Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[yoniy0]

Asmodean wasn't talking about present-day AS, but female channelers in general:

Asmodean was not finished. "If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong epough, they can match a man. And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard. I came across a saying in Arad Doman. 'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.' It would not be bad to remember it."

Regardless, your analysis seems to be fairly accurate, though nowhere was it said that RJ power-levels were on a linear scale; it could be that a channeler of the 2nd level is more (or less) than twice as powerful as one of the 1st, and so on.

[Luckers]

Asmodean wasn't talking about present-day AS, but female channelers in general:

Asmodean was not finished. "If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong epough, they can match a man. And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard. I came across a saying in Arad Doman. 'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.' It would not be bad to remember it."

Regardless, your analysis seems to be fairly accurate, though nowhere was it said that RJ power-levels were on a linear scale; it could be that a channeler of the 2nd level is more (or less) than twice as powerful as one of the 1st, and so on.

 

Asmodean made two statements here.

 

1. "Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked."

2. "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower [Rand] or any man."

 

This is precisely as I stated. Thirteen 1's could overpower most men, but not all--and all those statements to the effect that thirteen linked could overpower any man are in relation to the Tower, which maintains a lower strength limit.

[yoniy0]

It indeed very nearly matches your description, as I acknowledged. However, you repeated twice that all references to a circle of thirteen were made with connection to modern AS, and as you say Asmodean's first point did not. Secondly, by your calculation thirteen 1's would hardly stand at the median of masculine strength, which doesn't fit Asmodean's claim unless 1's are even rarer that we're aware (meaning Asmodean didn't think a full circle of thirteen such women was plausible enough to even contemplate), which is why I suggested the strength levels might not be proportional to their indices.

Edited August 28, 2011 by yoniy0

[ironisles]

Just started reading TGS. Avi's pov while they are approaching the manor house, thinking she will lay a bridal wreath at Rand's feet.. isn't that backwards? In WH's she said she would pick up his wreath if he laid it at her feet. Did i get that wrong?

[Luckers]

It indeed very nearly matches your description, as I acknowledged. However, you repeated twice that all references to a circle of thirteen were made with connection to modern AS, and as you say Asmodean's first point did not. Secondly, by your calculation thirteen 1's would hardly stand at the median of masculine strength, which doesn't fit Asmodean's claim unless 1's are even rarer that we're aware (meaning Asmodean didn't think a full circle of thirteen such women was plausible enough to even contemplate), which is why I suggested the strength levels might not be proportional to their indices.

 

I stated that the idea that any circle of thirteen could shield any male was always linked to the Aes Sedai, not that all refrences to circles were always Aes Sedai.

 

From there, I asked Maria about this...

 

20. Question--Is strength in the power evenly distributed? Would on a scale of one to one hundred the most channelers be on the 50 mark? (within a gender, of course).

 

Maria Answers--Jim described it as a bell curve, with most channelers in the middle

 

A half-strength, which is what we're talking about when we speak of a circle of thirteen 1's, would therefore be able to hold a shield on the vast majority of men.

[yoniy0]

Just started reading TGS. Avi's pov while they are approaching the manor house, thinking she will lay a bridal wreath at Rand's feet.. isn't that backwards? In WH's she said she would pick up his wreath if he laid it at her feet. Did i get that wrong?

No, I think she was trying to be 'wetlander-y' in WH's Lily in Winter. What we learned of Aiel marriage practices in TSR matches Aviendha's thoughts from TGS.

 

EDIT:

A half-strength, which is what we're talking about when we speak of a circle of thirteen 1's, would therefore be able to hold a shield on the vast majority of men.

Ah, I see your point. And mostly agree

Edited August 28, 2011 by yoniy0

[ironisles]

Just started reading TGS. Avi's pov while they are approaching the manor house, thinking she will lay a bridal wreath at Rand's feet.. isn't that backwards? In WH's she said she would pick up his wreath if he laid it at her feet. Did i get that wrong?

No, I think she was trying to be 'wetlander-y' in WH's Lily in Winter. What we learned of Aiel marriage practices in TSR matches Aviendha's thoughts from TGS.

 

Ah..ok. my bad..I'd forgotten that.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Rulius

[Din]

A small amendment to Lucker's posts above; Sorilea has the same strength in the power as Morgase does.

[Leyrann]

The Thirteenth Depository says that Sorilea is one level stronger than Morgase. Below on that page is why she is put one lever higher.

[Luckers]

Indeed, Sorilea can attain the Source whenever she wishes, Morgase cannot. Whatever disagreements Linda and I hold over her list of strengths on the 13th Depo, we agree on that. Sorilea stands above Morgase.

[Din]

The difference between Morgase and Sorilea is one of training, not of ability.

 

Also, thanks for that list. I disagree with some of the ratings and the way it appears to have been treated as a linear scale but it looks like a useful resource overall.

[Leyrann]

Who says it is not a linear scale?

 

And Morgase is trained too.

[Leyrann]

Can anyone post the link to Theoryland's interview data base? I can't find it.

[capuga]

Can anyone post the link to Theoryland's interview data base? I can't find it.

 

Here's Terez's database:

 

WoT Reference Library

[yoniy0]

The difference between Morgase and Sorilea is one of training, not of ability.

Morgase learned all that she could in the Tower. Aiel WO know a lot that the Tower doesn't, but rarely about the Power. No, I don't think that's it.

