What's Going on at the Black Tower? (Full Spoilers)

[wvlr2]

"Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m--"

 

Sounds very much like he was going to say "any more".

Could just as easy be "any men!"??

 

And considering that the Rebal AS have not left as far as we know, then "more" would not apply.  I doubt if the first group of Rebal AS could take all the 30 something men that Rand promised them.

 

Is there something else that points to why it would be "more" vs "men"?

[Cirin]

Could also be "any money!"  Or "any monkeys!"  Or "any malevolent male channelers!"  "Any morally ambigious path?"  "any more of our beer and nachos?"

 

There's all sorts of things he could have been saying.  What we know is that he didn't.

 

But yeah, it's probably just any more men, since some have been bonded already... and they probably don't like the idea of men working as Warders anyway.

[Durinax]

im curious as to whether there will be a treaty written up releasing all the channellers who have bonded each other. After all every ashaman and AS that has been bonded has been against their will. It was specifically stated that no soldier or dedicated could refuse

[Ashaman Kovan]

After all every ashaman and AS that has been bonded has been against their will.

 

You're not including Narishma and Flinn and their AS right? 

[Durinax]

After all every ashaman and AS that has been bonded has been against their will.

 

You're not including Narishma and Flinn and their AS right? 

yeah their the only ones though, and I think thats in question because teh AS probably coerced them in some way

[Sharaman]

"Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m--"

 

Sounds very much like he was going to say "any more".

Could just as easy be "any men!"??

 

And considering that the Rebal AS have not left as far as we know, then "more" would not apply.   I doubt if the first group of Rebal AS could take all the 30 something men that Rand promised them.

 

Is there something else that points to why it would be "more" vs "men"?

 

Assume Taim doesn't know what Mishraile is going to say.

Why would be clobber him to stop him saying "any men"; that's just a provocative opinion.

He might clobber him after he finished speaking because Mishraile is being sassy.

But Taim would surely clobber him if he feared Mishraile was about to say "any more" because that is information. He clearly wanted Mishraile to shut up. So I'm guessing that is a little hint as to timeline.

 

A tall, golden-haired man standing near the dais sneered at her. "Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m—" Something unseen struck the side of his head so hard that his feet left the floor tiles before he fell in a heap, eyes closed and blood trickling from his nostrils.

A lean man with receding gray-streaked hair and a forked beard bent to touch a finger to the fallen man's head. "He's alive," he said as he straightened, "but his skull's cracked and his jaw's broken." He might have been talking about the weather. None of the men made any move to offer Healing. Not one!

"I have some small skill in Healing." Melare said, gathering her skirts and already moving toward the fallen man. "Enough for this, I think. With your permission."

Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

 

"Guard his tongue" Taim says, not be "less insolent" or "not speak out of turn".

 

[Mcpatrick]

After all every ashaman and AS that has been bonded has been against their will.

 

You're not including Narishma and Flinn and their AS right? 

yeah their the only ones though, and I think thats in question because teh AS probably coerced them in some way

 

According to Alanna, they weren't coerced, but they were also afraid of returning to the black tower, since they believed that Taim would want their heads over the attack. (WH, when alanna speaks to rand in far madding)

[wvlr2]

"Guard his tongue" Taim says, not be "less insolent" or "not speak out of turn".

 

It could be as you say, but it could be Taim just does not like the Asha'man jumping in on the conversation between Taim and the AS.    Consider Elayne or Egwene if they were having a conversation with an ambassator to a different country or the WT, would they respond kindly to a member of their court jumping in uninvited with a very antaganistic remark?  No.  They surely would not have responded as brutally as Taim, but that's Taim.

 

Taim did almost exactly the same thing before many books back when Rand made a visit to the BT - I think it was when he gave them the Pins (Sword & Dragon).

 

Was that the same Ashaman - no?    I think that event would have more justification for your claim that Taim wanted to shut the guy up because it was outside and Taim was not "in court" plus the guy was practically challenging Rand.    Saying something like - "I think I could take you".    But I think that guy was one of the ones killed at "Far Madden".

 

I'm not saying that you are exactly wrong, just the words could go either way.    What concerns me more is that the BT guards gave no hint at all in word or behavior that there had been a Rebal group.

[Sharaman]

The other incident you're referring to, was an Ashaman who challenged Rand because he didn't know who he was. Taim saved that Ashaman's life by knocking him out.

The knockout of Mishraile is very different - he clearly wants Mishraile to shut up.

It is as much of a hint as you can expect in the circs.

We know anyway that two sets of AS have disappeared at the BT.

If you're looking for a timeline to who arrived first, you have two indicators that it was the erstwhile rebels.

 

 

[Fains nose]

Could showing Taim clubbing Mishraile be meant to highlite that he clubbed him with air, THE most basic thing you can do with the power. Surely if Taim was from the AoL or extensively trained by Moridin then he would of used something more advanced?

[StefanR]

Why?

 

If it's simple, fast, and works, why not use it?

[mb]

Could showing Taim clubbing Mishraile be meant to highlite that he clubbed him with air, THE most basic thing you can do with the power. Surely if Taim was from the AoL or extensively trained by Moridin then he would of used something more advanced?

