Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Ludo]

Thank you.

[Icedragon]

I know there is evidence somewhere, but I can not recall atm and don't have access to the books right now. But Aginor and Balthameal were brought back, but I am trying to find the evidence in the books that says that they are Osan'gar and Aran'gar respectivily. Could someone help with this please?

[Terez]

In the scene where they were introduced (LOC prologue) Osan'gar thinks to himself, "He had never liked Halfmen. He had helped make the Trollocs, blending human and animal stock – he was proud of that, of the skill involved, the difficulty – but these occasional throwback offspring made him uneasy at the best of times." There are other references in LOC to the fact that Aginor was the one who created the Shadowspawn. From there, it's easy enough to figure out that the woman was Balthamel, partly because they died together, and partly because of the line in TEOTW, "I have almost forgotten the pleasures of the flesh....But Balthamel remembers much." Then the BWB was published, and everything we know about Osan'gar and Aran'gar fits with everything the BWB says about Aginor and Balthamel. For example, Arangar in KOD 3: "She was the only one who understood primitive cultures. They had been her specialty before the war." And from the BWB: "Balthamel, born Eval Ramman, was a historian specializing in the study of vanished cultures."

[Terez]

I think it was in this thread where we were discussing the altered a'dam? Anyway, just passed this in my reread:

 

"Wear it," she said as Elayne started to hang the bracelet on a wall peg with their clothes.

 

The golden-haired woman gave an affected sigh, but refastened the bracelet. In Nynaeve’s opinion, Elayne was entirely too trusting of the a’dam. True, so long as the necklace remained on Moghedien’s neck, any woman able to channel could find her with the bracelet, and control her. If no one wore the bracelet, she could not move more than a dozen paces from it without falling to her knees retching, and the same if she shifted the bracelet more than a few inches from where it had been left, or tried to unfasten the necklace herself. Maybe it would hold her even on the peg, but maybe one of the Forsaken could reason a way around that, given enough chances.

 

Good chapter name for this thread.

[Ludo]

The whole Shaidar Haran 0.5 thing, is that of the Dark One, or is it of Jordan?

[RandA lThor]

What do you mean, I don't understand.

[yoniy0]

Do we have it in canon, do you mean? Well, the fact that Myrddraal don't smile is well documented, as well as SH being an exception to that rule, so the hints are there. But straight out calling that Fade SH .5, no, that's from interviews with Jim.

[fikkie77]

The whole Shaidar Haran 0.5 thing, is that of the Dark One, or is it of Jordan?

It's a term Jordan used to describe the smiling Fade visiting Bors (and others); it was an early version of what was to become Shaidar Haran. I think that if he was to write those scenes now, he would have replaced the strange smiling Fade with Shaidar Haran.

[Sephie913]

The whole Shaidar Haran 0.5 thing, is that of the Dark One, or is it of Jordan?

It's a term Jordan used to describe the smiling Fade visiting Bors (and others); it was an early version of what was to become Shaidar Haran. I think that if he was to write those scenes now, he would have replaced the strange smiling Fade with Shaidar Haran.

 

Noooooo!!!! X0

 

Actually, the R&D of Superfade is one of my favorite parts of the series. I think it was intentional, that RJ wouldn't hange a thing. it was foreshadowing that we don't get until our second read through. I mean, sure, it seems ominous during the first read through, but you appreciate it much more knowing what it becomes.

[Kudzu]

I think it was in this thread where we were discussing the altered a'dam? Anyway, just passed this in my reread:

 

"Wear it," she said as Elayne started to hang the bracelet on a wall peg with their clothes.

 

The golden-haired woman gave an affected sigh, but refastened the bracelet. In Nynaeve’s opinion, Elayne was entirely too trusting of the a’dam. True, so long as the necklace remained on Moghedien’s neck, any woman able to channel could find her with the bracelet, and control her. If no one wore the bracelet, she could not move more than a dozen paces from it without falling to her knees retching, and the same if she shifted the bracelet more than a few inches from where it had been left, or tried to unfasten the necklace herself. Maybe it would hold her even on the peg, but maybe one of the Forsaken could reason a way around that, given enough chances.

 

Good chapter name for this thread.

 

What I don't get about this is that I'm sure there are many times in the text where no ones wearing the bracelet and Moggy is off doing chores or something. Shouldn't she be on the ground retching the second one of them takes it off if she's more than a dozen paces away?

[RandA lThor]

They aren't, i thought that they were always wearing the bracelet when she did chores especially because of Nynaeve's paranoia.

[Kudzu]

So what about this quote that a5m posted a few pages back:

 

In the middle of Fire and Spirit...

