's Wells, crushing the soft spots with fists of spirit, would cause a lot more mental damage and distress than a razor sharp weave of spirit while the channeler is squatting in the bushes or sleeping.

 

Well I assume that a channeler who is holding the Power can resist or at least try to just as with a shield. Also there is probably a big difference in how much trauma there is in one controlled, sharp weave and a very angry mage crushing your spiritual parts as a combat maneuver, like the difference between someone cutting your leg off with a sharp axe and someone tearing it of at the socket with brute force. Both causes allot of distress and pain but one do allot more damage and is just more brutal.

 

But what about when a man is brought in for gentling? How is that done? Do they just say, "Ok, Red, have some fun?" or has there been an effort to find the least damaging way to gentle a man?

 

When a man is brought in he is given a trial where they determine if he is a man and if he can channel. No actual scene where you have had a severing at the Tower is shown, but in Egwene visit to the three arches she sees Rand about to be gentled in one of them, he was kept bound, and presumably shielded and placed in the middle of a circle of Aes Sedai who where to do the deed. To me it seamed like a rather ordered thing much like an execution rather than just letting the Reds "have fun." It is also mentioned that it is done with a circle of 13 consisting of the Amyrlin and the 12 strongest Sitters which probably means they use the strongest to be able to do it as quickly and humanly as possible.

 

The Aes Sedai have probably tried to find kinder ways to do gentling but I do not think there is any way to do less damage other than to just do it as quickly as possible. Moghedien thought that it was said the severing was the deepest pain anyone could know beyond any power to deaden so for the weave itself it can probably not really be done in a humane way, only in a less gruesome way.

 

The way they care for Logain implies they are at least attempting to save the individual's sanity and life, but if Cadsuane has had as much success as you imply, Suttree, then why is her method not the standard method? Or is the survival of the males she severs more due to her refusal to just tag and bag, and her willingness to support the individual after the cutting?

 

Well there is care and there is care, what the Tower do for Logain is to put an Accepted to watch him to make sure he do not kill himself and provide him with basic needs, get him out into the sunlight now and again and try to get him to eat and so on, but they do not really do anything to keep him active, to me what they do seam more like the Aes Sedai wanting to feel good about themselves and saying see we take good care of these men than actually wanting to help him. Cadsuane's method probably involves quite a bit of work and effort, both before and after to not only get them to go and sit on a bench and eat a little, but get them to accept what have happened and come to terms with it and then seek out a life for themselves, it probably involves actually caring as well as knowing when to give comfort and when to give them a stern talking to about getting out of bed and doing something, and I do not think most Aes Sedai would want to spend that much time and effort on a former male channeler, it is easier just to set an Accepted to make sure he do not kill himself as soon as he find something sharp or a tall ledge and just forget that he is there. Also one more thing is that Aes Sedai do not enjoy being around those who have been severed, to see someone who have been through your worst nightmare is not easy or comfortable which would probably make many not to motivated to even try.

 

We know Cadsuane has had great success in averting those symptoms in men who can channel however. The ones she has handled went on to assimilate and live a normal life(although still a bit shorter than a normal life span).

 

Well not even close to a normal life span. Emarin was the one who lived the longest the way I have understood it lived for 10 years after he was gentled which is quite impressive compared to the one to thee years which is the norm, but he would have most likely been somewhere in his twenties, perhaps early thirties when Cadsuane found him which would have made him at most in his 40's but probably in his late 30's when he died so that is rather far from a normal life span. There have been burned out Aes Sedai though who have managed to find a family or some cause and who have lived fairly long, though most of them also die within a fairly short time.

 

This is, in fact, not accurate. So much so that Moghedien felt the need to Compel Liandrin not to take her own life after she perma-tied a Shield on her.

 

True but I have always seen this as less to do with the shield and more to do with what else Moggy have and might do to her since Forsaken is not known to be to nice to those who have displeased them.

[mb]

I'm rereading aCoS. In Chapter 32 Sealed to the Flame, when Covarla told her something about Gawyn, Elaida's response was:

“Forget Gawyn Trakand,” Elaida ordered sourly. That young man remained alive to trouble her plans, it seemed. If Galina did turn out to be alive still, she would pay for failing in that, on top of letting al’Thor escape.

It seems that killing Gawyn was Elaida's plan. That's why I ask.

That scene I take as no more than wanting him dead; not necessarily making plans for him to become dead.

The second quoted sentence I think tells at least one reason for her wanting him dead.

 

I recall various scenes that might indicate a Light-sided character wanting some other one dead. Would search for the exact scenes later; though I recall that they were in the first several books. Yet those characters never made plans to make the other dead.

Nynaeve seemed to want Moiraine dead. Elayne and Egwene seemed to want Elaida dead; and later Suian.

[aranyaka]

I'm rereading aCoS. In Chapter 32 Sealed to the Flame, when Covarla told her something about Gawyn, Elaida's response was:

“Forget Gawyn Trakand,” Elaida ordered sourly. That young man remained alive to trouble her plans, it seemed. If Galina did turn out to be alive still, she would pay for failing in that, on top of letting al’Thor escape.

It seems that killing Gawyn was Elaida's plan. That's why I ask.

That scene I take as no more than wanting him dead; not necessarily making plans for him to become dead.

The second quoted sentence I think tells at least one reason for her wanting him dead.

 

I recall various scenes that might indicate a Light-sided character wanting some other one dead. Would search for the exact scenes later; though I recall that they were in the first several books. Yet those characters never made plans to make the other dead.

Nynaeve seemed to want Moiraine dead. Elayne and Egwene seemed to want Elaida dead; and later Suian.

If it was only wanting, why she thought Galina should be punish for "failing in that" ?

[Hagazussa]

I recall various scenes that might indicate a Light-sided character wanting some other one dead. Would search for the exact scenes later; though I recall that they were in the first several books. Yet those characters never made plans to make the other dead.

Nynaeve seemed to want Moiraine dead. Elayne and Egwene seemed to want Elaida dead; and later Suian.

 

Being on the "Light side" is no guarantee that someone are angels, it only means that a person have not joined the forces of the Shadow. It is not a straight forward good vs evil thing. There is no reason why a Light sided character can not wish someone dead or even commit cold blooded murder for that matter. Most of the Children of the Light for example are on the side of the Light to a fair number of them are brutal bastards. Most red Ajah member, though there are fair number of Black Ajah among them, are on the side of the Light even with the horrible things they do, and in fact most murderers and thieves would get enraged if someone suggested they where with the Shadow. You can have "evil" plans and deeds and wishes and still be on the side of the Light.

[Crisapx]

I have a question.

 

When was it first clear that Thom and Morain were to be a couple?

 

I didn't caught it until I read the letter for thom from Morain, and it kinda caught me by surprise.

I knew that Morain had someone that she loved, but I didn't know it was Thom...