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[Terez]

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

From EncWoT http://encyclopaedia.../taringail.html

 

Taringail plots to become the first king of Andor. Thom Merrilin learns of the plot and Taringail dies in a "hunting accident". (TSR,Ch17, TFoH,Ch19)

 

Recall that Thom is known as the Grey Fox.. and has 'very special' knives. He's not just a gleeman.

 

I suppose I failed to read between the lines or something. I mean I got the while he killed Galladrian or whatever, but I never got the hunting accident one. WTF.

 

Let me direct you to a quote from a different thread.

 

It's been hinted at and conjectured but not certain that Thom is a double-regicide. Galdrian we're almost 100% sure he killed and we know the reason. About Taraingail, there is a hint however, in Moiraine's conversation with him in TSR. Chapter 17

Her smile was just short of laughter' date=' but she spoke as if reading from a page. “Thomdril Merrilin. Called

the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in

Caemlyn. Morgase’s lover for a time, after Taringail died. [b']Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail’s death. I do not

suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor’s first king. [/b]But we were speaking of

Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a

man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name.”

Clearly Moiraine thought he had and Moiraine had a personal interest since she was Taraingail's step sister.

 

http://www.dragonmou...lled-tarangail/

 

So it seems like one of those things that have never been clarified but is intuitively obvious to the astute reader.

 

Sonofa...

 

How the bloody hell did I miss that.

 

Also...

 

By spring of 979, Cairhien, having lost its King and much of its military might to the Aiel War, underwent an internal political realignment of Houses, also known as the Fourth War of Cairhienin Succession, which resulted in House Damodred losing the throne to House Riatin. The conflict was played out primarily through the great Game of Houses and never quite broke out into a civil war, which is not to say, of course, that there was no bloodletting, but none of the many battles involved more than a few hundred men on either side. This political reorganization seemed to bring with it an end to hostilities with Andor, but it also meant that Taringail Damodred would no longer be able to fulfill his dream of having a son on the throne of Cairhien and a daughter on the throne of Andor. Those close to him have said this embittered him, and some believe that he may have planned to take the Lion Throne of Andor for himself. He was assassinated in 984, leaving all plans unexecuted. Most sources believe the assassination was ordered by House Riatin of Cairhien as a means of preventing any coup by the heir to House Damodred, but there were rumors that it was done by someone loyal to Morgase, to protect her from Taringail’s ambition.

[Tiinker]

Have we come across any Tinker Aes Sedai?

[Suttree]

Have we come across any Tinker Aes Sedai?

 

King Easar's AS advisor Aisling Noon for one. She chose the Green Ajah and helped guard the blight. She was captured and bonded by the Ashaman.

[Orderofolde]

The sphere represents the cohesive nature of the Aiel, and ji'e'toh is the only thing holding them together. I doubt the shape is particularly significant; the only spherical objects are the planets, the moon, etc. and it's a stretch to apply it to the Earth itself.

 

No, the San'Angrel were huge globes.

 

The Stone is half a sphere (A giant dome).

 

But I guess it could be right, hopefully we'll find out.

I could have sworn that the dream Egwene had was of a crystal sphere held in a hand sticking out of a mountain and of Rand cutting the ropes that held the shards of it together, signifying the destruction of the Chodan Kal to come.

[Suttree]

The sphere represents the cohesive nature of the Aiel, and ji'e'toh is the only thing holding them together. I doubt the shape is particularly significant; the only spherical objects are the planets, the moon, etc. and it's a stretch to apply it to the Earth itself.

 

No, the San'Angrel were huge globes.

 

The Stone is half a sphere (A giant dome).

 

But I guess it could be right, hopefully we'll find out.

I could have sworn that the dream Egwene had was of a crystal sphere held in a hand sticking out of a mountain and of Rand cutting the ropes that held the shards of it together, signifying the destruction of the Chodan Kal to come.

 

There was no hand or mountain in the dream.

[Thrasymachus]

Odd that a Tinker Aes Sedai would join the Greens, you'd think they'd naturally be Yellows or Browns, or maybe Grays. I suppose it's some sort of ironical statement either about the folly of the Tinkers in being pacifists in this day and Age, or about the corrupting nature of the White Tower.

[mb]

Odd that a Tinker Aes Sedai would join the Greens

I thought similarly when I read the comment.

Though I recall some scene in the books telling that Greens love men. Maybe one of her reasons related to that.

 

The scene I refer to is right after Egwene becomes Accepted.

[Terez]

I always assumed she left the religion behind when she became an Aes Sedai; there's nothing to indicate otherwise.