 

With a sigh she started down the street. Elayne came along as though she had been invited. That helped Nynaeve find the anger she was going to need. Abruptly she realized that Elayne's wrists were bare. "Where is the bracelet?" she asked softly. No one in the street would understand if they heard, but caution once forgotten could be forgotten once too often. "Where is Marigan?" "The bracelet is in my pouch, Nynaeve." Elayne stepped aside to let a high-wheeled cart pass, then joined Nynaeve again be* hind the cart. "Marigan is doing our laundry, with about twenty other women around her. And groaning every time she moves. She said something she didn't think Birgitte would hear, and Birgitte.... I had to take the thing off, Nynaeve. Birgitte had the right, and it hurt. I told Marigan to say she fell down some stairs."

Nynaeve sniffed, but her heart was not in it. She had not been wearing the bracelet much of late....

 

Emphasis mine.

 

So Elayne's just wandering around with the bracelet in her pouch, but Moggy's off doing laundry? She should be on her knees retching if the previous quote by Terez is correct. I'm sure there are other occurrences like this as well.

[RandA lThor]

Very interesting....... Well, I think this is a mistake by RJ, because he contradicted himself, unless if the Forsaken do have something that can make them less resistant to a'dam. Maybe they know something that we never do, but i doubt it. Probably just an honest mistake by RJ.

[a5m]

Or the a'dams have more differences than the missing leash.

[Suttree]

So what about this quote that a5m posted a few pages back:

 

In the middle of Fire and Spirit...

 

With a sigh she started down the street. Elayne came along as though she had been invited. That helped Nynaeve find the anger she was going to need. Abruptly she realized that Elayne's wrists were bare. "Where is the bracelet?" she asked softly. No one in the street would understand if they heard, but caution once forgotten could be forgotten once too often. "Where is Marigan?" "The bracelet is in my pouch, Nynaeve." Elayne stepped aside to let a high-wheeled cart pass, then joined Nynaeve again be* hind the cart. "Marigan is doing our laundry, with about twenty other women around her. And groaning every time she moves. She said something she didn't think Birgitte would hear, and Birgitte.... I had to take the thing off, Nynaeve. Birgitte had the right, and it hurt. I told Marigan to say she fell down some stairs."

Nynaeve sniffed, but her heart was not in it. She had not been wearing the bracelet much of late....

 

Emphasis mine.

 

So Elayne's just wandering around with the bracelet in her pouch, but Moggy's off doing laundry? She should be on her knees retching if the previous quote by Terez is correct. I'm sure there are other occurrences like this as well.

 

All it means is she needs to be in the same general place doing laundry and can't move more than twelve steps away. Elayne could go back and get her or place the bracelet back on when it was time to move on...

Edited May 30, 2012 by Suttree

[Kudzu]

I think it's a mistake too. But which bit?

 

I'm more inclined to believe it is possible to move away from an unworn bracelet with the necklace on and the first quote was a mistake.

 

The only reason you can't do it with a regular a'dam is because of the chain.

[Sephie913]

Maybe it's like the angreal, where they CAN draw the Power through it without touching it directly, bit it's more difficult. IIRC, Rand thought as much when the fat little man angreal was in his shirt pocket. (don't remember when, sorry)So maybe as long as the bracelet is within "angreal" distance, they're okay.

 

10% on that, though. 90%, I think it's an honest mistake. I can't believe I never thought about that before.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Sephie

[Kudzu]

All it means is she needs to be in the same general place doing laundry and can't move more than twelve steps away. Elayne could go back and get her or place the bracelet back on when it was time to move on...

 

That's not what the text suggests to me.

 

If no one wore the bracelet, she could not move more than a dozen paces from it without falling to her knees retching

 

That says twelve paces from the bracelet not twelve paces from where she was when the bracelet was removed.

 

RJ contradicted himself.

[mb]

Mesaana's condition, was it something Egwene did or something Mesaana inadvertently brought upon herself or what?

And how (regardless of the who/what)?

 

If Egwene, was it intentional or non-intentional?

[RandA lThor]

It was Egwene I think. Bair stopped calling her a child because she was able to do that and it was intentional in the way that Egwene was fighting Mesaana, but unintentional in the way that she didn't know what would happen. i think it was done because they were both trying to create two opposite things in TAR which creates an impossiblity, eventually, Mesaana's whole mind broke with the effort and the force of Egwene's mind.

[Knivy]

I think you guys are missing the "groaning every time she moves." It seems to me that Elayne put her there not that she went there without the bracelet being worn.

 

But a mistake by RJ is also likely.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Knivy

[RandA lThor]

No I saw that, but being that far would much worse than groaning and they gave an explanation of that.

[Knivy]

Oh, sorry then.

[RandA lThor]

it's fine, it was a good observation.

[Kudzu]

I think you guys are missing the "groaning every time she moves." It seems to me that Elayne put her there not that she went there without the bracelet being worn.

 

But a mistake by RJ is also likely.

 

She's groaning every time she moves because Birgette beat her up, nothing to do with the bracelet:

 

And groaning every time she moves. She said something she didn't think Birgitte would hear, and Birgitte.... I had to take the thing off, Nynaeve. Birgitte had the right, and it hurt. I told Marigan to say she fell down some stairs