Forsaken at times use "basic" weaves and might have acted similarly in the same situation.

 

[Durinax]

Could showing Taim clubbing Mishraile be meant to highlite that he clubbed him with air, THE most basic thing you can do with the power. Surely if Taim was from the AoL or extensively trained by Moridin then he would of used something more advanced?

Forsaken at times use "basic" weaves and might have acted similarly in the same situation.

 

why would taim use somethign really complicated, theres no gain to that

[Random Man]

Could showing Taim clubbing Mishraile be meant to highlite that he clubbed him with air, THE most basic thing you can do with the power. Surely if Taim was from the AoL or extensively trained by Moridin then he would of used something more advanced?

Forsaken at times use "basic" weaves and might have acted similarly in the same situation.

 

why would taim use somethign really complicated, theres no gain to that

Simple Is Good. Also, had he done something complex (if he'd even had the time to do it before Mishraile spilled the beans) or even significantly different, it might have roused the Reds' suspicions. Instead, they saw him act like an Aes Sedai using a switch of Air to goose a novice, just more violently.

[Jillain Sanche]

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

My impression on reading it was that Pevara and co. are totally up s--t creek without a paddle and they don't know it yet. They could have been turned to DFs against their will by this time.

[Luckers]

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

My impression on reading it was that Pevara and co. are totally up s--t creek without a paddle and they don't know it yet. They could have been turned to DFs against their will by this time.

 

Brandon said that there is about 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome that may not make into ToM in which case he'd try to get it put up on his website. Doesn't look like they're totally screwed.

[gambril]

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

My impression on reading it was that Pevara and co. are totally up s--t creek without a paddle and they don't know it yet. They could have been turned to DFs against their will by this time.

 

Brandon said that there is about 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome that may not make into ToM in which case he'd try to get it put up on his website. Doesn't look like they're totally screwed.

 

 

That's refreshing to hear :)  I like Pevara.  She's one of the few worthwhile Reds and Aes Sedai.

[OptimusPrime]

Could showing Taim clubbing Mishraile be meant to highlite that he clubbed him with air, THE most basic thing you can do with the power. Surely if Taim was from the AoL or extensively trained by Moridin then he would of used something more advanced?

Forsaken at times use "basic" weaves and might have acted similarly in the same situation.

 

why would taim use somethign really complicated, theres no gain to that

Simple Is Good. Also, had he done something complex (if he'd even had the time to do it before Mishraile spilled the beans) or even significantly different, it might have roused the Reds' suspicions. Instead, they saw him act like an Aes Sedai using a switch of Air to goose a novice, just more violently.

 

Plus Taim might not want to give away any cool weaves to these Third Age idiots, what with Taim being Ishamael and all.

[Deadsy]

Faolain was part of the rebel AS that went to the Black Tower right?  We know she ends up OK because Min doesn't like her and yet had a viewing where she said "If there was any fairness, you'd think she'd have something bad in her future" or something like that.  So we can probably assume they weren't killed outright or anything 'too' bad.  What I'm guessing Taim did was let them pick who they wanted to bond, but then told the Ashaman to bond the Aes Sedai instead.  Seems consistent with what we know about Taim, and then the Ashaman could just have told them not to leave and they'd have to obey.

 

I agree with this. They're either prisoners or they've been bonded (same thing). I doubt they've been turned, at least not all of them, because of Faolain being there.

 

I wonder if the whole point of us hearing so much about Tarna and Pevara is so we'd give a crap about what's happening to the Aes Sedai there. Because I do care. I really like both of them.

[Charlz Guybon]

I know Taim's last comment was, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". She thought it was funnt because she had never heard the saying before. All of Taim's cronies laughed.

 

My impression on reading it was that Pevara and co. are totally up s--t creek without a paddle and they don't know it yet. They could have been turned to DFs against their will by this time.

 

Brandon said that there is about 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome that may not make into ToM in which case he'd try to get it put up on his website. Doesn't look like they're totally screwed.

He should just jam it into the book, it still won't be as long as LOC or TSR.

[Deadsy]

He should just jam it into the book, it still won't be as long as LOC or TSR.

 

lol. There wouldn't be much left for aMoL then. At least not channeling battles. Unless some of Demandred's armies are more channelers.

[Charlz Guybon]

If he's thinking of putting it up on his website then he doesn't plan to put it in AMoL either.

 

Putting such a large story arc online seems odd to me.

[Deadsy]

If he's thinking of putting it up on his website then he doesn't plan to put it in AMoL either.

 

Putting such a large story arc online seems odd to me.

 

I'm confused, maybe.

 

Unless you're talking about the stuff about Pevara that he mentioned?

[Luckers]

Pevara Being Awesome. My Theory.

 

Firstly, just a thought, but I wonder if this means we won't be seeing any Black Tower at all--50,000 words is a big chunk, more than enough to cover not only Pevara but all the mysteries related to the Black Tower.