[Thrasymachus]

No doubt that's true, Terez, but that's still kinda a big deal. Aside from the Aiel's history revealed in the glass columns, Aram's the only other Tinker we see abandon the Way of the Leaf, and it was a pretty big deal for him, and indeed for the Aiel as well. People are supposed to join the Way, not abandon it. And I don't see anything about being an Aes Sedai that requires one to abandon the Way of the Leaf. It would have been more interesting to see an Aes Sedai that did follow the Way, instead of an Aes Sedai that used to before she shawled, but no longer does.

[Durinax]

No doubt that's true, Terez, but that's still kinda a big deal. Aside from the Aiel's history revealed in the glass columns, Aram's the only other Tinker we see abandon the Way of the Leaf, and it was a pretty big deal for him, and indeed for the Aiel as well. People are supposed to join the Way, not abandon it. And I don't see anything about being an Aes Sedai that requires one to abandon the Way of the Leaf. It would have been more interesting to see an Aes Sedai that did follow the Way, instead of an Aes Sedai that used to before she shawled, but no longer does.

Its a big deal for aram because his grandparents disowned him. Likely the AS felt the same thing when she was dropped off at the WT, especially considering the tinkers disdain for larger settlements

[Terez]

Aram was a very troubled young man. I doubt that everyone who leaves the Way behind takes it as badly as he did. For one thing, his grandparents thought he found the Way difficult before he turned. For another thing, his transformation came about traumatically with the death of his parents and most of his band. For a girl who gets shipped off to the Tower, separated from the People completely, it's easy to see how such a change could come about with little trauma. Most girls spend ten years or more in training before having the freedom to leave the Tower.

[Sharaman]

No doubt that's true, Terez, but that's still kinda a big deal. Aside from the Aiel's history revealed in the glass columns, Aram's the only other Tinker we see abandon the Way of the Leaf, and it was a pretty big deal for him, and indeed for the Aiel as well. People are supposed to join the Way, not abandon it. And I don't see anything about being an Aes Sedai that requires one to abandon the Way of the Leaf. It would have been more interesting to see an Aes Sedai that did follow the Way, instead of an Aes Sedai that used to before she shawled, but no longer does.

I'd say the oaths (which are a matter of interpretation) would conflict with the way.

They define situations when the AS is not allowed to use force (at least not with the OP).

 

The AS oaths imply that she has to defend herself, her AS sisters and her warders (if any) against a threat to life.

AS are also free to kill Shadowspawn on sight using the OP without any issues. They are allowed to, and even encouraged to, use force to restrain or kill DFs.

 

Finally there is very little chance that any AS would pass the test for the shawl without using force.

The test in the ter'angreal specifically looks for weaknesses and with a tinker, you can bet those sadistic bxxxxs would push her buttons.

[Thrasymachus]

They don't imply that she has to defend herself, just that she might defend herself. Not all of the Sedai are sadistic bitches, and many might well be impressed that a Tinker initiate manages to keep to the Way, even under extreme pressure. The tests for the shawl are specific to the Sedai, and a Tinker's test may very well have provided her with a way to keep to the Way, while putting her under extreme pressure and temptation to abandon it, as a means of testing her character.

 

And there's a lot of internal pressure within the Tinker society to remain with the Way of the Leaf. They appear to be a lot like evangelical Amish in that sense. We haven't seen any member of Tinker society who's abandoned the Way still be accepted or acknowledged by the remaining Tinkers. There's a whole lot of precedent, the entire Aiel race as well as Aram, for Tinkers who abandon the way being cast out of Tinker society. Being cast out of the society you're born into is a big deal, no matter who you are. And Aram being troubled is what led him to consider abandoning the Way in the first place. He actually didn't take it too badly when his grandparents disowned him, it was rather like he expected and accepted it as a consequence to what he was choosing. And being troubled, in some sense, appears to be a prerequisite to abandoning the Way if you're a Tinker anyway.

 

In any event, I'd expect at least a few Sedai from the Tinkers to at least try to keep to the Way, but we don't see anything like that, and there doesn't appear to be any good reason why we shouldn't see that, especially since a truly pacifist Sedai, especially a respected one, would be interesting.

[thisguy]

How do you fight the shadow without giving up the way of the leaf? I'm guessing an Aes Sedai would be required to roast trollocs and fades if they came upon them and there was the need to protect others. Even if an Aes Sedai who was a Tinker attempted to follow the Way, I'm guessing they'd have to give it up eventually. They'd also have to follow orders from their superiors and, while the story never really brings us there, I'm guessing there might be ways to break the Way without physical violence - in other words, manipulating people into having to enact in physical violence.

[Thrasymachus]

How do you fight the shadow without giving up the way of the leaf?