 

Who says it is not a linear scale?

Nobody. But there's nothing to suggest otherwise, as well.

 

Can anyone post the link to Theoryland's interview data base? I can't find it.

Sure can.

[Leyrann]

I have been there, but I just didn't scroll down. Thanks, Yoniy.

[Sharaman]

It's just a rough scale and unlikely to be linear.

If it's distributed on a bell curve with very long tails like real human ability such as the ability to sprint or swim quickly, then it's not going to be a linear scale.

Analogy -

The ability to run fast is roughly normally distributed with very long tails.

Very few people can run 100 metres in less than 12 seconds.They're already outliers.

But the number of people who can run 100m, in less than 10 seconds is almost vanishingly small - roughly 1 in 500 million.

If you mapped everybody would could run 100m in under 12 seconds with say 0.1 second intervals in sprinting ability, there would be long unpopulated gaps if you forced a linear scale.

Second, we've never seen onscreen any objective set of tests that the AS carried out to judge who was stronger.

Women just sense that x can draw more power than Y.

With men, it's even more difficult since all they can sense is a sense of strain if a man is drawing near his limit.

[csarmi]

Sharaman, your example is not very good. I can see what you're getting at, but the time to run 100m is not a linear function by nature.

 

s = v*t, or t = (s/v)

 

You may argue that v (your average speed) is linear (and distributed on a normal scale), but t could never be.

Edited August 29, 2011 by csarmi

[IAmTheDragonReborn]

So my question is about the variations in how many more powerful sa-angreals there were in existence at the end of the AoL. I know of at least 3 or 4 different quotes that contradict each other. When talking about Callandor, Lanfear I believed that only 2 more were made that a MAN could wield. So 1 is definitely the Access key for a MAN, whats the other one? Was it a miss print where it should have said "only two more were only made that were more powerful"

[Terez]

So my question is about the variations in how many more powerful sa-angreals there were in existence at the end of the AoL. I know of at least 3 or 4 different quotes that contradict each other.

Really? which are those?

 

When talking about Callandor, Lanfear I believed that only 2 more were made that a MAN could wield.

Two more powerful than Callandor.

 

So 1 is definitely the Access key for a MAN, whats the other one? Was it a miss print where it should have said "only two more were only made that were more powerful"

The other one, Lanfear wasn't sure if it still existed. The implication is that it probably doesn't.

[Sharaman]

Sharaman, your example is not very good. I can see what you're getting at, but the time to run 100m is not a linear function by nature.

 

s = v*t, or t = (s/v)

 

You may argue that v (your average speed) is linear (and distributed on a normal scale), but t could never be.

 

That is precisely my point! If the OP ability is distributed like the ability to run fast or to lift weights or some other common human attribute, it cannot be a linear function. If you forcibly decompose it into a linear function, it would have to be a scale with a lot of blanks.

 

Edit: I'm not talking about the non-linear nature of the acceleration function. A large population of humans will be distributed around a bell-curve, which is roughly normal but with very long tails in case of running ability, whether you take the average speed they attain or the maximum (the pt where acceleration = 0) . Most humans will be able to hit a certain velocity +/-2 standard deviations from the mean. A very few will be significantly quicker or slower. The difference between the running ability of an Olympic finalist and of an average college runner cannot be easily mapped on a linear scale even though the average college amateur is already into the long tail.

If you prefer, you can look at some other human ability such as the ability to lift weights. Again, this is a bell curve with very long tails.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Sharaman

[mackoY-kun]

Who's the Fat Man Angeal? did he have a sword on his lap? I was thinking he was Buddha.

Who was Moiraine's Angreal? I'm thinking she was a Virgin Mary Figure.

 

How about the other figures/statutes/statuettes through out eh series?

[Louise]

It's just a rough scale and unlikely to be linear. If it's distributed on a bell curve with very long tails like real human ability such as the ability to sprint or swim quickly, then it's not going to be a linear scale. Analogy - The ability to run fast is roughly normally distributed with very long tails. Very few people can run 100 metres in less than 12 seconds.They're already outliers. But the number of people who can run 100m, in less than 10 seconds is almost vanishingly small - roughly 1 in 500 million. If you mapped everybody would could run 100m in under 12 seconds with say 0.1 second intervals in sprinting ability, there would be long unpopulated gaps if you forced a linear scale. Second, we've never seen onscreen any objective set of tests that the AS carried out to judge who was stronger. Women just sense that x can draw more power than Y. With men, it's even more difficult since all they can sense is a sense of strain if a man is drawing near his limit.

 

 

Sharaman, your example is not very good. I can see what you're getting at, but the time to run 100m is not a linear function by nature.s = v*t, or t = (s/v)You may argue that v (your average speed) is linear (and distributed on a normal scale), but t could never be.

 

Absolutely hilarious (not to menton way WAY over my head) when given the thread title...

[yoniy0]

I'm gone for only a few hours, and everyone go crazy.

 

We will not be discussing common letter notation for various physical quantities, not on this board. If you care to continue doing so, I split the relevant posts to a new topic on the general (non-WoT) discussion board.

[Turin Turambar]

My question is about when Nyn healed Naeff's madness. IIRC she had to lift each barb individually then hold it away from the brain in order to heal each little wound and then she was able to apply the anti-Compulsion weave to get rid of the darkness. Would this require separate/split weaves for each barb? It reads as if there are dozens of them which would seem incredible.