 

Anyway here is my new theory. Or perhaps thought. Anyway what if we've been going about this completely the wrong way. The general assumption here is that something bad is going to happen to the Aes Sedai--it makes sense, they've been missing in the stronghold of a bunch of Darkfriend channelers for month, having walked in blindly unaware of the true danger...

 

But what if we're wrong? What if the danger is not from Taim to the Aes Sedai, as we've all been assuming. What if the danger is from the Aes Sedai to Taim? Bear with me...

 

A Not So Dire Future

 

Ok, so firstly consider what we do know about the Black Tower situation outside the simple fact that they are missing. From Brandon we know there is about 50,000 words of Pevara being awesome and from Min we know Faolain doesn't have a nasty future--and the inference is that Min actually saw something pleasent in her viewing of the woman, though I suppose that's not certain. So, in total despite the ominous silence, the omens don't seem too dire towards the Aes Sedai.

 

Which makes sense. If Taim had simply intended to kill, forcibly bond or imprison the Aes Sedai, he simply would have done so. That means that someone threw a spanner in the works, and that someone was not him. My first thought when this occurred to me was that it was some sort of flare up between Rebel and Tower Aes Sedai. But that makes no sense of several fronts. One, we've seen Rebels and Tower sisters encounter each other. Tower customs prevail enough to keep peace even then. Why would they choose the Black Tower to throw that to the wind?

 

My second thought is this. What if the spanner was that the Aes Sedai uncovered Taim and his cronies as Darkfriends? I mean think about it. It makes sense. Taim's original plan didn't involve capturing the Aes Sedai, it's unlikely the Aes Sedai would fight each other, and even more unlikely the Lightbound Asha'men would make trouble--therefore the only cause for trouble is for the Aes Sedai to learn the truth about Taim. So my question then becomes...

 

What Would The Aes Sedai Do About It?

 

They were either noticed noticing, or did something to betray they'd realised, because obviously something has gone wrong. But consider this...

 

'The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds'.

 

Now, I've always seperated those two events. The Black Tower Rent. Sisters walk its grounds. The first, to my mind, was always Logain--with his glory to come and his muttering about Taim, that seemed the solid choice. The sisters therefore were Toveine and her crew.

 

But what if not? I was so stuck on the irony of Elaida's assumption that the foretelling meant Toveine would succeed, that I never paused to consider the possibility that the foretelling had nothing to do with Toveine at all. Consider: "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, AND sisters will walk its grounds". It's inclusionary. The rending in blood and flames and sisters walking. All in one sentence, running on from itself sequentially.

 

Now consider the other things that occur in that prophecy.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

The White Tower made whole (under Egwene, fulfilled.). The remnants cast out and scorned (Black Ajah. Fulfilled.). Rand al'Thor facing the Amyrlin's anger (Coming soon). The Black Tower rent in blood and fire (coming soon).

 

All of these things were slated to occur in the original aMoL outline--i.e. all in the one book. And chronologically, even with the split, they are occuring with near concurrency. But, what, the sisters walking its ground happens in tPoD? That's a weird addendum.

 

So what if Toveine and her brood weren't the sisters in Elaida's foretelling. What if, god forbid, Elaida was absolutely right and the rending is done to the Black Tower by Aes Sedai? Pevara being awesome. Faolain having a good future. What if rather than the Aes Sedai being prisoners, or bonded, or in the bad way its actually Taim that's had his ass handed to him.

 

How It Played Out

 

I still think they were imprisoned--there is still the long silence to consider. My suggestion though is that Pevara (awesome chick that she is) escapes (or evades capture) and frees the rest, whereupon the Aes Sedai defeat Taim, or drive him out of the Black Tower, exposing him to the world? I'm not saying they had an easy time of it, or slapped him around and took him prisoner--blood and fire suggest far more drama--but I am suggesting that in they end they came out victorious. That they were the ones left to walk the Black Tower's grounds after this confrontation, and not Taim--and thus fulfilling the sisters walking sections in a more fitting way with the rest of the Foretelling.

 

I'm not the biggest fan of Aes Sedai, but they haven't done a thing right in a long time. They've been used and beaten by Aiel, Sea Folk, Black Ajah, Rand, Asha'men, Seanchan and a few others besides--and rightly so. Those of you who read my thread on the Life and Times of an Aes Sedai; A Study in Stupidity know my thoughts on them as whole.

 

But still, I wouldn't mind seeing them have some victories. And not stuff won by the Wondergirls, but victories for the old guard of Aes Sedai. They've been through the fire, and their stupidities are being exposed and dealt with, if slowly in some cases. Now we needed to remember why Aes Sedai were once respected. We need to see in them the strength and capability that crafed the original aura of the Servants of All. We need to see that they can be redeemed. Not remolded, like what Egwene's doing to them. I want to see if they, in themselves, can be redeemed.

 

And I think Pevara is the one to do this.

[Elgee]

Luckers, I love you.

 

I would LOVE to see this. I'm getting extremely tired of this whole "Aes Sedai are dumb idiots who can't tie their own shoelaces" stuff. They've been the most prominent people in Randland for 3000 years, for crying out loud! They couldn't have done that if every single last one of them (except Moiraine and the WGs) were morons.