 

The same way the Tinkers have always fought the Shadow, by trusting in the Pattern, you know, kinda like Moiraine does when attempting to help and guide Rand as Dragon Reborn. And I don't doubt that keeping to the Way as an active Sedai, at least as a Green or a Blue or a Red, would be hard, but it shouldn't be that hard for Yellows or Browns, or even Whites if they sequestered themselves in the Tower to do logic proofs all day every day for 300 years, which it appears that most of them do.

[Durinax]

How do you fight the shadow without giving up the way of the leaf?

 

The same way the Tinkers have always fought the Shadow, by trusting in the Pattern, you know, kinda like Moiraine does when attempting to help and guide Rand as Dragon Reborn. And I don't doubt that keeping to the Way as an active Sedai, at least as a Green or a Blue or a Red, would be hard, but it shouldn't be that hard for Yellows or Browns, or even Whites if they sequestered themselves in the Tower to do logic proofs all day every day for 300 years, which it appears that most of them do.

there are many essential non front line positions that would be required. Medic, message relays, logistics. And some front line ones that may not require actual combat, scout, vanguard defence (putting a physical barrier between enemy and ally), moving troops.

[Thrasymachus]

And Tinkers have shown a willingness to take on many of those positions in the midst of violence. They were ready to run the Two River's children to safety, and helped tend to the wounded and feed people, and I don't see why they wouldn't have participated in tending repairs to vital equipment, perhaps even armor, though not likely weapons.

[thisguy]

I hear what you're all saying but if you're an Aes Sedai and, Tinker or not, and some people are attacked by darkfriends, you have to act.

[Lisa Campbell]

They can act by wrapping up the enemy in air, they don't have to kill to be effective. Suian demonstrates this with Nynaeve and Egwene on the way to Tar Valon from Fal Dara.

[Barid Bel Medar]

They are no longer Tinkers, all initiates forsake their heritage when they become Aes Sedai.

 

Those that cannot do so - or at least cannot pretend to do so- are put out of the Tower. Not to say they would be sadistic bastards and torture the poor woman, but they would not allow any such compromise for Tinkers. They may afterwards choose to do no violence and take positions that require no violence (like browns or whites) but when it comes to the Tests? Not a chance.

[Clouded]

What does having Mat as Prince of the Ravens offer the empire?

 

-Tuon says she married to serve the empire, so Mat must offer something

-Mat's a good general, but just cause he's married doesn't mean he has to serve the empire. In fact he expects that the next time he sees Seanchan, he will be fighting them.

 

The only other explanation is that Tuon married him strictly due to the foretelling, and that he does not offer anything. She waits until she is set free to finally pull the trigger on getting married.

"Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other."

 

Can anyone else explain why Tuon married Mat?

[Terez]

She observed that he was a good general. That's enough really. It also gives her a connection to unconquered lands.

[Vardar]

What does having Mat as Prince of the Ravens offer the empire?

 

-Tuon says she married to serve the empire, so Mat must offer something

-Mat's a good general, but just cause he's married doesn't mean he has to serve the empire. In fact he expects that the next time he sees Seanchan, he will be fighting them.

 

The only other explanation is that Tuon married him strictly due to the foretelling, and that he does not offer anything. She waits until she is set free to finally pull the trigger on getting married.

"Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other."

 

Can anyone else explain why Tuon married Mat?

 

Where did she say she married to serve the Empire? (curious)

 

Well, every royal marriage is technically made to serve your country. By marrying Mat, she secured the Empire (In theory) one of the greatest generals on the planet, secured a way to not fight his army (Saving the Empire lives) and makes ties to the Lord Dragon (Perhaps).

 

But I'm pretty sure it's the same reason Mat married her, self-fufilled prophecy. These two dummies were told by people who can "Tell the future" that they will marry someone, and at no point do they stop and think, Umm, I'm not marrying anyone unless I want too. Instead they actively look out for that person, then when they find them, resign themselves to being married. Really? Those dummies. (Although I love the two characters, that part made me laugh)

[Clouded]

Tuon says it straight out after the marriage.

 

"Love?" Tuon sounded surprised. "Perhaps we will come to love one another, Matrim, but I have always known I would marry to serve the Empire."

 

And I could see the "Ties to unconquered lands" benefit making sense. Having a husband from Randland would make Tuon more agreeable to people of lands she may conquer.

[Thrasymachus]

I don't recall where it says that Aes Sedai have to abandon their heritage when they shawl. Could you provide a quote for that? I know that with Moiraine, it was specifically because of her heritage, that is, Cairheinin nobility in line for the throne, that she had to dodge out of Tar Valon before the Tower could try to take advantage of that heritage, and try to put her on that throne.